How could Tanks prove themselves Profitable?

[SAG]

Well i'm one of those silly flight simmers that thinks that the air combat is actually there to support the ground forces 

 

 

When tanks came along for free, i was very pleasently surprised!

we could finally partake in the ground action! 

Planes would finally have something to protect and fight that wasnt AI!

 

Recently Jason stated that Tanks are not (at least this is how i interpreted it) profitable

 

well, i somewhat agree. Tanks, in their current implementation are not profitable. (I know this is primarily a flight sim, but hear me out ) Theyre not profitable because of several reasons, the first being that the PzIII is absolutely no match for the T34, one shot from a T34? boom your gunner is dead!, two Shots? you get the point, on the other hand 5 shots from a PzIII? oh well, let me just take my time and aim a little better at that pesky little Panzer.

 

Then weve got the issue with "availability". Well someone wants to play tanks? sorry, but they are not available in the base SP game, youll have to go MP. ok then, lets go find a server that has tanks, after a while of looking, youll only be able to find a couple of servers with tanks. Awesome! lets ride these tin cans to war!

ok, ive got this thing figured out, now lets head to an objective. After 20 minutes of driving you see an Il2 coming for you! to bad you cant just hide because these servers have Icons ON, you cant pray for a miss either since theyve got aim assist. 

 

 

 

I dont want to sound ranty really, its just that they have so much potential! the game looks awesome on the ground even if its supposed to be  "flight sim terrain" meant to be looked at from a distance.  the tanks handle so well and feel just right!

 

 

so the basic problems with tanks is just "blanace" and "availability", to make them more popular and even profitable i would suggest making a tank that can compete with the T34 for the germans and an equivalent russian of the PZIII. i know, i know, there is to much being worked on right now, but so was the case when they introduced the first two (free) tanks! just squeeze them in however you can, id even pay for the tanks DLC with the old two tanks and the Two new tanks! :D

 

as for server availability, i think it would solve itself out since a balanced set of tanks would make for good matches and competition. How many times ive seen someone in a PzIII leave after getting killed? almost every time it does get frustrating to drive for 25 minutes to get one shot by a super shot AI T34 :'(

 

Well id personally pay for that DLC and i know a bunch of us would too, not to say that it could bring another revenue stream from non-flight simmers.

 

....Tanks wouldnt take nearly as much time and resoruces as planes do (no FM, and not very detailed controls) ...

 

ooh Did i mention that coordinated, non scripted, non-ai tank columns would also make for a more interesting air battle?

ITS A WIN-WIN   

 

 

What are your suggestions on how to make tanks profitable?

 

 

NOTE: please refrain from posting Off Topic too much, this is something ive been wanting to discuss with a wider audience for a while and would really like to listen to what the community has to say 

Edited September 20, 2016 by 19.GIAP//SAG

[LuftManu]

Well, I agree with most of the text but I admit that I would love this feature to be "used" by the modders when the" Mods-On" appear.

 

This is a Flight sim afterall and I think this can also add a lot of new toys to play, the moddedrs are talented.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Ala13_ManuV

[SpaydCBR]

I completely, absolutely 100% agree with all of that!

 

I too am a tank fan and dream of the ground units being player controlled (ALL of them if possible, including the trucks and artillery). Choosing to make the pzIII playable over the pzIV was a decision only one that enjoys shooting himself in the foot would make.

 

I would also like to see the same attention to detail put in making the tanks as they've put in making the planes. Something like the implementation of Red Orchestra 2. Make just one tank type for each side and such a tank set would be a DLC I would gladly pay a decent amount of money for!

 

A tank sim module would also attract a new kind of simmer, other than just the flight simmers, to them game since the tank sim market is pretty lacking right now.

[coconut]

Even on normal servers with icons, it's possible to turn off icons for tanks, it's just a matter for the mission designer to name the tank "NOICON". I'll try to make a quick tank fight mission this week-end. But even if I don't have time, there is, or at least used to be a server dedicated to tanks (with planes too). I don't remember the link, but it should be in the multiplayer forum.

 

To be honest, I don't think the engine currently can compete with the other tank games out there. The terrain is too rough, and the damage model of the environment isn't up to par for a ground-based game.

