Wondering which 190-A5 we will get

[II./JG77_Manu*]

It's not that easy with the 190-A5s. Pretty comparable to the Yak1s or Mig3s, there were several versions out there.

Not even talking about all the Rüstkits, which made several modifications possible (different bombs, torpedos, camera, etc ), but about the engine.

 

January 1943 at the same time like the first La-5s, the "original" 190-A5 came out, with ground speed of 567kph and 656kph at 6,3km/full throttle alt. It had a climb rate of around 18.7-19.2 m/s with 1.42ata. 

 

In addition we have A5s with 1.65ata clearance and C3 injection. Here is a test report from 2.3.1943, so pretty much the timeframe the Kuban campaign is in. For everybody who doesn't understand German, the essential points are:

- topspeed additional 36kph at 3km alt (628kph)

- topspeed additional 42kph at 5km alt (667kph)

- climb to 8000m in 8:38min - with 1.32ata it was 12:17min (30% better)

- usage of 1.65ata+C3 injection 10-15min.

 

according to my book and some other sources (you'll find some in wwiiarcraftperformance), only the low blower got cleared for injection + overboost in operational use at first. High blower got cleared for operational use only in 1944, so we can forget about this. Low blower boosted A5s however were pretty common in the eastern front in mid 1943 (however there are no absolute numbers, since it was a pretty easy upgrade, done by the mechanics "in the field"). It could be used up to 1km, and it brought an additional 30-45kph in speed over the normal (1.42) one, and the additional 30% of climbing power i was talking about before.

 

 

Another way of upgrading the engine have been external air intakes, i'll just make it easy, and copy the text about it over here:

Another procedure to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.

 

What i read about it in my book this last upgrade was used in the western front, since it was solely about upgrading power at altitude, which wasn't important in the east. So probably not relevant for the game either.

 

In my opinion, the only upgrade to make historical sense is

 

- the C3 injection with 1.65 ata boost for low blower

 

It has been used in the eastern front at about the timeframe the Kuban campaign took place.

Gonna be interesting what we get.

Edited September 17, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Finkeren]

Damn. If those numbers hold up, the A5 could be a beast!!!

[303_Kwiatek]

Yea like A3 in BOS

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Damn. If those numbers hold up, the A5 could be a beast!!!

 

You can check most of what i sad here (might take you some time though, a lot of documents).

 I can upload the rest from my books as soon as i am home, traveling currently.

[Willy__]

 

 

Yea like A3 in BOS

 

   

 

 

 

@topic:

If anything that our current A3 says... I wouldnt expect much from the A5   (be prepared to fight stalls, and being caught in dives by the ruskies)

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

Yea like A3 in BOS

A3 is a Diva

[Livai]

There is no worry about the A-5 Performance. We will maybe see very soon some epic footage how Han or Jason flying the last original in the world!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PviNlOwihIw

[Willy__]

flying the last original in the world!

 

I seriously doubt they would push the last remaining flying 'original' 190 to its limits

Edited September 16, 2016 by JAGER_Staiger

[Gambit21]

I seriously doubt they would push the last remaining flying 'original' 190 to its limits

 

Indeed, they probably shouldn't even be flying it.

There are several "last one left on earth" examples at the Paul Allen collection near me, including an Oscar variant and a 190D variant, both flyable, but they won't risk them.

[ZachariasX]

Indeed, they probably shouldn't even be flying it.

There are several "last one left on earth" examples at the Paul Allen collection near me, including an Oscar variant and a 190D variant, both flyable, but they won't risk them.

They should be great templates (along with existing blueprints) to produce exact copies. It is amazing what you can make these days if it is just for small production numbers. Same as with vintage cars, parts produced today as replica often enough (my expreience) far exceed the original quality.

 

I've seen this Spitfire:

http://www.christies.com/spitfire/interactive/index.html

 

and compared to the unrestored original at the Imperial War Museum the difference in production quality is tremenous. The wreck from the beach is now a shiny and perfect piece of art, the original is (in comparison) a sad wrinkly bird with a semi-transparent hood (talking of the optical distortions, not the dust).

