Il 28 Battle of Korea (idea for a future game)

[BabaBert]

I had the idea, that one of the next games could be set in the Korea War cause Il 2 exist and plays now for like 15 years in the second world war as well as many other games and it is not this exciting and unique game like it once was. I would appreciate when one of next games take a step further and change the setting from WWII to like the Korea War with F-86 Sabre’s chasing Mig 15’s shooting down B 29’s. Jets would make the game to a faster, interesting and an especially more diverse game. It would give more variety to last titles, would attract more players as well as forcing old players to learn new tactics. With an area of 400km x 350km you can cover nearly the whole region of the conflict and the 20 years of war give a huge base for a sigleplayer campaign. It has this pacific typed theme and many possibilities for new features.

 

Edit:

I wrote Vietnam but I ment Korea, sorry for the confusion. Ofcourse not Vietnam cause Vietnam was way to modernised with guided missles and so.

Edited September 16, 2016 by BabaBert

[Gambit21]

Not going to happen

[Danziger]

I thought Vietnam was a whole war not just a battle? But yes it would be cool to get some F-4 versus MiG-21 action.

[Jason_Williams]

Would be cool, but way too much electronic warfare and guided missiles.

 

Jason

[kissklas]

I would buy a Korean war IL game. Imagine Mig Alley!

Would be cool, but way too much electronic warfare and guided missiles.

 

Jason

Yeah, I kinda think the same. Was there even any air battles during the Vietnam War?

[simplyjames]

Battle of Mig Alley would be sweet though

[kissklas]

Battle of Mig Alley would be sweet though

IL-10: Battle of Mig Alley! Hah, I think we might have something here!:-D

[Uufflakke]

Are we talking about Korea or Vietnam in this topic?

 

Edit:

Better stick to WWII with this game.

So much theaters/ planes etc. to create before it is necessary to switch to another era.

 

And last but not least: Sound of a radial engine is much more pleasant to the ears than the vacuum cleaner sound of jet turbines.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Uufflakke

[Gambit21]

He titled the post "Vietnam" gets answers related to Vietnam, then changed the thread title to Korea. Just to catch everyone up.

 

Korea would be epic, but not till after WW1 is updated

Edited September 16, 2016 by Gambit21

[Legioneod]

I'd prefer that they complete all the theaters of WW2 before moving to a different war. There is so much more that needs to be covered before they move on.

[Daff]

I would buy a Korean war IL game. Imagine Mig Alley!

 

Yeah, I kinda think the same. Was there even any air battles during the Vietnam War?

The Vietnam War "was the first 'modern' air war"^[37] in which air-to-air missiles were the primary weapons during aerial combat, and was the only confrontation between the latest aerial and ground defense technologies between the former Soviet Union and the United States.^[38] If U.S. air power could successfully conduct war against Soviet doctrine and equipment in the skies over North Vietnam, then it could expect to successfully operate against the Soviet Union during a massive war in Europe.^[38] Over the skies of North Vietnam, U.S. aircraft would be attacking the "most formidable and most heavily defended targets in the history of aerial warfare."^[39]

By this time, dogfighting techniques had fallen out of favor in U.S. training doctrines, as missiles were considered to be all that was necessary to shoot down the big bombers expected to be deployed by the Soviet Union. As a result, air combat methods known by fighter pilots since World War I became all but lost as veterans from WWII and Korea retired and didn't pass them on to succeeding generations. American fighter pilots would meet in the skies in secret to engage in mock combat^{[citation needed]} to try and maintain some level of proficiency. It wasn't until TOPGUN was established for the Navy in 1969 and Red Flag was started for the Air Force in 1975 that pilots were formally trained in dogfighting again.