 

I still think tanks are fun in their current form, but I wouldn't pay extra for them (OK, I probably would, but I'm not sure the general player population would). On the contrary, I think the gunner and tank part of the game should be available in a free limited version of the game. Maybe include one plane on each side (the e7 and the i16?)  and you could get people hooked to the game without having to pay first. For someone who doesn't know the game and is considering to buy, there is a lot of sometimes very harsh reviews out there that can scare one away. But if there is a free demo of the game, that could counter it. Anyway, Jason has said he had thought of doing that after the game has more content available.

 

Another suggestion to help balance the game, at least in normal mode: Make it possible to target-spot a tank similarly to the battlefield games, but make it only available to the Germans. Wasn't their use of radio supposed to give them a significant advantage? If that's too much of an advantage, just let people manually mark an area on the map where they think they have seen an enemy tank.

[DD_Arthur]

Well, I agree with most of the text but I admit that I would love this feature to be "used" by the modders when the" Mods-On" appear.

 

 

Personally, I'm not too bothered about the tanks - though they are done quite well - but I think Manu is right.  They'd make a great subject for modders

 

@SAG; did you know you can get single player missions for tanks?  Check this thread out for some useful links.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25112-tank-missions/

[SAG]

Jason has said he had thought of doing that after the game has more content available.

 

 

i did read that somewhere but i remember jason saying something in the QandA about tanks not being profitable... i might be worng or your info might be more updated than mine, hopefully it is

 

i really like your DEMO idea. that should become a reality! :D

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not too bothered about the tanks - though they are done quite well - but I think Manu is right.  They'd make a great subject for modders

 

@SAG; did you know you can get single player missions for tanks?  Check this thread out for some useful links.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25112-tank-missions/

 

 

i know there are tanks missions but i mean that its included with the game files; most people are not forum dwellers like ourselves and wouldnt even know this. thanks for the link though

 

as for "leaving it to the modders" i mean hell YEAH! but as far as planes go, its to my understanding that MODS ON wont allow for changing the Planes, so it wouldnt be a surprise if MODs ON wouldnt let us mod the tanks

 

anyway, i think that it would really be good if we had a small Tank DLC to balance what we already have, and to not seggregate the community in MP, once that has been established i would love to leave it to modders (assuming the Devs allow us to create such things)  

.

 

 

we already have very organized flights im MP and that is protecting AI tanks with scripted routes, can you imagine escorting a Human AI column and having your air cover tell you .- theres a lot of AT guns up ahead- -Copy, rerouting through Abganerovo-

 

Maaan i drool over that!   

[Aap]

I think there is just too little action for tank players. Distances that are very short for planes are quite long for tanks. So even if your target is only one grid away from your tank base, it takes you half an hour to get to your target with the 15-20 km/h that the tanks are moving. That half hour usually means no action and just hoping that enemy will not spot you from his plane. If there was more close quarters fighting in Stalingrad or some village, it could attract more tank players.

And indeed Pz.III is such an underdog against T34.

[Cybermat47]

You can play as tanks in singleplayer, just check out the missions sharing corner

 

And I would pay for a playable Panzer IV

[SYN_Mike77]

I seem to recall that the 1942 PZ IV was more anti infantry than a good tank killer.  The PZ III was the tank killer.  The Germans really didn't have much to combat the T 34 till the PzV (Panther came out in '43.  Now if only the Devs were churning out an eastern front '43 based game....Oh wait!

[SAG]

One can hope! I mean give us a pzv then!!

 

The thing is tanks might be something that new players may get dissapointed about. They are advertised as part od the product when you look at the storefront..

 

It says "player controllable tanks" or something like it.

 

Same thing would happen if there was a demo with the tanks...

 

Ooh the demo tanks were awesome! Lets buy BoX!! Were those two tanks the only tanks?

 

So i think the tanks could be profitable through a demo if there were more in the full product and they could also be profitable by selling them as "collector tanks"?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I seem to recall that the 1942 PZ IV was more anti infantry than a good tank killer.  The PZ III was the tank killer.  The Germans really didn't have much to combat the T 34 till the PzV (Panther came out in '43.  Now if only the Devs were churning out an eastern front '43 based game....Oh wait!

 

The early Panzer IV infantry support had a short barrel 75mm, but the newer ones with the long 75mm came around spring 1942, as even the upgraded long 50mm of the Panzer III (from mid-1941)  wasn't considered enough to deal reliably with T-34s and KV-1s. From there on the tanks inverted roles and the Pz IV started being the AT tank with the Pz III being the infantry support one (Panzer III couldn't support the long 75mm cannon, only the short one).

