American fighter ace & Engineer "Kit" Carson criticizes the BF109E/G and FW-190.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Revolutionary design Lucas  

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Also, since Kit can draw his conclusions from only one Test made from an early model, I will base my judgement on this:

 

 

Since this speaks for all Spitfires I can quite decidedly say that the Brits must have been willing to sacrifice a lot of their Pilots in inferior Aircraft.

Having an Aircraft without negative G ability seems rather foolish to me as well. Adding to that such an outdated Propeller Design seems outright Homicidal from the British Airforce.

The poor Roll Ability could be easily exploited by the enemy as well.

Especially Compared to the Friedrich and Gustav it can only be said that but it was outclassed by 1941 and by 1943 was manifestly obsolete.

Nein nein nein nein! You have all got it all wrong let's check the history Let's check with the guys that were there.

[Youtube]

 

They wanted the spitfire goddamnit!

[Asgar]

Custard I can smell the British bias from over here

[E69_geramos109]

Geramos, nobody is saying that swept wings don't have their value, but stating the Me-262 was somehow the mother of all designs because it had a little bit of wing sweep is a bit comical. I mean, check out this sexy Burgess-Dunne A-55, circa 1916. The best design of the past century, by a long shot.

 

Of corse the 262 was not perfect. Only was the beguining. And probably the P80 could have better specs against the 262. More power, more reliable engines... But you can not compare them. They never match and i think is a stupid thing to say that the P80 was the best wwii fighter 

[E69_geramos109]

Nein nein nein nein! You have all got it all wrong let's check the history Let's check with the guys that were there.

 

They wanted the spitfire goddamnit!

Please not Galland again! Read all the part of the book.

 Quote from his book The First And The Last:

 

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Goering clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Me109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Custard I can smell the British bias from over here

I grew up reading Battle and Hotspur, what do you expect

[Dr_Molem]

I always say, in any flight sim, that if you fly Luftwaffe and your objective is to outmaneuver Spitfires, you have to fly FW-190, and not Me-109.

 

How a 109 would outmaneuver a Spitfire ? It turns about the same, to much worse, depending on variants, as it rolls about the same, to much worse, again depending on variants. While the 190 can pull more G than the Spitfire at high speed and rolls far better at all speeds, in fact it just has to avoid low speed sustained turn and it can do everything against a Spitfire...

[E69_geramos109]

 

I always say, in any flight sim, that if you fly Luftwaffe and your objective is to outmaneuver Spitfires, you have to fly FW-190, and not Me-109.

 

How a 109 would outmaneuver a Spitfire ? It turns about the same, to much worse, depending on variants, as it rolls about the same, to much worse, again depending on variants. While the 190 can pull more G than the Spitfire at high speed and rolls far better at all speeds, in fact it just has to avoid low speed sustained turn and it can do everything against a Spitfire...

 

Different ways to fly. You can search the best position to your shot in a vertical fight and to perform yo yos and chandelles. With the foke you spend more enegy but you dont need to stay close your enemy. 

In my experience on the sims i frefer the 109. 190 on 46 was also great but only if you are the fastest plane of that map.

Execpt that....it can't. Take A5 vs a typical merlin 63 IX. They are both about as fast, with minor differences at different altitudes. Spirfire turns and climbs and accelerates way better. The only advantages fw190 has are its better roll rate and dive. Fw can pretty much only attack with height advantage, otherwise it has to quickly flee after merge. Pretty simple if you have any experience flying the two in different sims. 

You can run away if you are in trouble. On the deck you are faster. You can also outmanouber the spit in a highspeed spiral, split S followed by barrel rolls and this kind of manouvers. If you have experience on the sims you have to know who is Leo, JagerKampf and some more foke aces. 

[Dr_Molem]

Execpt that....it can't. Take A5 vs a typical merlin 63 IX. They are both about as fast, with minor differences at different altitudes. Spirfire turns and climbs and accelerates way better. The only advantages fw190 has are its better roll rate and dive. Fw can pretty much only attack with height advantage, otherwise it has to quickly flee after merge. Pretty simple if you have any experience flying the two in different sims. 