Both U.S. and Soviet-built jet fighters were primarily designed for intercepting bombers, and then shooting them down with air-to-air missiles. With possibly a few exceptions, such as the U.S. Navy's F-8 Crusader and the U.S. Air Force's F-100 Super Sabre, which each mounted 4 20mm cannons, jets were not designed for dog fighting other jet aircraft.^[40] Soviet doctrine called for their interceptors to be strictly vectored towards their targets by Ground Control Intercept (GCI) operators. As a consequence, U.S. RF-101 Voodoo's conducting reconnaissance missions, or F-102 Delta Daggers, F-104 Starfighters performing MiGCAP duties, and the strike aircraft themselves, such as F-105 Thunderchiefs, A-4 Skyhawks, A-6 Intruders, F-4 Phantoms, and B-52's flying over North Vietnam were met by MiG-17s (or Chicom J-5s), MiG-19s (Chicom J-6s), and MiG-21s being vectored directly to them by GCI operators who worked in conjunction with surface-to-air missile (SAM) crews. U.S. aircraft which successfully made it through the NVAF MiGs were then confronted with the SAMs and AAA batteries.

This triad defense system of GCI-controlled MiGs, Missiles (SAMs), and AAA enabled the North Vietnamese MiGs to utilize their aircraft's design capabilities as their designers had intended,^[41] that of, in the vernacular of the time, making "one pass, and then hauling ass",^[42] which was, in practice, quickly firing at their targets and then speeding away. By 1967 the Soviets had supplied the NVAF with enough missile-firing MiG-21s to allow the North Vietnamese to routinely engage U.S. aircraft, and to rely less and less on their aged MiG-17s, although many North Vietnamese pilots still preferred the MiG-17s agility and easy maintenance. With the arrival of the additional MiG-21s, and by 1969 MiG-19s (J-6s) imported from Red China, engagements between U.S. and NVAF jets became generally divided into two arenas; MiG-21s engaged at higher altitudes, while MiG-17s and MiG-19s would try to give battle at lower altitudes where their cannons were more effective.^[43]

 

 

At the conclusion of the air war in 1973, U.S. airmen had downed 202 communist MiGs, including 2 downed by B-52 tailgunners from their quad .50 caliber machine guns; this at a cost of 90 U.S. aircraft to NVAF MiGs.^[44][45] The USAF claimed 137 MiGs while the USN/USMC brought down 65 in air-to-air combat. From these figures, the USAF had 40 gun kills, and the USN claimed 8 cannon victories. This number approached parity with the NVAF MiG's 37 gun kill figures.^[46][47]

 

Approximately 612 radar-guided AIM-7 Sparrow missiles were fired during the war, scoring 56 MiG kills, while 454 heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinders were launched achieving 81 aerial victories. During Operation Rolling Thunder 54 AIM-4 Falcon missiles were fired, obtaining 5 kills.^[48] By contrast, NVAF MiG-21s obtained 53 air-to-air kills with their AA-2 "Atoll" missiles, from an unknown number of launchings. At least 3 MiG-21s, and all of the MiG-17s and MiG-19s (J-6s) made the remaining 37 kills, from their 90 total, with their 23mm, 30mm and 37mm cannons.^[49][50]

As part of the North Vietnamese triad system of defense, surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) had become an ever-increasing threat. U.S Air Force Brigadier General Robin Olds describes a typical encounter with surface-to-air missiles, which during a period of time in Vietnam was referred to as either a "MiG day" or a "Sam day", this was a Sam day.^[51]

Here come the SAMs. The trick is seeing the launch. You can see the steam. It goes straight up, turns more level, then the booster drops off. If it maintains a relatively stable position, it's coming right for you and you're in trouble. You're eager to make a move but can't. If you dodge too fast it will turn and catch you; if you wait too late it will explode near enough to get you. What you do at the right moment is poke your nose down, go down as hard as you can, pull maybe three negative Gs at 550 knots and once it follows you down, you go up as hard as you can. It can't follow that and goes under.

[52]

This passage from a USAF booklet explained a MiG day:

"If you know a MiG-21 is in your area or you lose sight of one and want to find it again: Roll out wings level for 15 seconds, then look in your 6 o'clock about 1.5 miles. It will be there. Probably you'll see mach 2 Atoll (air-to-air missile) smoke trail first before you see the MiG. But remember that's where the MiG-21 is! Just ask one of the 20 aircrews shot down during

Linebacker

that never knew they were under attack."