Edited September 20, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[Gump]

sure its a flight sim, but everyone (generally) loves variety. i liked the tanks more than i expected i would when they were introduced - a different kind of challenge. i wouldnt pay for them though - they are just not used enough nor developed enough.

.

that said, i agree with the OP (and others) about the obstacles to its use...

.

i'd also add that tanks should be able to capture enemy airfields, but implementation of this has lead to friendly fire penalties and bans when the friendly team tries to kill the tanks and hits the AF items (with a bomb). this is a serious problem.

.

then ive seen tank missions set up to deliberately avoid the air missions. separated by impossible tank distances. the tanker is limited to the one or two goals and any air support is by chance. most of the air war has no concern for the tanks or their goals - most of the time. the tanker is left out in the cold, all alone.

.

and i will say that it is a HUGE problem to place a tank base far away from any targets (as in active enemy airfields), as ive seen in a server or two. IF you start driving towards a target at the mission start, you get maybe 1 chance before the mission ends, and that involves a LONG time of just driving. very discouraging.

.

the popular full real MP server mission developers/servers have not CONSISTENTLY set up inviting tank scenarios. it doesnt take long for the bad scenarios to lose participants and make it look like no one wants tanks. on the other side of the coin, the most popular WOL server gets filled up with pilots, so taking some of those slots for tankers could be a point of contention and may anger some pilots that are denied a spot. that might be a reason more tank missions arent created.

.

.

 i think the way to make the ground war 'fit' into a viable solution for all is to have a separate sim/game that is developed for the tanks, but uses the same map as the filght sim. then the 2 (or 3 or 4 or...) different sims just employ simplistic models to represent the 'other' sims' vehilces/persons, controlled by minimal inter-sim control protocol.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gump

[hames123]

In multiplayer, there could be objectives where a large group of AI tanks spawns in at the Tank Base, and then attacks an objective, which is guarded by AT guns, other tanks and Artilery. Then, players can control player tanks and support the attack without being the only attacker, preventing everyone concentrating on killing him, and thus saving him the fustration of getting kill in the tank after an hour of driving.

[SAG]

In multiplayer, there could be objectives where a large group of AI tanks spawns in at the Tank Base, and then attacks an objective, which is guarded by AT guns, other tanks and Artilery. Then, players can control player tanks and support the attack without being the only attacker, preventing everyone concentrating on killing him, and thus saving him the fustration of getting kill in the tank after an hour of driving.

 

Yes thats more or less what i had in mind. We could spawn in the frontline near AI tanks or perhaps we could take co trol of AI tanks that already enroute

[ShamrockOneFive]

I just wrote something about the really cool combined arms aspect of IL-2 with the two tanks available.

 

I'd love to see two more added to the stable at some point to up the interest in that area. I know its not a focus (and nor should it be) but it is really great that you have a tactical air battle going on with actual human controlled vehicles operating below. That's spectacular.

[SAG]

I just wrote something about the really cool combined arms aspect of IL-2 with the two tanks available.

 

I'd love to see two more added to the stable at some point to up the interest in that area. I know its not a focus (and nor should it be) but it is really great that you have a tactical air battle going on with actual human controlled vehicles operating below. That's spectacular.

 

Yeah Shamrock actually your blog is what inspired me to start this threa, i posted twice there but they didnt seems to save so i stared the discussion here

 

 

two more tanks should greatly improve tank action! heck if only i knew how to mod one in id be giving the germans a PzIV right now for balance (and that is coming from a almost completely ally pilot)

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I love the fact that we have tanks but I really think that it will be very hard to make a good tank game out of this sim because of the difference between the large expanses needed for a flight sim and the relatively smaller distances needed for tanks!

 

What I mean is can this engine do both i.e. give a immersive environment on the small scale for tanks and keep the large scale for aircraft! The term that comes to mind is "jack of all ....".

 

So there could be a couple of routes: 

 

1) Make a balance of performance so tanks and planes can be there but both wont be as good as they can be

 

2) and 3) make it one way or the other 

 

with 2) or 3) you will have a good flight sim with not very good but ok tank sim or the opposite which will not happen.

 

I just dont think the devs have the time to make a truly immersive tanks sim because of the scaling and if it is a sub par tank sim then tankies will go somewhere else.