 

The 190 can stop close maneuvering if things turn bad, and start climbing at 400 to 450 kph (constant), the Spit can't follow and has to break the fight.

 

The funny side is that we are talking about a 1v1 situation, now imagine what would happen in a squadron vs squadron combat.

[E69_geramos109]

Well well well, would you look at that. Your not gonna question the great galland now are you, 109 fanboys? 

Of corse spits I were more manoubrable on the horizontal in a medium speed combat. The speed where you have to escort bombers. You only take the part you want to hear.

 

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Goering clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Me109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."

Edited October 3, 2016 by E69_geramos109

[Crump]

 

 

Fw can pretty much only attack with height advantage, otherwise it has to quickly flee after merge. Pretty simple if you have any experience flying the two in different sims. 

 

 

 

 

The Focke Wulf was much more agile than the Spitfire.  When a Spitfire tried to get on it's tail....it simply got out of the way.

But that is actual aerial combat during World War II....not a "sim"......

[Wulf]

In the world of the "sim" everything appears to roll as fast as the 190 - even aircraft that initially incorporated wingtip tanks and were reported as being 'very heavy on the controls'.  Hang on a sec, tickle in my throat  .. cough, cough La-5 cough, cough ....

Edited October 3, 2016 by Wulf

[ZachariasX]

This thread is better than Netflix. Hit F5 for binge arguing.

[NZTyphoon]

Still going? Who's winning?

[E69_geramos109]

The  Burgess-Dunne A-55 I think.

[GridiroN]

Still going? Who's winning?

The funny part is, I posted this thread quite some time ago and only received 2 responses. I didn't think anyone was interested until I checked back a week later and it was a debate firestorm XD

In the world of the "sim" everything appears to roll as fast as the 190 - even aircraft that initially incorporated wingtip tanks and were reported as being 'very heavy on the controls'.  Hang on a sec, tickle in my throat  .. cough, cough La-5 cough, cough ....

 

Ill agree with this. In my experience, the FW190 doesnt have a particularly good roll rate vs the other planes in this sim for some reason. They all seem to roll at relatively the same rate. 

[GridiroN]

The 190 can stop close maneuvering if things turn bad, and start climbing at 400 to 450 kph (constant), the Spit can't follow and has to break the fight.

 

The funny side is that we are talking about a 1v1 situation, now imagine what would happen in a squadron vs squadron combat.

 

I don't understand why people say things like this as if the persuing plane is completely out of options purely because it's climb rate is the poorer of the two. 

 

Any plane can pursue any other plane from a starting position of a dogfight more than adequately enough to simply shoot the climbing plane. Even an IL2 can, with relative ease, shoot down a BF109 if the 109 simply does a straight climb without trading away energy to either climb faster or immelman. 

[Kurfurst]

Come to think of, how come that Reginald Mitchell vs Willy Messerschmitt is NOT yet featured in those Epic Rap Battles of History? Surely it would be hilarious. :D

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

That needs to happen ASAP.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

 

 

Any plane can pursue any other plane from a starting position of a dogfight more than adequately enough to simply shoot the climbing plane. Even an IL2 can, with relative ease, shoot down a BF109 if the 109 simply does a straight climb without trading away energy to either climb faster or immelman.

 

Nonsense. Air combat is played with cards containing maximum performance specifications. The attacking party announces which spec card they will use in their next move, and its value. The defending party then replies with the value of their own card of the same type. Whoever has the highest value, wins. The engagement follows a best-of-three format, wherein the first duellist to win two rounds is considered the victor.

 

If the engagement happens in a group, the winner earns three points while the loser gets zero. Once all duels have been fought within the group, the two duellists with the most points progress into the knock-out stage. In the knock-out stage, the winner of the duel progresses onto the next round, eliminating the other until there are only two fighter pilots left in the world. They shall compete for the title of Ultimate Top Gun Hartmann Maverick.

