Ok, sell me the Pacific theatre planes.

[TheElf]

I'm all for Guadalcanal, or even an AVG type campaign... carriers never flipped my switch I'm afraid.

In fact, I can't understand why the dev's are going to Okinawa after Midway... the next logical step would be Guadalcanal!

 

Concur.  Either GC or New Guinea '42 (Battle of Port Moresby).

 

In fact I think the Battle of Port Moresby and a Battle of the Coral Sea combo would make the most sense of all the options out there.  Then Midway/GC then either a Solomons '43 or New Guinea '43.  The maps would be done already and they could focus on the new planes. 

[Dakpilot]

They're not mutually exclusive factors - it was both as well as other factors.

The Zeke was the most common fighter until the end of the war, and while there were changes along the way between A6m2 and A6m5, those changes did not amount to much

in the face of the F6F-5 and the Corsair. Yes by the time the A6m5c came along near the end of 1944 many of the pilots were gone, with few experienced pilots around to talk about living through a burst

of .050 cal because of self sealing tanks. 

 

The defeat of the Japanese Navy was due to many things, poor decision making by the upper echelons, infighting and missed opportunities being no small part of the equation.

 

One of the most staggering  figures of Pacific war is this

 

Wartime (41 on) production of Aircraft Carriers

 

Japan = 17

 

U.S.    = 141

 

Even at Battle of Coral Sea, losses of pilots could not be replaced quickly and efficiently enough for Zuikaku to take part at Midway, even though she sustained no damage, in May 42 a pattern was already set

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[JtD]

The pattern started to show even earlier, with Shoho not getting full aircraft complement for the battle of the Coral Sea - apparently shipping 18 instead of 30, including four A5M fighters in addition to eight A6M's.

 

To be fair with regards to the carrier numbers, the majority of the fleet carriers (i.e. Essex class) arrived late in the war. Just four of them were commissioned before 1944. But more importantly, the figure also includes CVE's, basically merchant hulls with a flat top bolted onto them. 124 CVE's were launched or converted by the US during the war. The Japanese built about 10.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Something isnt working for me with quotes again, nothing appears when I paste quoted part into my post.

 

I absolutely agree.  The early F6F Hellcat is on very even terms with the Zeke.  It is another "blondes vs brunettes" line up and should be lots of fun. 

 

From the facts I have seen, the defeat of the IJN pilots was not about aircraft performance as much as pilot training and experience.

It wouldnt be fair to say that F6F performance did not have an impact. With its speed aircraft could engage and disengage allowing pilots to hit attack aircraft with certain levels of immunity (unless caught in climb or maneuver). It also had very good load of ammunition and protection, even in front quarter. 

 

But in general the performance of F6F was a lesser factor then overall changes happening to the US Navy in form of its technology, tactics and doctrine. Use of radar and fully radar guided CAP were in my opinion single most important factor since Hellcats could intercept incoming attack miles away from ships, knowing the position and altitude of the enemy and thus they could take superior position before launching strike. Every wave during Philippine Sea was opposed by large radar guided group of Hellcats. 

The other thing is of course pilot skills and tactics in which at that point US pilots exceeded Japanese having amassed on average twice as much time in the air. 

What many however omit or forget was the fact of intelligence. Since late 1942 a well established intelligence units (so called "The Zoo", CINCPAC and JICPOA) were taking all the advantage of intercepted communications of Japanese fleets, captured documents and all kinds of other sources. Having hundreds of nisei in their use, Americans could effectively read daily orders and reports. Such vast knowledge was delivered to Task Forces giving a massive advantage to every American commander over his Japanese counterpart. Battle of Philippine Sea was largely decided by ability of intelligence to predict fleet movements and answer them properly (Japanese submarine lines that were supposed to be used as early warning and a way to somehow reduce amount of aircraft carriers on US side were known and submarines were under continuous attack, leading to loss of dozen if not more of them). 

