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How could Tanks prove themselves Profitable?


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Posted

Well they could give the Pz III one more typ of ammunition the 5cm Panzergranate 40/1

 

look for the tank pictures in the post: ( "HK" is the 5cm Panzergranate 40/1) ( the number behind "HK" is the distance you are able to destroy the tank from if you hit the black zones on the tank. Killing a tank from more than 600m with this ammunition typ is impossible because its loses to much speed when more than 600m from the target  )

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16645-der-bos-waffen-und-munitions-thread/page-6?do=findComment&comment=328912

Posted

That would do it. Opening fire on a T34 from over 1km is suicide today anyway.

Posted (edited)

Ok, so i played a lot today with tanks, some maps were still lame and it took so long to drive somewhere... but some were really nice, tanks spawned maybe 2km away from city and both russians and germans were fighting there. It was the best tank map i have ever played. But... It was the worst experience so far in this game... i asked if they see tank icons, and they did. I was constantly harassed by enemy planes, rockets, bombs and mg, everything was shooting at me. Tank is not made to fight planes, there was nothing i could do, once i only was super lucky and i set one engine on fire but that's all. Hiding in forest does not help, they will always know where you are.

 

It's just horror... no wonder nobody play with tanks, there is no place for tactic, all you do is driving on open field and praying that you won't get hit.

Another thing, when you have a chance to fight with other tanks it's also really poor experience, you want to flank enemy? Hide behind building? pffft those icons will show him where you are, there is no way to sneak from behind.. It's like playing with wallhack but legal one.

 

I also wonder why we got panzer 3 and not 4 :huh:

 

oh and btw, server i was playing on was weird, to capture airfield they had to fly really low (10m) and it would be captured in no time, i kind of felt useless with tank... they were destroying AA guns so easly and AA could not hit anything. I know it's flying sim but when we already have those tanks (and it's really fun thing to have) it would be nice if tanks could get some kind of point in those battles, AA guns should not be so weak, it would be good task for tanks to take down AA guns and capture land structures. Also like before, tank icons should be off, even for other tanks, while in sky you can't really hide, on the ground that's the main tactic, you must hide in forests, drive between buildings.

 

You can't even ambush anyone because they will know you are behind that building 0,1km away..

Edited by InProgress
Posted

 

 

It was the worst experience so far in this game... i asked if they see tank icons, and they did. I was constantly harassed by enemy planes, rockets, bombs and mg, everything was shooting at me. Tank is not made to fight planes, there was nothing i could do, once i only was super lucky and i set one engine on fire but that's all. Hiding in forest does not help, they will always know where you are.

 

You should try one of my servers: the expert one that's always on has no icons for anything, including tanks, or the normal one which is not always up, but has no icons for tanks either. Note however that not all missions on my expert server have tanks, but most do.

 

The harassment by planes stops when the icons disappear. Of course they'll still catch you now and then, but it takes some work for them to spot you. And even if they see you, the lack of bomb aiming reticle means it takes a bit of skill to properly hit a tank, especially if it's moving.

Posted

What is name of server? I prefer expert tho.

Posted

Look for Coconut EXPERT. I switched off the normal server for now, I needed the CPU to encode a video of a round I played yesterday. I'll add the new misson to the expert server. One problem with the expert settings is that you can't easily see the AI, whereas the AI can see you. That's why I prefer the setting with mixed icons, ON for AIs and OFF for players.

Posted

Video from tank battles at Klin:

 

  • Upvote 3
Posted

Tank battles seem much more balance when in closed quarters, PzII can reaload pretty quick! :D

Posted

Wow - that's some fast gun traversal.

Posted

It takes a long time to get anywhere, then you get guys spawning in at an air start, dropping their bomb and finish flight right away to air start and repeat.  Then their are the guys that don't even bother to bomb and finish flight because of the 15 second delay and repeatedly kamikaze.  Repeatedly.

 

On another note, it would be nice to pick one's loadout.

Posted

 

 

It takes a long time to get anywhere, then you get guys spawning in at an air start, dropping their bomb and finish flight right away to air start and repeat. Then their are the guys that don't even bother to bomb and finish flight because of the 15 second delay and repeatedly kamikaze. Repeatedly.

 

But as I said before, this is mainly a mission design issue, it can be pretty easily addressed by mission makers. Move air spawns back, remove icons on tanks, remove aim markers... This makes killing ground units bit more difficult. Choice of terrain is also important. It's almost impossible to see a tank inside a forest from the air.

Posted

Tank battles seem much more balance when in closed quarters, PzII can reaload pretty quick! :D

Yes, but it's still sweaty when in 1v1. T34 can hit Pz3 anywhere, Pz3 has to hit T34 in the turret. I took on 3 Russian tanks before those videos alone in my Pz3, and even though I managed to sneak on my enemies multiple times I only won one encounter.

But when you are multiple people it gets better, if you manage to play as a team better. I'm thinking I should try to organize a tank event where Germans are allowed to use radio, whereas Russians cannot. This might help balance things out.

Posted

PzIV , Infantry & AAA for players Online ...