 

It is maybe not unreasonable to eventionally keep only copies as flyables, the originals on the other hand kept safe. They are a piece of history after all...

[JtD]

Then we have A5s with C3 injection, widely used for Jabo's in the eastern front. They upped the 1.42ata Notleistung to 15 minutes, and brought a small performance increase (5-10 kph)

This is new to me, and technically, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Injecting C3 to simply extend 1.42ata time seems like overkill. I'd appreciate a source. If you're just going by ww2aircraftperformance, the text is unclear at that point and might have to be interpreted differently.

 

You'd use C3 injection with higher boost so that you could keep the mixture rich enough to keep combustion temperatures low enough. BMW/Fw expected a severe increase of cylinder temperature, if they upped the boost to 1.65 while injecting the same amount of fuel they used for 1.42ata (fuel pump limit). The result would be a leaner mixture, higher combustion temperatures and higher cylinder temperatures, on top of what you'd get from going 1.42->1.65 with the same mixture.

 

They later found the effects weren't as severe as they feared, when the C3 injection failed on testing machines with no ill effect on the engine.

Edited September 16, 2016 by JtD

[ZachariasX]

This is new to me, and technically, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Injecting C3 to simply extend 1.42ata time seems like overkill. I'd appreciate a source. If you're just going by ww2aircraftperformance, the text is unclear at that point and might have to be interpreted differently.You'd use C3 injection with higher boost so that you could keep the mixture rich enough to keep combustion temperatures low enough. BMW/Fw expected a severe increase of cylinder temperature, if they upped the boost to 1.65 while injecting the same amount of fuel they used for 1.42ata (fuel pump limit). The result would be a leaner mixture, higher combustion temperatures and higher cylinder temperatures, on top of what you'd get from going 1.42->1.65 with the same mixture.They later found the effects weren't as severe as they feared, when the C3 injection failed on testing machines with no ill effect on the engine.

It is probably a translation error. Even Wikipedia writes about "C3 injection", but no AFAIK no engine ever injected a different AVGAS quality for specific flight regimes (like here, supposedly injecting 100 octane on 87 octane). You only inject additives tha the engine can't run on exclusively, such as water, methanol, NOx as examples. Adding the weight for this injection when you just could fill the tank with "the right stuff", it would be an epic design blunder.

 

Enriching the mixture with 100octane on top of 87 will also not remove pre detonation caused by the fast burning cheap [Edited]. Water would help much more, as you could run on the same pre-detonation limited ata rating with a leaner mixture. Adding fuel instead of water removes this effect of more efficient combustion with 0 benefit. You just waste some 100 octane fuel.

 

C3 injection has no other meaning than 100 octane in the fuel tank. It will be injected, as it is an injection engine, not carburated, hence probably the misconception.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Bearcat
Profanity

[Haza]

Yea like A3 in BOS

 

Yea, like here he goes again.

Mate, let's just stick with the topic at hand, the A-5.

[JtD]

It is probably a translation error. Even Wikipedia writes about "C3 injection", but no AFAIK no engine ever injected a different AVGAS quality for specific flight regimes (like here, supposedly injecting 100 octane on 87 octane). You only inject additives tha the engine can't run on exclusively, such as water, methanol, NOx as examples. Adding the weight for this injection when you just could fill the tank with "the right stuff", it would be an epic design blunder.

 

Enriching the mixture with 100octane on top of 87 will also not remove pre detonation caused by the fast burning cheap shit. Water would help much more, as you could run on the same pre-detonation limited ata rating with a leaner mixture. Adding fuel instead of water removes this effect of more efficient combustion with 0 benefit. You just waste some 100 octane fuel.

 

C3 injection has no other meaning than 100 octane in the fuel tank. It will be injected, as it is an injection engine, not carburated, hence probably the misconception.

The Fw190 with the D series BMW801 always used 100 octane C3 fuel, only the first few using the BMW801C came with 87 octane B4 fuel. The extra C3 injection was used because the fuel supply to the engine was limited (Einspritzpumpe, injection pump was insufficient), so some extra fuel was to be injected into the induction system (left intake) when the boost exceeded 1.42ata. All this was done to allow 10-15 minutes of 1.65ata with fighter bombers. System, background, purpose and so on all very clearly described in the manual.