 

The Zeke was the most common fighter until the end of the war, and while there were changes along the way between A6m2 and A6m5, those changes did not amount to much

in the face of the F6F-5 and the Corsair. Yes by the time the A6m5c came along near the end of 1944 many of the pilots were gone, with few experienced pilots around to talk about living through a burst

of .050 cal because of self sealing tanks. 

That is of course if one would consider A6M5c an improvement ...

 

The defeat of the Japanese Navy was due to many things, poor decision making by the upper echelons, infighting and missed opportunities being no small part of the equation.

"We started hearing about the defeat at Midway from the carrier pilots. The more I heard their stories, the angrier I was. Not towards the enemy, but towards Vice Admiral Nagumo and his staff who took command. Their panic stricken and errornous decisions after finding the US carriers, failure to recover from damages, and most of all, to the fact that they got on board a destroyer and left the Akagi while the crew were desparately fighting the raging fire.

 

Their rationale for leaving the ship was that if they were killed, there would be nobody to take command of the fleet. However, a dive bomber pilot spoke for all of us in heavy downtown Tokyo accent, "What command? All we could do then was pack up and go home. Anyone can do that!".

 

One of us floatplane pilots remarked "Gee, I'm starting to feel down, being lead into battle by guys like that.", and the dive bomber crew snapped back. "We've been sick and tired of them for a long time".

Shito No Suiteitai by Hiroshi Yasunaga who was E13A and C6N pilot.

 

Even at Battle of Coral Sea, losses of pilots could not be replaced quickly and efficiently enough for Zuikaku to take part at Midway, even though she sustained no damage, in May 42 a pattern was already set

That's not entirely true. Losses could be replaced and at that point there were still some reserves. Most noticeably it could receive more men from her sistership - Shokaku. But the way Japanese carrier groups were organized it wouldn't be so easy. It's been debated before for long why Zuikaku was not launched with Shokaku Air Group for Midway so I wont argue on that. But thing is that its not merely as easy to replace pilots as they work as a group, and group without training together and knowing each other is not a fully functional strike group.

 

 

The pattern started to show even earlier, with Shoho not getting full aircraft complement for the battle of the Coral Sea - apparently shipping 18 instead of 30, including four A5M fighters in addition to eight A6M's.

Shoho carried 22 aircraft of which 17 were operational (and other five were put into crates, could be used for replacements). General issue here was insufficient production of Zeros, despite Navy demands Mitsubishi could not satisfy it and Nakajima was only catching up in production. While Shoho carried almost full attack group of B5Ns it only had half of fighters and couple of them were as you say A5Ms.  

[Crump]

 

 

It wouldnt be fair to say that F6F performance did not have an impact.

 

I agree.  It had an impact because it was the first US Naval fighter that was equal to the Zeke. 

[Dakpilot]

 

 

That's not entirely true. Losses could be replaced and at that point there were still some reserves. Most noticeably it could receive more men from her sistership - Shokaku. But the way Japanese carrier groups were organized it wouldn't be so easy. It's been debated before for long why Zuikaku was not launched with Shokaku Air Group for Midway so I wont argue on that. But thing is that its not merely as easy to replace pilots as they work as a group, and group without training together and knowing each other is not a fully functional strike group.

 

 

 

Fully agree, which is why I said the Pilots could not be replaced quickly and efficiently, not that they did not have any replacements at that time, it was a flaw in their doctrine, although the rate of attrition would soon be unsurmountable regardless.

 

I read an article somewhere suggesting that Japanese Naval aviations big flaw was that it was too elite..the standards were too high only taking the absolute very best, I recall them being chosen at 13 years old and only 1 in a hundred would be selected to later go on for training as Naval pilot, this obviously in the earlier years, but this methodology missed out on many perfectly competent candidates who would really have been suitable, thereby reducing the pool for replacements later.

 

I may have recalled that article incorrectly so take it as a generalization

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[BlitzPig_EL]

You are correct Dak.

 

Both the IJN and IJA washed out trainees to crew positions that would have been aces in any Western air force.

 

Early on they only wanted the best of the best, but they didn't understand that the next tier down was still bloody good.

Edited October 14, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[J2_Trupobaw]

You are correct Dak.