 

Posted

It was a fun experiment but drivable vehicles really are out of place in a flight sim. For so many reasons.

Posted

What's a plane if it's not a drivable vehicle then?  ;)

It's a flyable vehicle which is more fun.

 

The only way to make the tanks successful would be to make a completely separate game around them. That done with this game engine that might be cool. But the scale and detail for a flight sim is just completely different than a ground war game. No way the two could be mixed.

 

Tanks have already been tried in this game and nobody used them. Rather predictable really. So let's move on.

Posted

When is the Coconut server that full? I have to join it at that time and take part in this tank battle.

Posted

When is the Coconut server that full? I have to join it at that time and take part in this tank battle.

 

You can check on http://coconutside.eu:8083/ to see when someone is online. The expert server is often pretty quiet when TAW is running. The normal server is new, and it got quite a few people last week-end. It's too early to say when/if it will get a stable population.

 

Jg52 and 216th have a recurring event on the expert server thursday evenings, 1900 UTC. It remains open during the event, and everybody can join.

No601_Swallow
Posted

(Even if it's empty - especially if it's empty! - Coconut's server is great for a little ground-attack practice or online aircraft familiarisation, etc. There are plenty of targets, plenty of objectives, the mission tells you what damage you've done if you've managed to hit one of the ground targets, and there's lots of AI flying around to make things interesting. It's great, Coconut!)

Posted

No pardon but This is a WW2 flight sim . There are tanks , ships , A AA ..... Like Il2...

 

If you do is only flight sim . You have to do something like the red Bull air race . Or also the 1937 air race where the bf 109 was won in Switzerland .

  • Upvote 1
Posted (edited)

I was playing on your server yesterday and i was dropping 1800kg bomb at tanks :lol:

Also at the begining it was 1vs5 :| and i got attacked with 3 t34 (not at once) one was on the other side of the river, it took a lot of shots to kill it... but 2 others heard me and the came from behind. I hide behind building and flanked one of them, 3rd one could not see me, when he moved i showed myself and shot at his tower.

 

It really takes a lot to kill t34... the only tactic is to shoot at tower and disable it, then you can finish him off. Also 4rd tank destroyed me with 1 hit :/ but it was still nice to destroy 3 tanks in such a short time.

 

btw i like that captured tanks you can use :D it can really be fun when enemy thinks you are friend (but your own people can shoot you...) would be nice if those tanks had german paintings on them.

Edited by InProgress
Posted

 

 

I was playing on your server yesterday and i was dropping 1800kg bomb at tanks :lol:

I've just enabled payload restrictions so this won't be possible any more. This wasn't a result of your actions by the way, it's something I've started doing with the newer missions and I've upgraded Novomax and Krasno today.

 

 

 

It really takes a lot to kill t34... the only tactic is to shoot at tower and disable it, then you can finish him off. Also 4rd tank destroyed me with 1 hit :/ but it was still nice to destroy 3 tanks in such a short time.

Yes, that tactic works well. You need to come close to hit the turret reliably, and of course during the loooong time it takes to get close to the enemy you risk getting one-shot. Another thing the Pz3 has going for it is the short reload time. You can shoot twice as often as your enemy.

 

 

 

btw i like that captured tanks you can use :D it can really be fun when enemy thinks you are friend (but your own people can shoot you...) would be nice if those tanks had german paintings on them.

You are the first one who reported using that little surprise on Novomax (3 captured T34 available to Germans if they capture the middle spawn). As I understand using the enemy's captured tanks was something that happened back then. IIRC during the liberation of Kalach a column of captured German tanks were used.

Posted

One thing that would help the Panzer a lot (as long as no icons - or radar AI) are smoke cartridges.  The combination of smoke and radio gave the panzers a noticeable advantage in reality.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

How about this tanks? Are they good enough to be profitable? Here some in-game footage!!!!!

post-14161-0-15807400-1475847621_thumb.jpg

Posted (edited)

IIRC 100 jaeger Div had 10 T-34s at Stalingrad, so no real issue there.

 

I don't know how well the game models damage to the T-34 but in general Red Orchestra 2 had a good model for the internal storage.  You should shoot between the 2nd and 3rd road wheels and try to hit the ammo.  GSxlp.jpg

Edited by Mesha44
Posted

I don't think there is detailed dmg system. I was shooting at side of t34 from maybe 20m, it was destroyed after 3-4 hits. Also that ammo front, i don't even think you can penetrate it, i was hitting that place 10 times or more. I also remember when my turret was destroyed so i stuck as driver (broken engine) and i was under fire for like 5min (AT cannons i think) until i got bored getting hit all the time so i respawned) front armor seems impossible to penetrate.

Posted

The Red Orchestra picture describes the T34 in game pretty well, on two points: Almost impossible to destroy from the front, and slow reloading. As for the damage modelling, it's actually pretty detailed. although I don't know how well it fares compared to other games. After the tanks were released, the devs used part of the work to improve internal damage modelling of the planes IIRC.

Posted

I hate how the T-34 shrugs off even the Pak 40 AT guns at medium range. Though one day, we will get the Panther and the tables will turn on the Soviets.