[53]

 

From wikipedia                          

Edited September 16, 2016 by Foghorn

[Gambit21]

I'd prefer that they complete all the theaters of WW2 before moving to a different war. There is so much more that needs to be covered before they move on.

 

Yep, I meant back to WWI after that.

[Jokili68]

Here are the planes for a Korea-theater:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/de/shop/special_offers/mig15bis_and_f86f/

[kissklas]

 

The Vietnam War "was the first 'modern' air war...

 

Very nice! It seems this is something DCS should do, rather than the IL-2 team. But Korea sounds awesome!

[Danziger]

 

The Vietnam War "was the first 'modern' air war"^[37] in which air-to-air missiles were the primary weapons during aerial combat, and was the only confrontation between the latest aerial and ground defense technologies between the former Soviet Union and the United States.^[38] If U.S. air power could successfully conduct war against Soviet doctrine and equipment in the skies over North Vietnam, then it could expect to successfully operate against the Soviet Union during a massive war in Europe.^[38] Over the skies of North Vietnam, U.S. aircraft would be attacking the "most formidable and most heavily defended targets in the history of aerial warfare."^[39]

By this time, dogfighting techniques had fallen out of favor in U.S. training doctrines, as missiles were considered to be all that was necessary to shoot down the big bombers expected to be deployed by the Soviet Union. As a result, air combat methods known by fighter pilots since World War I became all but lost as veterans from WWII and Korea retired and didn't pass them on to succeeding generations. American fighter pilots would meet in the skies in secret to engage in mock combat^{[citation needed]} to try and maintain some level of proficiency. It wasn't until TOPGUN was established for the Navy in 1969 and Red Flag was started for the Air Force in 1975 that pilots were formally trained in dogfighting again.

Both U.S. and Soviet-built jet fighters were primarily designed for intercepting bombers, and then shooting them down with air-to-air missiles. With possibly a few exceptions, such as the U.S. Navy's F-8 Crusader and the U.S. Air Force's F-100 Super Sabre, which each mounted 4 20mm cannons, jets were not designed for dog fighting other jet aircraft.^[40] Soviet doctrine called for their interceptors to be strictly vectored towards their targets by Ground Control Intercept (GCI) operators. As a consequence, U.S. RF-101 Voodoo's conducting reconnaissance missions, or F-102 Delta Daggers, F-104 Starfighters performing MiGCAP duties, and the strike aircraft themselves, such as F-105 Thunderchiefs, A-4 Skyhawks, A-6 Intruders, F-4 Phantoms, and B-52's flying over North Vietnam were met by MiG-17s (or Chicom J-5s), MiG-19s (Chicom J-6s), and MiG-21s being vectored directly to them by GCI operators who worked in conjunction with surface-to-air missile (SAM) crews. U.S. aircraft which successfully made it through the NVAF MiGs were then confronted with the SAMs and AAA batteries.

This triad defense system of GCI-controlled MiGs, Missiles (SAMs), and AAA enabled the North Vietnamese MiGs to utilize their aircraft's design capabilities as their designers had intended,^[41] that of, in the vernacular of the time, making "one pass, and then hauling ass",^[42] which was, in practice, quickly firing at their targets and then speeding away. By 1967 the Soviets had supplied the NVAF with enough missile-firing MiG-21s to allow the North Vietnamese to routinely engage U.S. aircraft, and to rely less and less on their aged MiG-17s, although many North Vietnamese pilots still preferred the MiG-17s agility and easy maintenance. With the arrival of the additional MiG-21s, and by 1969 MiG-19s (J-6s) imported from Red China, engagements between U.S. and NVAF jets became generally divided into two arenas; MiG-21s engaged at higher altitudes, while MiG-17s and MiG-19s would try to give battle at lower altitudes where their cannons were more effective.^[43]

 

 

