Battle of New Guinea - BONG!

[BlitzPig_EL]

Only if you don't understand it.

[DD_Arthur]

Only if you don't understand it.

 

Then you're gonna have to educate me _EL.  Seriously, why is NG the key to the pacific war?  All the guys who had to put their hands up were in Tokyo.

 

Securing NG for the allies meant they were now only 3000 miles from Tokyo.  At the end of the day, no matter what happened, Nimitz was always going to be first to Tokyo and he'd go by ship and.....he wouldn't be leaving from NG....

 

Once again; serious strategic question   

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It is similar to bombing ball bearings and oil in the ETO. You are denying the lines of supply and war material to facilitate your march into the enemy's heartland. NG secured a flank and the lines of supply.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Indeed.

 

And as I said, New Guinea gutted the experienced combat pilots from the Japanese Army Air Corps, who also had main responsibility for the air defense of the Home Islands.

 

I forget the exact quote, but the head of USN aviation told General Kenny, the USAAF commander in the SW Pacific, that because of what they did in New Guinea, when they got to the home islands, there was no one left to flight...

 

Arthur, if they went to Tokyo right away it would have been a blood bath.

 

And thanks for not taking my comment wrong, I did worry it was a bit terse after posting it.

 

Cheers.

[DD_Arthur]

Japan got oil from Sumatra and rubber from Malaya didn't they?  They're also around 3000 miles from Tokyo and NG.   The "flanks" were secure by the autumn of '43 and yet still the war in the pacific went on for nearly two years.

 

From NG the allies - or rather MacArthur - marched on to the Philippines.  Thats about a thousand miles closer to Tokyo but hardly the enemies heartland?

 

I still don't get it

 

Edit; cross posted with EL.  Thinking....

Edited September 18, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[BlitzPig_EL]

Australia was our biggest staging area in the SW Pacific, and it held our largest, and for a while, only, major naval base in the area, and where much of our submarine force was launched against those Japanese trade routes from Malaya and Sumatra.  Having a major Japanese presence located so close to Australia was not an option. If the Japanese had succeeded in controlling NG, then Australia would have been in land based bomber range of the Japanese, and the Japanese would have been in a location to interdict supply lines to the SW Pacific from the US.

 

May I suggest reading Fire in the Sky by Eric M. Bergerud.  It is a massive work on the air war in the SW Pacific.  Anyone with even a remote interest in the Pacific Theater should read this book.

 

 

It covers everything from the strategic reasons for the New Guinea campaign, right down to the day to day conditions faced by the airmen of all the nations that fought this battle.

Edited September 18, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[BlitzPig_EL]

In the end weather we think that New Guinea is important, or not, does not matter.   The military leaders of the time, on both sides, thought that it mattered, and spent vast amounts of blood and treasure to try to win there.

 

And that's why it is a theater deserving of being covered by our sim.

Edited September 18, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[Nic727]

What about Guadalcanal?

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm all for it!

[DD_Arthur]

In the end weather we think that New Guinea is important, or not, does not matter.   The military leaders of the time, on both sides, thought that it mattered, and spent vast amounts of blood and treasure to try to win there.

 

 

Certainly.  I'll put my hands up here and admit that while I'm familiar with the timelines and lots of the later stages of the pacific war, I'm pretty light on the detail and pretty fuzzy about aspects of the 41 - 43 period of the land campaigns.

 

Just had a large scale atlas out on the kitchen table to have a good look at this vast area.  It raises big questions about the decisions made in Washington during these years.  They had choices.......

 

Australia was our biggest staging area in the SW Pacific, and it held our largest, and for a while, only, major naval base in the area, and where much of our submarine force was launched against those Japanese trade routes from Malaya and Sumatra.  Having a major Japanese presence located so close to Australia was not an option. If the Japanese had succeeded in controlling NG, then Australia would have been in land based bomber range of the Japanese, and the Japanese would have been in a location to interdict supply lines to the SW Pacific from the US.

 

May I suggest reading Fire in the Sky by Eric M. Bergerud.  It is a massive work on the air war in the SW Pacific.  Anyone with even a remote interest in the Pacific Theater should read this book.

 

 

At the time this was going on Australian troops were playing a vital role out in the western desert.  Australia coming within range of land based bombers, let alone the real prospect of an invasion would have had a huge effect on political relations with the British at this time.