 

Both the IJN and IJA washed out trainees to crew positions that would have been aces in any Western air force.

 

Early on they only wanted the best of the best, but they didn't understand that the next tier down was still bloody good.

 

From what you all say it sounds to me like another instance of beauty contest vs bureaucracy worldview in military aviation... forces that put emphasis on individual talent, having very best pilots and hoping their excellence will win the war (beauty contest) vs forces that try to create frameworks that allow group of average pilots fight as efficiently as smaller group of talented ones - even if this framework seems limiting to the very best pilots? Thatch Wave seems like epithome of "framework beats individual talent" approach.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Trupobaw

[ShamrockOneFive]

From what you all say it sounds to me like another instance of beauty contest vs bureaucracy worldview in military aviation... forces that put emphasis on individual talent, having very best pilots and hoping their excellence will win the war (beauty contest) vs forces that try to create frameworks that allow group of average pilots fight as efficiently as smaller group of talented ones - even if this framework seems limiting to the very best pilots? Thatch Wave seems like epithome of "framework beats individual talent" approach.

 

 

 

And that is part of the fascinating series of contradictions that is the Japanese forces in WWII. On one hand you have these fighter pilots who are considered "samurai of the sky" with very individual based tactics. The Zero and Oscar fighters worked well in the early years of the war as very individualistic fighting machines where a close in dogfighting match would be determined by their maneuvering skill. On the other hand, individual kill counts and kill markings was, for a time, frowned upon.

 

I should ask... Have we achieved the necessary level of interest for you in the Pacific? More interesting and varied theater than originally thought?

Edited October 14, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[J2_Trupobaw]

If I tell you, you may consider your job done and stop updating this thread with all this interesting stuff I enjoy reading...

Yes, yes you did  .

[Brizzly]

If I tell you, you may consider your job done and stop updating this thread with all this interesting stuff I enjoy reading...

Yes, yes you did  .

Nice, a thread that actually has a happy ending...

[ShamrockOneFive]

If I tell you, you may consider your job done and stop updating this thread with all this interesting stuff I enjoy reading...

Yes, yes you did  .

 

Excellent!

 

Hopefully more interesting discussion comes up. If it benefited you, it could certainly benefit others as well!

[Halon]

The PTO is a fascinating theatre, I'd really like to see the desperate fighting in Burma, the Soviet-Japanese border conflicts like the Battle of Khalkin Gol which could work as its own campaign, as well as the more famous American and Japanese battles. I've no problem with operating over the sea, the ocean is no less interesting than the featureless snow covered russian steppes (as pretty as they can be I'm sure!). Features like jungle covered islands islands, reefs and coast lines, changeable weather and rough sea states all give plenty of opportunities for the PTO to be very different and interesting, and thats before contending with carrier operations and muddy jungle airfields.

 

Current favourite aircraft is the I-16, favourite PTO aircraft would probably be Grumman TBF Avenger (I love its size, shape and history)

 

 

 

F4U Corsair. A bent wing oddity designed for carrier decks but with a nasty stall that kept it off of them for years. The USMC turned it into a magnificent fighter and a deadly foe.

Actually I'd like to suggest that its the Royal Navy you can thank for that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair#Enhancement_for_carrier_suitability not that I'm biased or anything...

[wtornado]

Sort of funny that there is so much talk in here about the Pacific and not much is said on the Kuban this past week.

[Halon]

Still keen on Kuban, but mostly for the campaign changes, the nuts and bolts etc. Personally I'd really like to see Spain or Africa.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Not entirely related but yesterday was publicly presented Kawasaki Ki-61-II Serial No. 6117 :

http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASJBF5R4NJBFPLFA00N.html?iref=comtop_photo

 

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/img/car/docs/1024/728/html/05.jpg.html

 

https://twitter.com/Radio_Kansai_PR/status/786446145849430016

 

It's hard to say that aircraft was restored, more like preserved due to very rigorous program. As someone said: "they have sympathetically conserved the aircraft, so that future generations can continue to study it." At least they removed that ugly paint that was before, cleaned airframe and replaced rivets. Though there are already discussions and pictures of how badly they did some of it and its not a good job. Either way its a last Ki-61-II so its better than nothing. 

