In game spinning trials

[JtD]

So I took the BoS fighters to the autumn map at 1000 meters in level flight to see what they'd do. I pulled fully back for 10s, no aileron, no rudder input. I then let go of the stick - no input. What did I get:

 

I-16T24 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, spinning, about 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral

I-16T24 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, spinning, about 3 seconds to recover with controls neutral

MiG-3 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, usually spinning, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, but erratic - spun into the ground once, out of spin/stall after 1s once

MiG-3 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, occasionally entering spinning, average 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral, but erratic

LaGG-3 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, but no spinning, about 3 seconds to recover with controls neutral

La-5 (100% throttle (no Forzash), 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, short spin, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral

Yak-1 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, no spin, about 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral

P-40E (80% throttle, 85% pitch, 100% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, spinning, about 4 seconds to recover with controls neutral

P-40E (80% throttle, 85% pitch, 10% fuel, trim only minor impact): stalling, spinning, about 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral

Bf109E-7 (80% throttle, 100% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, short spin, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, can vary a lot

Bf109E-7 (80% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, short spin, about 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral

Bf109F-2 (85% throttle, 100% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, no spin, about 4 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft

Bf109F-2 (85% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, no spin, about 3 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft

Bf109F-4 (80% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, no spin, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft

Bf109G-2 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, no spin, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft (very close to F-4)

Bf109G-2 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, 0% trim): stalling, short spin, about 6 seconds to recover with controls neutral, not nearly as wobbly as with extreme trim

Bf109G-2 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, short spin, about 6 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft

Bf109G-2 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, +100% trim): barely stalling, no spin, about 2 seconds to recover with controls neutral, noticeable wobbliness of aircraft

Bf109G-2 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, -100% trim): no stalling

Fw190A-3 (85% throttle, 100% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, spinning, crashed into the ground while still spinning (takes about 15s from 1000m starting altitude)

Fw190A-3 (85% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, spinning, 6 out of 10 crashed into the ground while still spinning, 4 out of 10 average recovery time 12s, wobbly

Fw190A-3 (85% throttle, 10% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, spinning, crashed into the ground while still spinning 3 out of 10, 7 out of 10 average recovery time 8s, wobbly

Fw190A-3 (85% throttle, 10% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, spinning, crashed into the ground while still spinning 4 out of 10, 6 out of 10 average recovery time 11s, wobbly

Mc202S8 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, spinning, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, results may vary

Mc202S8 (100% throttle, 100% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, spinning, about 5 seconds to recover with controls neutral, results may vary

Mc202S8 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, +100% trim): stalling, spinning, about 3 seconds to recover with controls neutral

Mc202S8 (100% throttle, 10% fuel, -100% trim): stalling, not really spinning, about 1 seconds to recover with controls neutral

 

So,

- changes in centre of gravity in accordance with fuel level and the resulting changes in the spinning tendencies are well modelled

- the notoriously difficult to fly LaGG refused to spin and is perfectly controllable about 3 seconds after putting the stick into neutral

 

I'm wondering if the developers put the CoG on the Fw190 into the right spot. Could it be that they've mistaken the positions given in the loading plans as position behind the leading edge of the mean aerodynamic chord, which would put CoG a bit to far rearwards?

Edited September 27, 2016 by JtD

[Holtzauge]

Thanks for taking the time to do this and sharing these interesting results JtD. Even though the different aircraft have the fuel tanks in different positions relative the AC and CG the trend is as one would expect: The more forward CG the more easy it is to recover.

 

About the Fw-190: I agree that the CG position could be part of the problem but in that case I would expect the Fw-190 to be more longitudinally unstable and be more prone to oscillations in pitch in ordinary flight? Right now it's very nice in pitch in the ordinary flight regime which is also what I would expect so there is probably more at play but it's difficult to understand what the problem is post stall since we don't have access to the FM.

 

The only one thing one can say with certainty IMHO is that the Fw-190 post stall behaviour is strange for this type of aircraft and that it is highly unlikely that an aircraft that exhibited this type of nasty post stall characteristics would have been accepted into service by any airforce......

[JtD]

I'd also expect the Fw190 to be more difficult to fly if the CoG was wrong. In a German test the aircraft showed instability from about a CoG position of 0.72m on rearward, the A-3 as a fighter should not exceed 0.71m with full rearward tank. Normal flight is what I would expect from that - near neutral, but stall isn't.

 

At any rate, I've bought BoM today, had a quick look at the other fighters. The only aircraft I could get into some decent stall and spin is the Mc.202. MiG-3, I-16 and P-40, much to my surprise, pretty much refused to spin without rudder input, the 109's were similar to the ones in BoS where it came to stall and spin. I'll probably take a more detailed look and update post #1 when I have the time.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I'd also expect the Fw190 to be more difficult to fly if the CoG was wrong. In a German test the aircraft showed instability from about a CoG position of 0.72m on rearward, the A-3 as a fighter should not exceed 0.71m with full rearward tank. Normal flight is what I would expect from that - near neutral, but stall isn't.

 

At any rate, I've bought BoM today, had a quick look at the other fighters. The only aircraft I could get into some decent stall and spin is the Mc.202. MiG-3, I-16 and P-40, much to my surprise, pretty much refused to spin without rudder input, the 109's were similar to the ones in BoS where it came to stall and spin. I'll probably take a more detailed look and update post #1 when I have the time.

 

Thx for your time.

[unreasonable]

I'd also expect the Fw190 to be more difficult to fly if the CoG was wrong. In a German test the aircraft showed instability from about a CoG position of 0.72m on rearward, the A-3 as a fighter should not exceed 0.71m with full rearward tank. Normal flight is what I would expect from that - near neutral, but stall isn't.

 

At any rate, I've bought BoM today, had a quick look at the other fighters. The only aircraft I could get into some decent stall and spin is the Mc.202. MiG-3, I-16 and P-40, much to my surprise, pretty much refused to spin without rudder input, the 109's were similar to the ones in BoS where it came to stall and spin. I'll probably take a more detailed look and update post #1 when I have the time.

 

It seems to be a general feature of RoF/BoS planes that they are hard to get into a spin, with a couple of exceptions. In RoF you can sometimes persuade the reluctant spinsters by entering a snap roll and then not recovering from the roll. I have not tried it in BoX, but it might work.

[JG13_opcode]

Thank you guys for spending your time doing testing. I keep telling myself I'll be a prolific tester but with the good times coming to an end via PTO I find myself with little motivation to play at all, let alone test.

[JtD]

I've conducted tests with the fighters from BoM. I've updated the first post with my additional figures. Couple of points:

 

The Fw190, in terms of spinning and spin recovery, remains a league on its own. No other plane is as poor as it is in game. Annoying, considering that the real thing was documented to quickly exit spins with controls put into neutral.

The BoM planes appear to have, as a trend, a more erratic behaviour to them. Or maybe my hand was more shaky this time. At any rate, the results for individual aircraft varied a lot more than with the BoS plane set. For instance, the MiG-3 generally started to stabilize as soon as I let go of the stick, but on one occasion, it did not show any signs of recovery until it crashed into the ground, one another, it was stable the moment I let go of the stick.

Aircraft with a poor spin "auto" recovery reputation, such as the P-40 or the LaGG, show no trouble in game. The P-40 spinning behaviour, which has been tested in trials and is documented in reports, is not represented in game.

Edited September 27, 2016 by JtD

[303_Kwiatek]

Lagg3 in early BOS days got different spin characteristic and wasnt easy to recover. It was changed in some time and now got much forgiving spin characteristic