At the conclusion of the air war in 1973, U.S. airmen had downed 202 communist MiGs, including 2 downed by B-52 tailgunners from their quad .50 caliber machine guns; this at a cost of 90 U.S. aircraft to NVAF MiGs.^[44][45] The USAF claimed 137 MiGs while the USN/USMC brought down 65 in air-to-air combat. From these figures, the USAF had 40 gun kills, and the USN claimed 8 cannon victories. This number approached parity with the NVAF MiG's 37 gun kill figures.^[46][47]

 

Approximately 612 radar-guided AIM-7 Sparrow missiles were fired during the war, scoring 56 MiG kills, while 454 heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinders were launched achieving 81 aerial victories. During Operation Rolling Thunder 54 AIM-4 Falcon missiles were fired, obtaining 5 kills.^[48] By contrast, NVAF MiG-21s obtained 53 air-to-air kills with their AA-2 "Atoll" missiles, from an unknown number of launchings. At least 3 MiG-21s, and all of the MiG-17s and MiG-19s (J-6s) made the remaining 37 kills, from their 90 total, with their 23mm, 30mm and 37mm cannons.^[49][50]

As part of the North Vietnamese triad system of defense, surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) had become an ever-increasing threat. U.S Air Force Brigadier General Robin Olds describes a typical encounter with surface-to-air missiles, which during a period of time in Vietnam was referred to as either a "MiG day" or a "Sam day", this was a Sam day.^[51]

Here come the SAMs. The trick is seeing the launch. You can see the steam. It goes straight up, turns more level, then the booster drops off. If it maintains a relatively stable position, it's coming right for you and you're in trouble. You're eager to make a move but can't. If you dodge too fast it will turn and catch you; if you wait too late it will explode near enough to get you. What you do at the right moment is poke your nose down, go down as hard as you can, pull maybe three negative Gs at 550 knots and once it follows you down, you go up as hard as you can. It can't follow that and goes under.^[52]

This passage from a USAF booklet explained a MiG day:

"If you know a MiG-21 is in your area or you lose sight of one and want to find it again: Roll out wings level for 15 seconds, then look in your 6 o'clock about 1.5 miles. It will be there. Probably you'll see mach 2 Atoll (air-to-air missile) smoke trail first before you see the MiG. But remember that's where the MiG-21 is! Just ask one of the 20 aircrews shot down during Linebacker that never knew they were under attack."^[53]

 

^{From wikipedia}

Reading this makes me want to brush up on my MiG-21 procedures and shoot down some B-52s in DCS. Wish they would make more Cold War planes...

[Gambit21]

When they have a complete theater involving anything, that means map, plane set, ground vehicles and interface, let us know.

[Felix58]

Would love to see an il2 Korea.  Gets too whiz bangy after that.  There is another title on the market that is into that sort of thing and does it very well.

 

I'm more a WW2 tragic but one of the best military aviation books I have ever read is:  Robin Olds Fighter Pilot.  A large chunk of which is on his Vietnam War experience.

If you don't know much about the Vietnam Air War this will be an eye opener.  Highly recommended.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I agree that Vietnam is too much of a leap into all the modern/electronic gizmo scene.

 

But I'd love to see this team take on the Korean War as a logical extension/expansion of the PTO releases - think of all the carrier operations possibilities that could take advantage of all the work they're going to do for the PTO (Bridges at Toko-Ri, anyone?) - nothing I would like better than flying Corsairs, Skyraiders, Banshees and [OMG] Panthers off of the decks of the Essex-class carriers steaming off the coast.  Heck, I wouldn't even mind if they went there first, before going to the MTO (and that's hard for me to get my fingers to type, given how long I've been waiting for the MTO).

 

Would have to come up with a new acronym for that release, though, since they've already burned BOK on the Kuban  - maybe "IL-2 1950" (in the “Spirit of ‘46”, only more so )

[Cybermat47]

Would have to come up with a new acronym for that release, though, since they've already burned BOK on the Kuban  - maybe "IL-2 1950" (in the “Spirit of ‘46”, only more so )

BoKo? Or maybe the name could be 'The Korean War'.