 

I guess what I end up thinking is that for it to make a profit the focus on tanks and planes would have to be the same which might be possible with x funding but ..... aint gona happen here. So we could have tanks but they will never really be a product that the team would be really proud of

[SAG]

I love the fact that we have tanks but I really think that it will be very hard to make a good tank game out of this sim because of the difference between the large expanses needed for a flight sim and the relatively smaller distances needed for tanks!

 

What I mean is can this engine do both i.e. give a immersive environment on the small scale for tanks and keep the large scale for aircraft! The term that comes to mind is "jack of all ....".

 

So there could be a couple of routes: 

 

1) Make a balance of performance so tanks and planes can be there but both wont be as good as they can be

 

2) and 3) make it one way or the other 

 

with 2) or 3) you will have a good flight sim with not very good but ok tank sim or the opposite which will not happen.

 

I just dont think the devs have the time to make a truly immersive tanks sim because of the scaling and if it is a sub par tank sim then tankies will go somewhere else.

 

I guess what I end up thinking is that for it to make a profit the focus on tanks and planes would have to be the same which might be possible with x funding but ..... aint gona happen here. So we could have tanks but they will never really be a product that the team would be really proud of

 

 

None of use are calling for a full tank sim at the same level of detail as the planes, just a small addon to the current sim that can enhance gameplay greatly without taking too much effort/resources from the team.

 

Two more tanks made drivable pretty much and that would make the already existing tank aspect of the game into a much more enjoyable one. which shouldnt be a sepparate product.

[Medicated]

I think you hit the nail on the head with most of the reasons for why tanks haven't done as well as they probably should (or hoped for by the devs). A big reason that I haven't played them in a while is the balance issue. For planes, a better pilot can come out victorious in a lesser plane to an easier extent than a similar situation in a tank. I bet if the two tanks that were introduced were a Tiger and KV-85 (or T34-85 or IS-1), then there would be tons of people using them (I just use that as an example, I'm not staying those tanks should be in the current game).

 

I thoroughly enjoy trudging across a battle field, having tracers or small AT rounds hit in front of me and to see billowing plumes of black smoke in the back ground, all while planes are dogfighting and bombs are exploding with rockets screaming past. It's very immersive and done better than more popular options available currently for tank warfare, but it does get frustrating when you keep ricocheting off a T-34 over and over, then he swivels his turret nonchalantly and BOOM, you're dead. So better balance would certainly help, be it in a form of a Pz-IV F2 or some other tank for the Germans.

 

I would also love to have a single player campaign mode, but in all honesty the devs should focus on the air aspect and leave an undertaking like that alone. If this could be created in a meaningful way by the community, that would be awesome.

[SAG]

I think you hit the nail on the head with most of the reasons for why tanks haven't done as well as they probably should (or hoped for by the devs). A big reason that I haven't played them in a while is the balance issue. For planes, a better pilot can come out victorious in a lesser plane to an easier extent than a similar situation in a tank. I bet if the two tanks that were introduced were a Tiger and KV-85 (or T34-85 or IS-1), then there would be tons of people using them (I just use that as an example, I'm not staying those tanks should be in the current game).

 

I thoroughly enjoy trudging across a battle field, having tracers or small AT rounds hit in front of me and to see billowing plumes of black smoke in the back ground, all while planes are dogfighting and bombs are exploding with rockets screaming past. It's very immersive and done better than more popular options available currently for tank warfare, but it does get frustrating when you keep ricocheting off a T-34 over and over, then he swivels his turret nonchalantly and BOOM, you're dead. So better balance would certainly help, be it in a form of a Pz-IV F2 or some other tank for the Germans.

 

I would also love to have a single player campaign mode, but in all honesty the devs should focus on the air aspect and leave an undertaking like that alone. If this could be created in a meaningful way by the community, that would be awesome.

 

 

Medicated, youve just described a great scene that is common in tank gameplay, the balance issue aside, could you imagine this in VR?      

[Medicated]

Medicated, youve just described a great scene that is common in tank gameplay, the balance issue aside, could you imagine this in VR?

I don't have VR, but if I did and could play out that scene, I would wet myself...

[-TBC-AeroAce]

None of use are calling for a full tank sim at the same level of detail as the planes, just a small addon to the current sim that can enhance gameplay greatly without taking too much effort/resources from the team.