But until then, I think that servers using T-34s should include more AT guns for both sides, as well have have the T-34s attacking(and thus more vulenable to flanking).

Posted (edited)

I can't remember which Pz III we have, but here are the instructions form OKH dated May 1943.

 

5cm L42 using the pz gr 40 ammo (I don't think this is modeled in game) up to 200m at the hull side between the 5th and 6th road wheels, up to 100m at side of turret, with normal AP ammo several hits between 5th and 6th road wheel.

 

5cm L60 using pzgr 40 was not used as it had a tendency for the shell casing to stick in the breach, normal AP 400m at side of hull or turret, 300m at front firing at the drivers hatch with several shots.

 

try that, your mileage may vary.

 

EDIT:  The L60 version is the one we have.

Edited by Mesha44
Posted

I hate how the T-34 shrugs off even the Pak 40 AT guns at medium range. 

 

Pak 38 50mm AT gun is also in game, although this may not have been the case in your example, they do look very similar from a design point of view and can easily be confused with each other unless viewed side by side

 

The 75mm in the Pz IV and Stug (AI) have taken me out in a T34 quite a few times in one of the servers which had many AI, a while ago though

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Posted

I hate how the T-34 shrugs off even the Pak 40 AT guns at medium range. Though one day, we will get the Panther and the tables will turn on the Soviets.

But until then, I think that servers using T-34s should include more AT guns for both sides, as well have have the T-34s attacking(and thus more vulenable to flanking).

 

Have a look at the new mission on the normal server, if you like. Try the Soviet tanks and let me know how it goes :) Spoiler: You'll probably get killed by a Stuka. That's also how I balanced things on the Novomax and Kalach missions, once T34s enter German-controlled territory they get hammered by Stukas (with 37mm gunpods).

One of the German anti-air gun is also good at destroying tanks, but I don't remember which one. Rocket artillery is also lethal, but that one can be frustrating, since it's firing from far away and tanks can't shoot back. There's an array of tools available to mission designers to make things difficult for T34s, but it requires some asymmetric design.

Posted

No, it is the Pak 40, not the 50 mm gun. I was orbiting overhead and watching after using all my ammo on a 2Bt-7s and then a T-34(with the gunpods).

The gun that destroys the T-34 easily would be the 88mm Flak.

216th_Jordan
Posted

No, it is the Pak 40, not the 50 mm gun. I was orbiting overhead and watching after using all my ammo on a 2Bt-7s and then a T-34(with the gunpods).

The gun that destroys the T-34 easily would be the 88mm Flak.

I got disabled and destroyed many times by Pak 40ies. But yes, sloped armor is a thing.

Posted

There needs to be a server where the weather is set to be really really bad(unflable conditions) and thus only has tank spawns and ground missions. I.e. Russian team needs to capture village. German AT guns are placed around the village, a German tank spawn is placed in the village while a group of Russian tanks are placed at the start line of the attack, with a Russian tank spawn.

That way there is an interesting novelty without hampering the pilots with an uninteresting distraction.

Posted

I think it was a mistake to include player controllable tanks. They caused a huge performance hit even for people who have no intention of driving around in a tank in a flight sim :/ they are a distraction that draws people from actually flying an aircraft in a sim with already pretty low player base

I would like to see some benchmarks. I dont see whyba tank would have a heavier impact than a plane. The physics are probabky simpler to model too.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I was about to start watching something on Netflix and go to bed when I noticed an usually high number of players on my normal server ("high number" meaning 10 players or so). I changed my plans and joined the fun. Here is a small video of the events from my point of view:

 

 

It continued on the rainy mission after that. I mostly flew the FW190 has a spotter to help pinpoint the location of enemy tanks, occasionally dropping an SC250 on them (without visible effect, I must add).

  • Upvote 5
-FUCO-Kutatus_Twardy
Posted (edited)

Nice movie coconut. That night i played on your server for the first time and it was awesome ^^
But in general i hope that 
1CGS will add more playable tanks (because that game have a great potiential in ground battles) and commander cupola view.

Edited by -FUCO-Kutatus_Twardy
Posted
That game was awesome!

Did you have video from battle, where you and other player has played against me? That battle was really hard for me, and all the time I had to think carefully. 

Posted

 

 

Did you have video from battle, where you and other player has played against me?

 

Sadly, no video :(

It was good and fun teamwork on our side. I would shoot tracers at you to pinpoint your position to the player driving the tank on the ground.

Posted

Tanks are profitable however they are not worth 60$. (the lowest price they will ever go.)  If done right (which it wasnt.) It could of been very profitable if they had more then 2 people working the entire project and not just on the weekends. Free-To-Play Tank games (the ones on the market) Make more money and have less quality and are built on an investment that pays itself off over time, The devs of this game however want the money upfront and in full and at every turn watch to charge the most that they can not for the players,not for a better game but for themselves. 1C is a very selfish company and their other games including this one have shown time and time again.

Posted

Tenko, you do realize this is a flight sim?

 

Those tanks were just an extra.

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