 

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll see if I can order it.   

[Cybermat47]

At the time this was going on Australian troops were playing a vital role out in the western desert.  Australia coming within range of land based bombers, let alone the real prospect of an invasion would have had a huge effect on political relations with the British at this time.

In fact, Australia did come under attack from land-based bombers until November 1943 resulting in two RAAF squadrons of Spitfires being based near Darwin.

 

G4Ms over Darwin.

 

The fact that Churchill kept our soldiers in Africa hasn't exactly endeared him to the Australian people. Let's just say that he was a brilliant leader for Britain to have, but not the best ally for Australia to have.

 

As it happened, Australia wasn't invaded, and the war in Africa led to the invasion of Sicily, which later led to Italy leaving the Axis and Germany being stretched to breaking point, so in the end I would say that Churchill made the right call... though I am still annoyed

[DD_Arthur]

Did you know Cybermat, that if you fly north out of Singapore in the morning you can see the End of the British Empire?

 

It's about forty minutes after take off in a Hercules and at around two thousand feet - you look down to your left and if you're lucky and the weather, the sun, the sea and the pilot can all get it together you can see a distinct black line in the sea.

 

It's the shadow cast on the sea bed by the upturned wreck of HMS Prince of Wales.

[Bearfoot]

Did you know Cybermat, that if you fly north out of Singapore in the morning you can see the End of the British Empire?

 

It's about forty minutes after take off in a Hercules and at around two thousand feet - you look down to your left and if you're lucky and the weather, the sun, the sea and the pilot can all get it together you can see a distinct black line in the sea.

 

It's the shadow cast on the sea bed by the upturned wreck of HMS Prince of Wales.

 

Poignant. Pictures?

[Gambit21]

Australia was our biggest staging area in the SW Pacific, and it held our largest, and for a while, only, major naval base in the area, and where much of our submarine force was launched against those Japanese trade routes from Malaya and Sumatra.  Having a major Japanese presence located so close to Australia was not an option. If the Japanese had succeeded in controlling NG, then Australia would have been in land based bomber range of the Japanese, and the Japanese would have been in a location to interdict supply lines to the SW Pacific from the US.

 

May I suggest reading Fire in the Sky by Eric M. Bergerud.  It is a massive work on the air war in the SW Pacific.  Anyone with even a remote interest in the Pacific Theater should read this book.

 

 

It covers everything from the strategic reasons for the New Guinea campaign, right down to the day to day conditions faced by the airmen of all the nations that fought this battle.

 

Agreed!

I've read it through 3 times - no better book on the subject exists.

[Feathered_IV]

New Guinea would be a good alternative to Okinawa as an expansion.  I'm not sure how well Guadalcanal would work as a flight sim though.  The mission profiles would be limited to some exceptionally long escort and bombing flights for the Japanese players, and not too much more than intercepts and a bit of strafing for the US side.

 

The battle for Rabaul would offer a lot more gameplay options than Guadalcanal.  The allied bases at Green island, Bougainville and maybe even Kiriwina were a shorter haul.  As well as the usual fighter action, there was also carrier strikes against the bastion, high level bombing, very low level strikes and shipping attacks.  The nocturnal Black Cats were out in force, along with a very active contingent of Japanese night fighters. 

 

 

Edit:  And I'd also like a Battle of North Korea, just for the abbreviation...

Edited September 19, 2016 by Feathered_IV

[Legioneod]

New Guinea would be a good alternative to Okinawa as an expansion.  

I disagree, New Guinea is mid war while Okinawa is late war. I think Okinawa should remain and New Guinea be added later on. That way we get a fuller picture of the war in the Pacific with early, mid, and late war settings.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

I disagree, New Guinea is mid war while Okinawa is late war. I think Okinawa should remain and New Guinea be added later on.

There is no connection nor relation between Midway and Okinawa, one basically introduces two theaters almost impossible to combine in any reasonable way. If something, there should be Midway -> New Guinea -> Okinawa. Otherwise you have to operations and two sets of aircraft that dont work together at all and you split population even in the same theater of operations.