 

Two more tanks made drivable pretty much and that would make the already existing tank aspect of the game into a much more enjoyable one. which shouldnt be a sepparate product.

 

 

But the fact that no one is calling for a full tank sim is the point im making! With out a full sim it is not profitable because tankies will go to other things like WOT etc. Why would a tank person want to come play on what is a flight sim? So unless they can put the same effort in to tanks as planes it wont really be a project that can be truly proffitable! 

 

It might get extra sales indirectly from the aircraft people that also like tanks but it will never get just tank people unless it is equal.

 

Just saying and Im all with u for making it a thing.

 

Ok how about this "How Can tanks get extra income to the overall project?"

 

And even that is questionable

[-TBC-AeroAce]

to make a proffit u need to have a demand! If u like tanks would u pay 70 dolla to get a flight sim with a couple of tanks! 

 

No i would not I would buy a tank sim! Hence why I am saying u need to have equal dev interest to get proffit otherwise it is side money

[-TBC-AeroAce]

SAG I really respect u and this is not an argument against u but Im looking at the money side of it and I feel I have a point!

 

If this was a bigger budget team it might work but it is not!

[SAG]

But the fact that no one is calling for a full tank sim is the point im making! With out a full sim it is not profitable because tankies will go to other things like WOT etc. Why would a tank person want to come play on what is a flight sim? So unless they can put the same effort in to tanks as planes it wont really be a project that can be truly proffitable! 

 

It might get extra sales indirectly from the aircraft people that also like tanks but it will never get just tank people unless it is equal.

 

Just saying and Im all with u for making it a thing.

 

Ok how about this "How Can tanks get extra income to the overall project?"

 

And even that is questionable

 

People here arent for the full Tank SIM experience, we're mostly pilots but that doesnt mean that theyre not interested in a gameplay feature that can give variety to the game as well as improve the current Flight SIM indirectly.

 

"How can tanks get extra income to the overall project" might as well be the name of the thread, the idea is the same, im not asking for profitability in a dedicated Tank Sim, i wouldnt buy that (or who knows i love SIMs set in WWII) im talking about a gameplay aspect that adds value to the current game, and yes, bringing players from other types of games into a mostly Planes sim might bring in new customers that might even become pilots, however small the profits are, if the resources invested are outweighted by the income, than its probably worth it. 

 

How many resources did it take for the devs to create the current Tanks? 

perhaps if they sold us a couple of new tanks then it would be worth their effort, wheather it brings money in directly or indirectly doesnt really matter. 

 

and dont forget that we have a lot of WWII machine fans here (like myself) and not only Flying WWII machine fans.

SAG I really respect u and this is not an argument against u but Im looking at the money side of it and I feel I have a point!

 

If this was a bigger budget team it might work but it is not!

 

 

Aero its a discussion, and not a heated one at that. were not attacking each other. deliberation makes for better ideas. and i respect your opinion as well, but try to look at things from a different view sometimes 

[SAG]

It probably wouldnt be 70dollar DLC either it would be an addon much like the ju52 or yakb

[Gambit21]

I think tanks could be great fun for change-up here and there in Multiplayer, if done well.

 

That said I think manning an AA gun at a base could be great fun as well, or even on a train, vehicle in a convoy etc.

I'm not saying I think resources should be diverted to this...just saying it would be fun here and there on those nights

when you don't feel like thinking to the point where flying sounds fun, and you just want to shoot things.

 

I also won't mind if we never see this - just bring on the Zero.

[GrendelsDad]

We had a tank mission on Friday night bomber flights and it was intense fighting in a city/wooded area. Mission was well put together. And no icons.

[unreasonable]

I can see why people like driving around in the tanks - for a while. They do look great and it gives a new insight into just how good the maps are. But....what you do not want to do is try to attract people to the game with a feature that does not work very well.

 

A CFS can get away with concentrating on the air battle with AAA and some ground objects to act as targets. 

 

If you want to be a ground war simulator you have to integrate the action of armour, infantry, AT, artillery; plus, of course, airpower at a minimum. (Then there are mines, obstacles and fortifications, logistics, morale.....)

 

This is very difficult and BoX is nowhere near doing it, hardly surprising as it was never designed to do so.

 

Having a ground war simulation without functional infantry is like having a CFS without bombers.

 

I have no problem with the experiment, and if some modders can add a few more tanks, great. But given how hard it is to get beyond the "make a tank, drive it around, shoot a tank" stage I think Jason & Co. did the right thing in putting the idea on the back-burner.