[Crump]

 

 

Not entirely related but yesterday was publicly presented Kawasaki Ki-61-II Serial No. 6117 :

 

Beautiful airplane.  Thanks for sharing. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

My pleasure, it is beautiful. Though I prefer slightly different model, with bubble canopy:

 

 

 

Sidenote: Picture of this models do not belong to me.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Not entirely related but yesterday was publicly presented Kawasaki Ki-61-II Serial No. 6117 :

http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASJBF5R4NJBFPLFA00N.html?iref=comtop_photo

 

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/img/car/docs/1024/728/html/05.jpg.html

 

https://twitter.com/Radio_Kansai_PR/status/786446145849430016

 

It's hard to say that aircraft was restored, more like preserved due to very rigorous program. As someone said: "they have sympathetically conserved the aircraft, so that future generations can continue to study it." At least they removed that ugly paint that was before, cleaned airframe and replaced rivets. Though there are already discussions and pictures of how badly they did some of it and its not a good job. Either way its a last Ki-61-II so its better than nothing. 

That is spectacular for me. I didn't know any Ki-61-II models still existed at all. They were a rarity to begin with...

 

I really do hope that we get back to the Ki-61 sometime... its become my favourite Japanese fighter along with the Ki-100. I became something of a specialist with the type in Pacific Fighters and I was overjoyed with the Ki-100 even if its performance wasn't top notch. I managed to get a lot out of it and used its strengths against the enemies weakness. A really great plane to fly.

[Feathered_IV]

There are a couple of Ki-61s being built to fly in Australia. 

 

[JtD]

The Ki-61 is my favourite Japanese fighter. Which is kind of odd, given that I usually prefer radial engined fighters and brute looks, while the Ki-61 is the only relevant Japanese fighter that has got a inline engine, and I like it for the elegance.

The Ki-61 II with the bubble canopy is also very beautiful, I wish it had been around in sufficient numbers, so that we'd get to see it in PTO flight sims.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Beautiful aircraft. You can really see the resemblance to the MC.202, hence the code name.

[CUJO_1970]

Mind explaining why ? I mean ... what seems to be the problem with Pacific in your opinion CUJO ?

 

The move to the Pacific theatre will effectively end development of the ETO for years, and possibly end it altogether. That is hugely disappointing for me. I hate to see the further development of the eastern front terminated, along with the vanishing hope of North Africa/MTO.

 

So, not the PTO per se, but everything that is sacrificed to make it happen.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Beautiful aircraft. You can really see the resemblance to the MC.202, hence the code name.

The engine choice and part of the design was based on the Heinkel 100 which Japan aquired in the pre war years to study foreign design.

Japan wasn't very familiar with inline engines and so they build the originally used Daimler Benz engine with slight modifications to increase operation safety in license.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

@CUJO I don't think they would kill the franchise by stubbornly staying in the Pacific if sales are not what they want. If Midway is disappointing they could return to Europe (east or west) right after. Plus there are things like premium planes and maps that could be added to satisfy a Euro craving. Have faith!

@5tuka I guess I'm wrong, it looks nothing like a Macchi, sorry. That's why it's US codename was "Heini" not "Tony". Oh, wait. All joking aside, I was referring to the resemblance not the actual design which the US thought was copied from the Macchi, I would guess both the MC.202 and Ki-60/Ki-61 could be considered covergent evolution based on the DB engine. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by II./ZG1_HarryM

[LLv24_Zami]

Ki-61 is a nice looking plane! With bubble canopy looks even better. I was recalling there were some ties to the German design like 5tuka stated above.

 

There are great planes in every theater of WW2, looking forward to fly in the Pacific after Kuban 

[CUJO_1970]

@CUJO I don't think they would kill the franchise by stubbornly staying in the Pacific if sales are not what they want. If Midway is disappointing they could return to Europe (east or west) right after. Plus there are things like premium planes and maps that could be added to satisfy a Euro craving. Have faith!