On the other hand if you set in-between New Guinea you can pretty much use Midway aircraft there as well (and some New Guinea aircraft fit into early war operations either) and you can use New Guinea aircraft in Okinawa (Japanese Army still used Ki-61-I up to 1945 and they saw combat over Okinawa as well, there were Ki-43s, A6M5s, ...)

[Gambit21]

New Guinea would be a good alternative to Okinawa as an expansion.  I'm not sure how well Guadalcanal would work as a flight sim though.  The mission profiles would be limited to some exceptionally long escort and bombing flights for the Japanese players, and not too much more than intercepts and a bit of strafing for the US side.

 

The battle for Rabaul would offer a lot more gameplay options than Guadalcanal.  The allied bases at Green island, Bougainville and maybe even Kiriwina were a shorter haul.  As well as the usual fighter action, there was also carrier strikes against the bastion, high level bombing, very low level strikes and shipping attacks.  The nocturnal Black Cats were out in force, along with a very active contingent of Japanese night fighters. 

 

 

Edit:  And I'd also like a Battle of North Korea, just for the abbreviation...

 

Regarding comments on Gaudalcanal...that's a bit tantamount to saying the mission profiles are limited in a Western Front/tactical scenario to intercepts by

the Germans, and long bombing raids for the Allies with some strafing on the way home. Not really a fair analysis if the situation as it's far more EPIC than that.

Same thing applies with the Betty/Zero raids on Henderson and the intercepts by Cactus - epic stuff.

 

Not to mention float plane ops by the Japanese (R Area Air Force). Aside from patrols, attacks on shipping, you'd have historical or 'semi' historical. resupply missions to the north end of Guadalcanal via float plane from various bases on different islands as well as Rabual. Also air cover by float planes for shipping to Gaudalcanal or other islands, patrols and intercepts of those missions.

There's more to it than what you describe, not to mention some carrier ops/patrols of the Solomons that could be made more dramatic, and more common for game play purposes.

 

 Plus then with this map you have the greater in scope actions up the slot that you describe withe addition of just a few planes (Corsair for one)

So "Guadalcanal" need not be a limited map, but a complete Slot map allowing all of these scenarios. It could/should be scaled down since players are not going to sit there and fly for 6 hours anyway. 

 

Because of the hugely overlapping plane set to Midway, it makes sense...no brainier really IMHO all things considered.

New Guinea deserves to be represented as well, but it's a huge undertaking comparatively when map and plane set are considered. 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Yeah, problem with the Solomons is the long distance, a map covering from Guadalcanal to Bougainville would need to be around 600 x 900 km. I would really like to see it as an IL-2 title though

Edited September 19, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[Gambit21]

Yep - scale down.

[Legioneod]

There is no connection nor relation between Midway and Okinawa, one basically introduces two theaters almost impossible to combine in any reasonable way. If something, there should be Midway -> New Guinea -> Okinawa. Otherwise you have to operations and two sets of aircraft that dont work together at all and you split population even in the same theater of operations.

On the other hand if you set in-between New Guinea you can pretty much use Midway aircraft there as well (and some New Guinea aircraft fit into early war operations either) and you can use New Guinea aircraft in Okinawa (Japanese Army still used Ki-61-I up to 1945 and they saw combat over Okinawa as well, there were Ki-43s, A6M5s, ...)

That's pretty much what I meant. New Guinea shouldn't replace Okinawa. New Guinea should be in-between the other two but it shouldn't replace either one.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

To be fair I'm not a fan of Okinawa anyway, I'd prefer Philippines 1944. Leyte is just amazing opportunity to combine land and naval units, its also the last move of Japanese Carrier force and those carriers in 1944 had radars as well. Both Japanese and Americans went through series of changes in their ships, operations and tactics since encounters in 1942. And those Japanese carriers look so great with late war camouflages :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Technically one can even use aircraft from Midway since A6M2s were used in bomber configuration (stuck with 250 kg bomb) called "Senbaku" or "Bakusen", B5N2s were present on smaller carriers which could not launch B6N. And you get whole new set of carrier borne aircraft as F6F, SB2C, B6N, C6N ... along with most of land based aircraft that you would see on Okinawa anyway such as Ki-84, N1K, Ki-44, P1Y, Ki-67... 

 

In this case I feel like Okinawa is not a good choice if you want to give the best of the ships, or well, you have only one side with Americans having everything from picket ships up to battleships. And Japanese got kamikaze ... 