 

Source: Robert E. Shaw, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Manoeuvring

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, that Spitfire in the beginning didn't play it's deck of cards well at all. 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I don't understand why people say things like this as if the persuing plane is completely out of options purely because it's climb rate is the poorer of the two. 

 

Any plane can pursue any other plane from a starting position of a dogfight more than adequately enough to simply shoot the climbing plane. Even an IL2 can, with relative ease, shoot down a BF109 if the 109 simply does a straight climb without trading away energy to either climb faster or immelman. 

As demonstrated here. 109s Knights are an arrogant bunch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnZvMpdlY

[II./JG77_Manu*]

good old VTOL IL2

[Max_Damage]

I agree with most of what is written although bf109g was not obsolete on the russian front like he says in 1942. It only became obsolete with the introduction of la5FN in the summer 1943.

 

British would have spitfire IX a lot earlier then that and yes it probably could make bf109g obsolete. the low altitude p51 A could, too.

[Dr_Molem]

I agree with most of what is written although bf109g was not obsolete on the russian front like he says in 1942. It only became obsolete with the introduction of la5FN in the summer 1943.

 

British would have spitfire IX a lot earlier then that and yes it probably could make bf109g obsolete. the low altitude p51 A could, too.

 

So i suppose you changed your mind ? Good...

[Max_Damage]

So i suppose you changed your mind ? Good...

I never talked about that.

 

Well actually lets get this straight.

 

+18 psi MK IX is worse then late G10/G14.

 

+25 psi MK IX is better.

 

This going by flight stats. But bf109 also has crap controllability apparently. So it is a topic that can be discussed. If the 25 psi MK9 were rare, then the spitfire and bf109 would be approx equal to each other.

 

Bf109 were obsolete compared to yak3, la5fn and la7 though.

 

But this dude claims bf109 was obsolete by 1942 which is BS apparently since a spitfire V is in no way better then a bf109g. he is overblowing it so much.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Max_Damage

[Irgendjemand]

As demonstrated here. 109s Knights are an arrogant bunch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnZvMpdlY

the way you talk you should definately play allied all day thou.

Not just in this response.

No offense, just a thought. You come across like a real hater of germans and especially 109 virtupilots.

Just so you know what overall impression you leave.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[JtD]

Bf109 were obsolete compared to yak3, la5fn and la7 though.

I disagree. Not in terms of technology, not in terms of performance, not in terms of flying qualities, not in terms of mass produced weapons.

[Asgar]

the way you talk you should definately play allied all day thou.

Not just in this response.

No offense, just a thought. You come across like a real hater of germans and especially 109 virtupilots.

Just so you know what overall impression you leave.

hahaha Klaus IS German and i never saw any self-hatred in him 

[Max_Damage]

I disagree. Not in terms of technology, not in terms of performance, not in terms of flying qualities, not in terms of mass produced weapons.

There is lots of evidence proving otherwise from pilot reports to german orders forbidding to fight yak3s.

 

and spit 9 were imported. but never used in combat because the flight characteristics were inadequate. 100 kmh slower then la7.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Max_Damage

[JtD]

... to german orders forbidding to fight yak3s...

Please, show the order.

[MiloMorai]

There is lots of evidence proving otherwise from pilot reports to german orders forbidding to fight yak3s.

 

 

This has been discussed for years. What has come out is a memo/letter was sent from one German unit commander to another German unit commander that the Soviets have a new fighter that looks very similar to an existing Soviet fighter and is more maneuverable than the older fighter. In other words, a heads up.

[Wulf]

As demonstrated here. 109s Knights are an arrogant bunch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnZvMpdlY

 

 

Wow, I see what you mean.  The IL-2 sure is an impressive aircraft isn't it.  Built like a tank and yet strangely, very agile.  Anyone got a list of all the IL-2 pilots who shot down ten or more German fighters??  If the vid is any indication I'm guessing there must have been a fair few of them.  List anyone??