 

I've just never heared this to be used with 1.42ata. If Manu goes only by ww2aircraftperformance, I'm sure it is a misunderstanding just down to odd wording, if however, he's got a clear statement in another source, I'll have learned something new.

Edited September 17, 2016 by JtD

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I've just never heared this to be used with 1.42ata. If Manu goes only by ww2aircraftperformance, I'm sure it is a misunderstanding just down to odd wording, if however, he's got a clear statement in another source, I'll have learned something new.

 

No, no clear statement, guess it was really a misunderstanding.

I just read that C3 injection was used from early spring 1943 in one source, and C3 injection and 1.65ata (both specifically mentioned) from mid 1943.

In addition i got sources who tell about different performance gains (5-10kph + in first one, 30-45 + in another one). 

Nowhere was mentioned word for word, that they used 1.42 with C3 injection. Wrong assumption by available sources i guess

 

Fixed in OP

Edited September 17, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[JtD]

OK, thanks for the clarification!

[Holtzauge]

It's not that easy with the 190-A5s. Pretty comparable to the Yak1s or Mig3s, there were several versions out there.

Not even talking about all the Rüstkits, which made several modifications possible (different bombs, torpedos, camera, etc ), but about the engine.

 

January 1943 at the same time like the first La-5s, the "original" 190-A5 came out, with ground speed of 567kph and 656kph at 6,3km/full throttle alt. It had a climb rate of around 18.7-19.2 m/s with 1.42ata. 

 

In addition we have A5s with 1.65ata clearance and C3 injection. Here is a test report from 2.3.1943, so pretty much the timeframe the Kuban campaign is in. For everybody who doesn't understand German, the essential points are:

- topspeed additional 36kph at 3km alt (628kph)

- topspeed additional 42kph at 5km alt (667kph)

- climb to 8000m in 8:38min - with 1.32ata it was 12:17min (30% better)

- usage of 1.65ata+C3 injection 10-15min.

 

according to my book and some other sources (you'll find some in wwiiarcraftperformance), only the low blower got cleared for injection + overboost in operational use at first. High blower got cleared for operational use only in 1944, so we can forget about this. Low blower boosted A5s however were pretty common in the eastern front in mid 1943 (however there are no absolute numbers, since it was a pretty easy upgrade, done by the mechanics "in the field"). It could be used up to 1km, and it brought an additional 30-45kph in speed over the normal (1.42) one, and the additional 30% of climbing power i was talking about before.

 

 

Another way of upgrading the engine have been external air intakes, i'll just make it easy, and copy the text about it over here:

Another procedure to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.

 

What i read about it in my book this last upgrade was used in the western front, since it was solely about upgrading power at altitude, which wasn't important in the east. So probably not relevant for the game either.

 

In my opinion, the only upgrade to make historical sense is

 

- the C3 injection with 1.65 ata boost for low blower

 

It has been used in the eastern front at about the timeframe the Kuban campaign took place.

Gonna be interesting what we get.

 

Some info on C3 and Methanol usage from Flugzeug Classic attached.

[Lusekofte]

Yeah , looking forward to multiple topics about this plane not being what expected of it....

[ZachariasX]

Some info on C3 and Methanol usage from Flugzeug Classic attached.

 

Thnx!

 

Ah, it just sucks if you up your compressor gearing just for the fuel flow not keeping up...

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Yea like A3 in BOS

*grabs popcorn*

 

 

no seriously pls dont provoke a hate war 

[MadisonV44]

At the light of several improvements (including the 64 bits) I've done my best to support the team and this great sim by purchasing BOM even if I don't fly its planeset. 

 

I will buy the second version of FW at the very moment the post-patch version of the A3 will be reversed to previous. Not before. Promisses for a future A5 in months and months won't make me forget that me and my fly-mates completely loose the pleasure to fly this great bird in the pre-patch version.