While Philippines give you about the same set of aircraft, but give a lot more possibilities to use them. Carrier clashes from 1942 with Midway and from 1944 with battle of Leyte Gulf would feel so different ! 

[TheElf]

A third pacific theatre in a row?  Can't see it myself.......

 

 

who said anything about 3 in a row?

[DD_Arthur]

who said anything about 3 in a row?

 

Isn't this what this thread is about?

 

Edit;  Ah...I see what you mean.  In that case I'll have NG,  the Phillipines and Okinawa.  I'll also have Italy,  a mid-war channel map,

 Murmansk, etc.

 

I'm all in favour!

Edited September 19, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[TheElf]

Isn't this what this thread is about?

 

Not that I am aware of.  All I have said is that the Pacific Pivot by the developers should, in my opinion, concentrate on campaigns that offer the best crossover for future or past releases, and that a chronological progression of releases that are at least related by time period would be the best thing for the title and the community rather than completely separate, unrelated, releases that have no positive effects on previous or future releases.

 

To that end, I think I said I would like to see Battle of the Solomons and Battle of New Guinea '42 before any Okinawa release.  But that doesn't mean they would all have to come in a row.  In fact, I would like to see other theaters ( Not the East, and not Pacific) BEFORE Okinawa. Med, Finland, Spain, BoFrance, China/Burma.

 

I am in it for the holistic approach, and while I have my preferences, I want to see more new theaters.

[hames123]

If BONG happens, will we see our first British pilots and squadrons? Or will there only be Australian and Americans on the Allied side.

[Goanna1]

Beer, Bogans and BONG. I'm with ya!   Teehee!

He he  Glad someone got the Joke

[TheElf]

Then you're gonna have to educate me _EL.  Seriously, why is NG the key to the pacific war?  All the guys who had to put their hands up were in Tokyo.

 

Securing NG for the allies meant they were now only 3000 miles from Tokyo.  At the end of the day, no matter what happened, Nimitz was always going to be first to Tokyo and he'd go by ship and.....he wouldn't be leaving from NG....

 

Once again; serious strategic question   

 

 

It looks I'm a little late to this one, but I'll chime in.

 

New Guinea and the Solomons were parallel efforts.  Both benefited early by being saved from the Japanese in the very early months of 1942 after the fall of Singapore, the Phillipines, and the Dutch East Indies.  Another important fact that made the South Pacific relevant when by all rights it shouldn't have been was that MacAurthur retreated from the Philippines to Australia.  From there he was appointed Supreme Commander of Allied Forces South West Pacific.  Depsite his faults Mac was intensely loyal to the Phillipines, believing he had failed there.  His primary goal was to "Return" to the Phillipines and liberate the country and any of his imprisoned forces.

 

Being an Army man, and following the successful Defense of Port Moresby by the beleaguered Aussie RAAF and USAAC units, and the Battle of the Coral Sea, Mac decided on a strategy of neutralizing the growing cancer of Imperial Japanese Navy presence at Rabaul.  A campaign through New Guinea was his answer. His first obstacle to working back to the Philippines was Rabaul.  Geographically it is out of the way, but you have to consider the mindset at the time.  Rabaul was viewed as a FORTRESS that could not be ignored and could support IJ Naval and Naval Air Forces operating throughout the South Pacific, thus threatening the supply lines of Communication that Australia depended on from the US.  THIS is how Operation Watchtower came to be.  First Guadalcanal had to be taken to prevent further spread of the Japanese south toward the vital sea lanes between US and Oz.  In the meantime the USAAC and RAAF held the line at Port Moresby and built up for an Army Air Corps campaign that would ultimately be in parallel with Navy and USMC air Forces working up the slot from Guadalcanal toward Fortress Rabaul.

 

So in short the New Guinea campaign was part necessity, part ego, part convenience, and part "this is all we got".

 

In the Spring of 1942 there was little else to think of besides defending assumed further aggression toward Australia, and protecting the link between the US and Oz.  From meager beginnings the USAAC, USN, and USMC built a massive war machine that engaged in a war of attrition in the SW Pacific, and in the end bypassed Rabaul once it was clear it was of little threat and the cost of taking it would not have been wort the trouble.

[hames123]

However, for there to be a BONG, there would have to be Infantry ground units, something I would really like to see. Devs please make this happen.