[Irgendjemand]

hahaha Klaus IS German and i never saw any self-hatred in him 

I know that. Thats what makes his comments so strange. 

 

Wow, I see what you mean.  The IL-2 sure is an impressive aircraft isn't it.  Built like a tank and yet strangely, very agile.  Anyone got a list of all the IL-2 pilots who shot down ten or more German fighters??  If the vid is any indication I'm guessing there must have been a fair few of them.  List anyone??

Just prophang all day and lasersnipe some germans right after you survived this 20mm pounding of his attack in 95% of all cases:P Flying snipertank:P

[LukeFF]

 

 

The IL-2 sure is an impressive aircraft isn't it.  Built like a tank and yet strangely, very agile.

 

The early-build Il-2s were known for their agility. It was only with the addition of a rear gun and gunner that the plane became very sluggish. 

 

 

 

Anyone got a list of all the IL-2 pilots who shot down ten or more German fighters??  If the vid is any indication I'm guessing there must have been a fair few of them.  List anyone??

 

 

No aces that I know of, but at the same time, plenty of German fighters were shot down by Il-2 pilots that knew what they were doing. 

[Asgar]

well, and they started building the tail from wood which increased the weight didn't they?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Must everyone behave like babies every time an attack aircraft shoots you down due to incompetent tactics?

 

 

The Il-2 had good armour, but it was not extremely heavy thanks to a lot of research put into creating a material which was resistant and lightweight. Add two fast-firing MGs and two high-velocity cannons and of course any dimwit who leaves on a vertical or horizontal straight line will be shot down. People get kills on the Bf-110 which is also comparatively junk against fighters but hey, it takes a good pilot to do it.

 

About Il-2 aces, a recommended read (use Google Translate as needed): http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/28_IL-2_ases/28_IL-2_ases.htm

 

Some had 7 kills, and most of the victims were Bf-109G-2s. Lololol bias?

[CUJO_1970]

There is no performance anomaly that red side won't try and justify, be it maneuverability, durability or weapon effectiveness.

 

Don't even comment on it or you are a "baby" and/or a "dimwit" as duly noted above.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

Must everyone behave like babies every time an attack aircraft shoots you down due to incompetent tactics?

I don't see anyone behaving like a baby. What i do see however is an WW2 aircraft with propeller, that behaves like a VTOL aircraft...there are some interesting videos out there helping are those "lift" flaps, that got fixed for the Yak a while ago, but clearly not for the IL2.

But i guess the IL2 is "right"..just like the Yak was, 3 nerf-patches ago 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

the way you talk you should definately play allied all day thou.

Not just in this response.

No offense, just a thought. You come across like a real hater of germans and especially 109 virtupilots.

Just so you know what overall impression you leave.

I distribute my hatred towards Spitfire Jocks, Pony Drivers, 190 Fanboys and Wannabe-Hartmanns equally. No preferences to either side. 

Just so you know, the 109 is my favourite fighter of WWII and I will go to lengths to defend it against UNJUST criticisms. 2nd rank is the Ki-43-II and after that Pretty much all others no matter the side. 

 

But in general you seem right. I hate the reluctance of the self appointed Sky Knights to play anything even close to a useful role in destroying the enemy, instead they seem like aimless Bumblebees. Any further comments on that topic would get me banned again, so I will hold back. 

I love the 109, I loathe and despise the people that fly it.

 

I seem to be really bad with the impressions I leave on people, in all walks of life. I am called a Nazi for defending the 109, and a VVS apologist for my hatred towards the german Teams. 

 

There is no performance anomaly that blue side won't try and justify, be it Speed, Climb or  Payload.

Don't even comment on it or you are a "baby" and/or a "dimwit" as duly noted above.

 

 

well, and they started building the tail from wood which increased the weight didn't they?

The Wings I would say. The 1941 Model has all metal wings, while the 1942 has all wood wings. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann