Think navigating is hard? Try catching up on navigation notes in a cloud ... in the middle of an engagement!

[Bearfoot]

http://propnturret.com/tully/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2464#p12903

 

 

"""This reminds me of one of the many discussions I had with Tom Cheek, who along with Dan Sheedy had been the close escorts in their F4F-4s for VT-3 at Midway. Having received a riveting description of the fight, and ending up alone. I then asked the seemingly innocuous question, "So, after that long fight, how did you know where you were to start figuring out the navigational problem to get back home?." He reply really caught me off guard: "While I was in the cloud I began to review my course notes during the fight and started plotting it on my plot board." 

My instant reply was "You kept navigational notes DURING the dogfight?" "Oh yes" he replied. "Throughout the fight I made notes on my knee pad of what my course was on the compass and how long I flew in that direction. When I was clear, I plotted all of it, estimated how many miles away I was from the ship and how long it would take me to get there, and then triangulated that with the ship's option course, figured out my course and set out ...and double checked it because I couldn't afford any mistakes. Then I descended down to about 500 feet and estimated the wind drift off the wave motion, recalculated my course, and set out. You hope you meet up with others on the way home, but I didn't. I came back all the way alone..."""

[Feathered_IV]

Very interesting to read that. The ocean floor must hold quite a few airmen who would say "Oh no, I never kept navigational notes during a dogfight"

[Mastermariner]

Some info here

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/21346-carrier-aircraft-navigation-how-did-they-do-it/

The YE-ZB was important

http://timeandnavigation.si.edu/multimedia-asset/zb-1-radio-homing-adapter-and-security-cover

http://timeandnavigation.si.edu/multimedia-asset/ye-zb-chart-new-hebrides

 

Master

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

Seriously impressive

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd assume that Americans also had this and used them:

 

If any Japanese aircraft lost its way it could get back to its ship following the signal, of course during the hostilities aircraft carriers were supposed to maintain strict radio silence so the signal was suppressed as well, but in such cases pilot could request signal to be turned on if need be. 

[Sokol1]

Once a time... in IL-2:46: 

 

https://youtu.be/qVOaLweCHx8?t=248

 

If "BoM'y" have at least this, good. 

[Aap]

I have been wondering if there was something more to the Japanese system besides the simple homing indicator, which would have allowed the enemy also to pick  up the signal and locate their carrier. The american Hayrake system is kind of secure, because the enemy could not home on it without knowing which morse letter corresponds to which sector, but how did the Japanese make sure that enemy could not pick up their signal? Maybe changed frequencies and sent the signal only for a short time at a set time, so their pilots could pick it up, but the risk of enemy capturing it being low? Anybody has more knowledge about it?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

The Americans had radio compass like the ones Hiromachi posted, but only on big planes like the B-25 as far as I know, the wildcat at least didn't have it.

 

 

For the planes which didn't have this system there was a radio frequency which would broadcast determined letters in morse code towards certain directions, and the pilots receiving those would know at which relative bearing from the carrier they were. For the land based airfields the code was fixed, but for the carriers the code changed everyday so it couldn't be easily located. Edit: This is what Mastermariner posted before

 

 

 

 

In 1946 this system was implemented in Team Daidalos update 4.10 IIRC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since I received the O letter, i'm between 270º and 300º from the carrier, that means I have to travel between the 90º and 120º bearings to return to it.

Edited September 22, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[Lusekofte]

I question the fact that the Zero got radio compasses , I read some did not even have radios, or ones that worked. Everything about Japanese fighter during Midway was based on weight. I read countless of pilot stories about Pasific in the Magazine Flypast. They all said navigation was the key of survival . Not only because of dogfight, but many time they operated on  the verge of fuel capacity and could not afford drift or miscalculation. Ferry flight in medetiranian done by RAF was always escorted by a Blenheim for navigational aid and naval fighters often was twoseaters for a navigator. Ofcourse you pay attention to navigation in PTO  

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Well, at least some did have it, you can find one of the gauges Hiromachi posted and the circular radio antenna inside the canopy at the back of the pilot. Don't know about the ones which served in Midway though

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[Sokol1]

IL-2 A6M2 Zekes have this (radio) Home Direction Finder instrument.

 

American planes like F4F, SBD... don't have Radio Compass (like B-25) but use their Repeater Compass to set the course informed by YE-ZB Morse Code, and fly "needle on needles".

Edited September 22, 2016 by Sokol1

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I question the fact that the Zero got radio compasses , I read some did not even have radios, or ones that worked. Everything about Japanese fighter during Midway was based on weight. I read countless of pilot stories about Pasific in the Magazine Flypast. 

Pretty much every aircraft designer had to be conscious of weight of his design and effect it creates on performance. But weight of any internal equipment, electronics, armament and ammunition was not taken into account as empty load and in this regard in A6M2 weight of those elements was somewhat minor part (empty load was 1754 kg, standard load was 2482 kg and most of it was coming from fuel and ammunition):

- Type 96 Ku Model 1 voice/telegraph consisting of transmitter and receiver - 7.4 kg,

- Dynamotor for radio set - 7.0 kg, 

- Carrier Wave (CW) teletype key - 2.5 kg, 

- Type 1 Ku Model 3 Radio Compass or Radio Direction Finder - 11.5 kg,  

- Directional loop antenna and wiring - 10.75 kg, 

- Dynamotor for RDF unit - 1.8 kg. 

Total weight would be less than 41 kilograms. That's a weight of one ammo box for Type 97 7.7 mm machine gun (680 rounds). 

 

All Zeros had radios but some of the land based units made decision to remove them, or most importantly, cut the big wooden antenna that was behind the cockpit which reduced drag. And so they also dumped radio sets. But that was an individual decision of a pilot and in carrier based units it was forbidden, all Zeros had to take those.

 

The reason Japanese removed radios and cut antenna was not because radios were of poor quality, quite the opposite - radios were relatively good quality although simpler than American or German designs and with one channel only (but aerial communication looked a bit different in Japanese air service as well). Actual problem was that of correctly installing the radios with proper wiring, shielding and grounding of the equipment. It seems that little attention was devoted to this problem until later in the war.  Insufficient shielding of the ignition system of the aircraft caused interference with reception of signals to a great degree, as did static charges generated by the passage of the airframe through the atmosphere. It appears that there were very few officers at fighter group level who were familiar with radio systems or who cared to conduct effective programs to maintain them. The resulting poor performance led fighter pilots to cease using the radios and resort to the old visual methods, which of course led to tragedies. 

 

Edit: Here are drawings of Zero, Val and Kate cockpits - I've marked the Homing Direction Finders:

 

 

A6M2

 

D3A1

 

B5N2

 

And also a better view on radio and radar arrangement of B5N2

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[beepee]

Great thread.

 

Lots of helpful info.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

[352nd_Wheels]

At least when we get "lost" we can hit refly.

 

Great thread.

 

Lots of helpful info.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

 

I agree.

 

 

Wheels