Edited September 21, 2016 by unreasonable

[hames123]

But it could just be a simple town attack with 8 AI T-34s + player T-34s attacking lines of German AT guns, with the aircraft attacking the tanks and guns. Thus, there will still be targets for aircraft and a role for them to play.

I.E. if the Sturmoviks do not destroy the 88s and 75s fast enough, they start destroying the advancing tanks.

The ground war would greatly add to the immersion of the sim, especially in an Eastern Front sim.

[SAG]

But it could just be a simple town attack with 8 AI T-34s + player T-34s attacking lines of German AT guns, with the aircraft attacking the tanks and guns. Thus, there will still be targets for aircraft and a role for them to play.

I.E. if the Sturmoviks do not destroy the 88s and 75s fast enough, they start destroying the advancing tanks.

The ground war would greatly add to the immersion of the sim, especially in an Eastern Front sim.

 

 

I agree, we could leave a lot to the mission designers just like it is with air combat in MP, all that would be required for this is the tanks themselves, which we only really need two more of and then the Devs can leave the rest up to us! this wouldnt demand much from the developers so they can focus on their current plans and still we would get a SIM with a lot more gameplay potential.

[hames123]

Also, it is worth noting that aircraft can have a crucial impact on the ground war. For example, the German commanders at Mortain concluded that the main reason they failed was due to the constant RAF Typhoon strikes.

[coconut]

i did read that somewhere but i remember jason saying something in the QandA about tanks not being profitable... i might be worng or your info might be more updated than mine, hopefully it is

 

i really like your DEMO idea. that should become a reality! :D

 

Jason said that tanks were not popular enough to justify further development. What I was refering to was the free demo.

[Fliegel]

I agree! And Im thinking about it since I heard the Q&A.

 

Adding PzIV F2 and perhaps KV-1 would be great and I would surely pay for that! But main problem is not balance in my opinion, but rather lack of missions (flags aren exactly exciting), no single player (quick)mission and such.

 

Games like WoT and WT produce a lot of tank geeks who feel that those games are just not quite as immesive as they could so I think that the idea of bringing more players Jason spoke about was right. It is just that people almost do not know about it and honestly - it is not much playable for reason stated. Driving for 40 minutes isnt that fun as fly for same time. And then guarding a flag pole doesnt feel good either.

 

So yeah, to do it right it would need more testing and perhaps some new features...

[Feathered_IV]

I'd wondered about the news that Albert had left Bos' as project leader and was managing another 1c title.  I thought a tank sim seemed likely with a modified DN2 game engine.

[unreasonable]

Oh oh.

 

Commander - "Enemy tank at 500 metres at 2 o'clock. Load APCR!"

 

Gunner - "I cannot sir! We have not unlocked it yet!"

[Fliegel]

While infantry often operate with tanks it is absolutely no need for it. It can go without AT mines, infantry and such. Unless people would play purely infantry tank like Churchill crocodile.

 

Similary air combat in MP already can manage witout many aspect of war just fine and similary tank games managed witout it.

[216th_Jordan]

For me personally, tanks added so much to the game! What is missing is some singleplayer playability and that its not fleshed out for multiplayer. (biggest server has none for example) When you are in a tank it is awesome to ask for airstrikes or airsupport and give back info to the airforce guys. I've just spent hours in multiplayer driving around the beautiful landscape (using the map to keep the tank driving without further input). I really really hope that the tank feature will be developped further in the game or that if modders take this on, that it will be integrated into the base game for everyone to enjoy from the start.

Edited September 21, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Enfield]

I think a better idea (If we are committed to adding something to ground forces) would be to add vehicles that would have a greater impact on the main focus of the game, namely the planes. How you ask?

 

Self Propelled Anti Aircraft Artillery. 

 

Allowing players to trundle about objectives on the map in say a Wirbelwind would be quite enjoyable I feel. Airfield under attack? Hop in a AAA vehicle to protect it. 

 

As to how you make that profitable..make the more fun variants premium?

[wtornado]

I would like to be an 88mm battery officer/gunner

to shoot at tanks and planes.

 

Controlling an 88mm flak gun did better on the

Eastern front than their German tanks

 

Me on the left with my binoculars telling the  gunner

who,where and when to shoot.

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by WTornado