 

Oh I never said PTO is going to kill the franchise at all. In fact I think PTO will likely sell OK and even broaden the customer market.

 

But it will effectively terminate ETO and possible MTO development for the foreseeable future and by that I mean for the next 18 months, minimum.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

There are a couple of Ki-61s being built to fly in Australia. 

Kermit Weeks says its Border Aerospace Fabrication in Wangaratta (somewhere halfway between Canberra and Melbourne if I'm not mistaken) that is doing that Ki-61-I for him and Jerry Yegan. Of course if its the same one which I assume is since there arent many Hien wrecks left around. They plan on using original Ha-40 engine since they have two available although they require a lot of work so in worst case scenario it will land with German DB 601 which Kermit has available. 

 

I'd expect Kermit Cam of this one and man, I'm already excited. 

 

 

 

The engine choice and part of the design was based on the Heinkel 100 which Japan aquired in the pre war years to study foreign design.

Most important thing taken from He-100 was engine mounting which was integral part of airframe which saved weight. On the other hand it shared same NACA 2R1 airfoil with 109 at wingroot, although it was slightly thicker. But its not wrong to assume some similarities with Mc 202, first reports from US pilots assumed its either Me 109 or Mc 202.

 

 

 

I would guess both the MC.202 and Ki-60/Ki-61 could be considered covergent evolution based on the DB engine. 

Yes, probably peak of Db 601 Aa evolution. Both could compete with 109 F-2.

 

 

 

The move to the Pacific theatre will effectively end development of the ETO for years, and possibly end it altogether. That is hugely disappointing for me. I hate to see the further development of the eastern front terminated, along with the vanishing hope of North Africa/MTO. So, not the PTO per se, but everything that is sacrificed to make it happen. But it will effectively terminate ETO and possible MTO development for the foreseeable future and by that I mean for the next 18 months, minimum. 

 

Yes and no. For a few years there probably wont be ETO dedicated expansion (but who knows?) but I dont think it will end it. But most importantly, if there wouldnt be PTO then argument could be reversed that everything is being focused on Luftwaffe along with Soviets (or if we move west, on Allies) at the expense of Pacific which is being neglected yet again. It was simply a world war.

 

Frankly, as I explained in the other thread I believe that with already existing German planeset and upcoming machines with Kuban (and expected more after it with small packs) Luftwaffe has a solid planeset for any Mediterranean scenario. In regard to Allies, well, there will be already Spitfire, A-20, P-40, P-39. Further aircraft can come with Pacific (P-38, F4F, B-25, Beaufighter). All that will be needed really is a proper map of Northern Afrika or Sicily. If there would be a solid group that would give it a try I'd be happy to make a donation so such development could make Med fans happy. Brano can tell you what happens where organized group with some resources makes an effort and what can they deliver. 

[Cybermat47]

The move to the Pacific theatre will effectively end development of the ETO for years, and possibly end it altogether. That is hugely disappointing for me. I hate to see the further development of the eastern front terminated, along with the vanishing hope of North Africa/MTO.

So, not the PTO per se, but everything that is sacrificed to make it happen.

We're getting North Africa in CloD sometime next year, so personally I'm happy to see the Pacific coming next from 777/1C. And plus, as much as I love the current German aircraft in BoS, BoM, and BoK, getting nothing but variants of them all for years to come isn't an overly exciting prospect to me, especially when compared to the (at least!) seven completely new Air Forces (IJNAS, IJAAS, USN, USAAF, USMCA, RAAF, RNFAA) and all the brand-new aircraft that the Far Eastern Front brings.

 

Still, I can understand where you're coming from, but don't worry. Jason said that he wants to cover all of WWII eventually, so I'm sure we'll get some Mediterranean and Western Front action before too long

Edited October 15, 2016 by Cybermat47

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, now is a good time to repost my old UBI forum sig pic...

 

 

One of my very favorite aircraft of all time.

 

 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Seems like Hien is THAT kind of aircraft 

 

 

 

Source: "A pictorial history of 244th Sentai, Tokyo's Defenders" by Takashi Sakurai, Dainippon Kaiga Co., Japan. 