[InProgress]

They said ju52 will have mission to drop paratroopers so maybe some ground units will appear

[DD_Arthur]

Thanks for the summary Elf   Starting to realise what an interesting character MacArthur was!

 

Also, slightly off topic but this sentence stood out; 

 

So in short the New Guinea campaign was part necessity, part ego, part convenience, and part "this is all we got".

 

 

 

It's also a description of the RAF's night bombing campaign in WW2.

[PantsPilot]

Okinawa and Kamikazes for me.

But I tell you somewhere that REALLY needs doing and that's Burma. The only continuous air campaign against Japan that lasted 1941-45, and the Japs were still on the offensive in 1944 too. Got everything including strategic bombing and tactical strikes against factories, railways, road and river traffic etc. Miles more interesting than New Guinea IMO, and yes it would include the RAF SEAC, along with the AVG/USAAF and of course the IJAAF. So you'd get 3 airforces to play with - just think of the DLC possibilities there. 

[hames123]

+1 for Burma. The UKs longest continous front time wise and also the place where the Japanese lost the most men, over 200000, far more than what they lost in the Island hopping campaign.

Also Typhoons and Hawker Hurricanes attacking infantry columns in the jungles.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Okinawa and Kamikazes for me.

But I tell you somewhere that REALLY needs doing and that's Burma. The only continuous air campaign against Japan that lasted 1941-45, and the Japs were still on the offensive in 1944 too. Got everything including strategic bombing and tactical strikes against factories, railways, road and river traffic etc. Miles more interesting than New Guinea IMO, and yes it would include the RAF SEAC, along with the AVG/USAAF and of course the IJAAF. So you'd get 3 airforces to play with - just think of the DLC possibilities there. 

 

Burma is an interesting theater but its also fairly large and kind of a backwater so the air combat is perhaps a little less interesting. I've read about operations there and there are some interesting battles to be sure. But there is also a lot of missions such as the ones where RAF Hurricanes were tasked with strafing and bombing a small hut thought to be a communication relay or containing small arms. The devs would need to choose something fairly specific.

 

I'm also quite a fan of the fall of Singapore. The air battles were intense... but somewhat one sided.

 

+1 for Burma. The UKs longest continous front time wise and also the place where the Japanese lost the most men, over 200000, far more than what they lost in the Island hopping campaign.

Also Typhoons and Hawker Hurricanes attacking infantry columns in the jungles.

 

 

No Typhoons served outside of Europe. In-fact, none were operated anywhere except from Great Britain and later France/Belgium/Netherlands and Germany as the Allied forces moved up after D-Day. The Typhoon and Tempest are still my long running favs and if we want to see either of those... we'll need a Western Europe scenario. D-Day, Ardennes, battle of the low-countries, etc.

 

Most of the RAF Burma operations would be conducted with Hurricane II and IV, Beaufighter X, and some Spitfire V and VIII as well as small numbers of Thunderbolt I and IIs. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[BlitzPig_EL]

The RAF also operated some Curtiss Hawk 75s in Burma as well.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

I have to say that it I am a tad surprised that so many discuss what kind of missions should be available in diffrent scenarios/areas. That some areas are limited because only a certain kind of action took part there... historically....(!)

 

Why should we feel constrained by that? Why can't we investigate scenarios, create new missions that never took place but Could have? If we only made scenarios/mission based on what happened, I think most of us would get bored quite quickly. This hobby of ours demands some tweaks and adaption from real missions as it is.. and we should include what ifs scenarios.. it's not new.

 

What matters and sets limitations are geography and available planes and sea/land assets.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well put Klunk, I completely agree with you.

 

In original IL2 I used the maps we had to make scenarios for places we didn't have, and they were fun to build and to fly.

 

People need to let go sometimes.

 

Cheers sir.

[Gambit21]

Well put Klunk, I completely agree with you.

 

In original IL2 I used the maps we had to make scenarios for places we didn't have, and they were fun to build and to fly.

 

People need to let go sometimes.

 

Cheers sir.

 

Indeed.

If the current plan remains unchanged, I fully plan on making a Solomons campaign using the Okinawa map. Zekes, Wildcats and other appropriate aircraft.

This will likely be my preferred use of that map - and can you blame me?