[Jade_Monkey]

Awful. Next!

[Danziger]

Yes I think these guys should stick to <1946 and leave >1946 to DCS who do it well. DCS WW2 was a pretty bad decision I think. They bit off more than they can chew.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

Korea, well, at least for online play , too onesided IMHO

 

i would like to see a Six Day War flightsim

'balanced' planeset, still an airwar with canons and useless radarsystems

 

Mirage III

SMB2

Mystere IVA

Vatour

vs

MiG21F/PF

MiG19

MiG17

Hawker Hunter

Su7

 

and a lot of groundsupport flying!

Edited September 17, 2016 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[TG-55Panthercules]

Korea, well, at least for online play , too onesided IMHO

 

i would like to see a Six Day War flightsim

'balanced' planeset, still an airwar with canons and useless radarsystems

 

Mirage III

SMB2

Mystere IVA

Vatour

vs

MiG21F/PF

MiG19

MiG17

Hawker Hunter

Su7

 

and a lot of groundsupport flying!

 

Well, I'm not sure it's necessarily a safe assumption that MP would turn out to be as one-sided as it may have wound up being IRL, but I will say that the plane set for the North seems a little thin to me (based on what little I've read about the air war in Korea so far).

 

One intriguing thing about your suggestion for the Six Day War - besides the interesting plane set, it would be kinda cool to be able to keep a server up 24/7 for a week and fight the entire war in real time

 

Plus, they could re-use a lot of the terrain/map textures from the MTO release they surely would have done by then

[Tyberan]

Interested only if I can get an RAN seafury

[Neil]

I would hate a theater outside WW2 personally...

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'd love Korea but Vietnam would be better in a different engine tbh. I love the early EW and missiles.....was it Strike Fighters that did the last/only proper Vietnam sim?

[Gambit21]

It's pointless fantasy at this juncture anyway.

Too much WWII to cover and by the time they get close PC's will be gone and most of you will have digital brain implants.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

The Vietnam War "was the first 'modern' air war"^[37] in which air-to-air missiles were the primary weapons during aerial combat, and was the only confrontation between the latest aerial and ground defense technologies between the former Soviet Union and the United States.^[38] If U.S. air power could successfully conduct war against Soviet doctrine and equipment in the skies over North Vietnam, then it could expect to successfully operate against the Soviet Union during a massive war in Europe.^[38] Over the skies of North Vietnam, U.S. aircraft would be attacking the "most formidable and most heavily defended targets in the history of aerial warfare."^[39]

By this time, dogfighting techniques had fallen out of favor in U.S. training doctrines, as missiles were considered to be all that was necessary to shoot down the big bombers expected to be deployed by the Soviet Union. As a result, air combat methods known by fighter pilots since World War I became all but lost as veterans from WWII and Korea retired and didn't pass them on to succeeding generations. American fighter pilots would meet in the skies in secret to engage in mock combat^{[citation needed]} to try and maintain some level of proficiency. It wasn't until TOPGUN was established for the Navy in 1969 and Red Flag was started for the Air Force in 1975 that pilots were formally trained in dogfighting again.

Both U.S. and Soviet-built jet fighters were primarily designed for intercepting bombers, and then shooting them down with air-to-air missiles. With possibly a few exceptions, such as the U.S. Navy's F-8 Crusader and the U.S. Air Force's F-100 Super Sabre, which each mounted 4 20mm cannons, jets were not designed for dog fighting other jet aircraft.^[40] Soviet doctrine called for their interceptors to be strictly vectored towards their targets by Ground Control Intercept (GCI) operators. As a consequence, U.S. RF-101 Voodoo's conducting reconnaissance missions, or F-102 Delta Daggers, F-104 Starfighters performing MiGCAP duties, and the strike aircraft themselves, such as F-105 Thunderchiefs, A-4 Skyhawks, A-6 Intruders, F-4 Phantoms, and B-52's flying over North Vietnam were met by MiG-17s (or Chicom J-5s), MiG-19s (Chicom J-6s), and MiG-21s being vectored directly to them by GCI operators who worked in conjunction with surface-to-air missile (SAM) crews. U.S. aircraft which successfully made it through the NVAF MiGs were then confronted with the SAMs and AAA batteries.