[Porkins]

I think you'd love PTO if you gave it a chance. Top reasons it excites me are the plane possibilities:

 

1 - P-38 Lightning - A beast of a fighter that would be very different to fly compared to traditional WWII fighters. Great speed, armament, and range.

 

2 - Zero - Again, should have very unique handling compared to European/US fighters. Reportedly was a joy to fly.

 

3 - Hellcat - A brute of a plane with a 19:1 kill ratio, the polar opposite of the Zero.

 

4 - Spitfire - They could sneak this one in as a RAF plane.

 

5 - Judy - Extremely fast dive bomber for IJN

 

6 - Torpedo planes and floatplanes. Again, very different from anything we've seen so far with new IL-2.

 

7 - Corsair - A fantastic gull winged ground attack fighter.

 

8 - P-51 Mustang - Cadillac of the sky! Arguably the most capable single engine fighter of WW II.

 

9 - Ki-84 - A super fast late war Japanese fighter that technically was a match for anything flying.

 

The other thing that excites me is fleet action in general. Dive bombing a tank or truck is all well and good, but consider making a torpedo run low over the water with flack bursting all around and fighters coming in to attack, then firing off a torpedo that sends a huge battleship to the bottom of the ocean. Or screaming down in a dive bombing run and planting a 1,000 pound bomb right on the flight deck of a carrier.

 

Regarding your concern about lots of ocean, I imagine a Pacific game would include islands. Even the battle of Midway saw air action on the island of Midway. Enough to generate ground attack missions on hard targets.

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Porkins

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

BlitzPig_EL, 244th Sentai, late war, Tokyo.

 

 

(Yes that's really me).

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

You better put that oxygen mask quickly before someone notices  

[Feathered_IV]

Seems like Hien is THAT kind of aircraft 

 

 

Source: "A pictorial history of 244th Sentai, Tokyo's Defenders" by Takashi Sakurai, Dainippon Kaiga Co., Japan.

 

Hiromachi, Are you able to comment on that book? I'd been thinking of ordering it, but wasn't sure how useful it would be to a non-japanese reader.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Sure, its a picture album with a few pictures that were digitally colored and few drawings to present proper camouflages used by the unit, while rest are only available in old black-white shade. Book is entirely in Japanese and English as well - basically every picture has its description in English and Japanese so its not a problem if you cant into Japanese. There are three exceptions to that: a brief chapter giving some technical notes, chapter titled "Shunkichi Kikuchi andthe 244th Sentai" which I assume is a story brought by a member of the unit and chapter "Tokyo's Chofu Airfield during wartime". They are however not long and rest of the book is entirely readable.

But just to make sure, this a pictorial album, not written unit history. Book contains 130 pages full of high quality pictures (when I scanned few of them I realized how good they are as even when I zoom minor detail, they are still relatively clear). It's definitely worth it if that's what you are looking for Feathered. 

 

But it surly gives a beautiful shots of Hien. And crews (both pilots and ground crews). I was charmed by this picture showing pilots playing baseball while mechanics were fixing one of the birds during the winter period (snow was in the background):

 

 

 

 

It's also first time I've learn that baseball was quite popular in Japan even before the war. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[DD_Arthur]

 

(Yes that's really me).

 

No it's not.  Thats Billfish with a stick-on beard.   

Edited October 16, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

I wonder what happened to our former resident IJAAC expert?

[Feathered_IV]

I rather miss those holiday snaps.

[unreasonable]

Well, now is a good time to repost my old UBI forum sig pic...

 

 

One of my very favorite aircraft of all time.

 

 

 

 

Nice picture! But why is it that every time I see a picture of this plane my immediate reaction is that the designers have installed the engine upside down and the wings back to front.  

 

 

All that will be needed really is a proper map of Northern Afrika or Sicily. If there would be a solid group that would give it a try I'd be happy to make a donation so such development could make Med fans happy. Brano can tell you what happens where organized group with some resources makes an effort and what can they deliver. 

 

Me too. Tunisia or El Alemein area would work.