This triad defense system of GCI-controlled MiGs, Missiles (SAMs), and AAA enabled the North Vietnamese MiGs to utilize their aircraft's design capabilities as their designers had intended,^[41] that of, in the vernacular of the time, making "one pass, and then hauling ass",^[42] which was, in practice, quickly firing at their targets and then speeding away. By 1967 the Soviets had supplied the NVAF with enough missile-firing MiG-21s to allow the North Vietnamese to routinely engage U.S. aircraft, and to rely less and less on their aged MiG-17s, although many North Vietnamese pilots still preferred the MiG-17s agility and easy maintenance. With the arrival of the additional MiG-21s, and by 1969 MiG-19s (J-6s) imported from Red China, engagements between U.S. and NVAF jets became generally divided into two arenas; MiG-21s engaged at higher altitudes, while MiG-17s and MiG-19s would try to give battle at lower altitudes where their cannons were more effective.^[43]

 

 

At the conclusion of the air war in 1973, U.S. airmen had downed 202 communist MiGs, including 2 downed by B-52 tailgunners from their quad .50 caliber machine guns; this at a cost of 90 U.S. aircraft to NVAF MiGs.^[44][45] The USAF claimed 137 MiGs while the USN/USMC brought down 65 in air-to-air combat. From these figures, the USAF had 40 gun kills, and the USN claimed 8 cannon victories. This number approached parity with the NVAF MiG's 37 gun kill figures.^[46][47]

 

Approximately 612 radar-guided AIM-7 Sparrow missiles were fired during the war, scoring 56 MiG kills, while 454 heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinders were launched achieving 81 aerial victories. During Operation Rolling Thunder 54 AIM-4 Falcon missiles were fired, obtaining 5 kills.^[48] By contrast, NVAF MiG-21s obtained 53 air-to-air kills with their AA-2 "Atoll" missiles, from an unknown number of launchings. At least 3 MiG-21s, and all of the MiG-17s and MiG-19s (J-6s) made the remaining 37 kills, from their 90 total, with their 23mm, 30mm and 37mm cannons.^[49][50]

As part of the North Vietnamese triad system of defense, surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) had become an ever-increasing threat. U.S Air Force Brigadier General Robin Olds describes a typical encounter with surface-to-air missiles, which during a period of time in Vietnam was referred to as either a "MiG day" or a "Sam day", this was a Sam day.^[51]

Here come the SAMs. The trick is seeing the launch. You can see the steam. It goes straight up, turns more level, then the booster drops off. If it maintains a relatively stable position, it's coming right for you and you're in trouble. You're eager to make a move but can't. If you dodge too fast it will turn and catch you; if you wait too late it will explode near enough to get you. What you do at the right moment is poke your nose down, go down as hard as you can, pull maybe three negative Gs at 550 knots and once it follows you down, you go up as hard as you can. It can't follow that and goes under.

[52]

This passage from a USAF booklet explained a MiG day:

"If you know a MiG-21 is in your area or you lose sight of one and want to find it again: Roll out wings level for 15 seconds, then look in your 6 o'clock about 1.5 miles. It will be there. Probably you'll see mach 2 Atoll (air-to-air missile) smoke trail first before you see the MiG. But remember that's where the MiG-21 is! Just ask one of the 20 aircrews shot down during

Linebacker

that never knew they were under attack."

[53]

 

From wikipedia                          

 

 

the Sparrow was no where as effective as you said...it shot down a small handful of aircraft. Even during Iraq 1 it performed badly.

 

Check your sources!

[Daff]

the Sparrow was no where as effective as you said...it shot down a small handful of aircraft. Even during Iraq 1 it performed badly.

 

Check your sources!

Care to elborate alittle more?

 

Also, try to relax.