Ok, sell me the Pacific theatre planes.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Looks very nice Gambit. Here are few scans I got using my home scanner, the white breathroughs are drwaings or data from following page, I did not think its going to look that way. Next time I will have to put something between the pages to separate them from being scanned:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

I'll lay those over my current drawings and see how they match up - thank you!

[ACG_KaiLae]

You ever consider doing anything for Team Fusion, Gambit?

[Gambit21]

Nah - never had a desire to get involved with that sim after my initial experience.

[Mac_Messer]

Why do you think pto threads, posts outnumber kuban threads, post what seems like 10 to 1 now? Yea we need more of that stuff that damned bom to nothingness. Jason had to step in to help save this game after the huge success bom turned out to be. Even kuban is trying to get away with those lead lease planes. The truth is in the money, which fact is has dried up on the eastern front. Just the hope of going somewhere else will (hope) float this game along.

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway. If you`re saying the Midway/Guinea is going to save the series, it is a far fetched idea.  About what you said - the monies speak that Midway/Guinea is bad. The reason why we got more pacific type posts is that the Pacific campaign in this game series is an extremely risky, extremely unknown venture, thus the speculation. This is a jump into a deep water (pun intended!). Whereas the Kuban is pretty much a no brainer. You just throw in some Lend Lease planes, some ships, a new map and some more known VVS/LW planes - it works.

[Feathered_IV]

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title

I suspect a large part of that was due to the game being leaked and put onto torrent just weeks before its release. Oleg Maddox said his team had monitored it and reported in excess of 60,000 illegal downloads in the first week. That's a hell of a lot for any flight sim.

[Crump]

 

 

I suspect a large part of that was due to the game being leaked and put onto torrent just weeks before its release. Oleg Maddox said his team had monitored it and reported in excess of 60,000 illegal downloads in the first week. That's a hell of a lot for any flight sim.

 

That is screwed up. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

That is screwed up.

They weren't first nor the last to suffer that Crump, unfortunately piracy is a scum that is present and probably will be for good. 

 

But not only that was a problem, and certainly Pacific itself was not, even if some European players did not look forward to it. Pacific Fighters launched with lower scores than former (and later) expansions, game had bugs and flight models were highly questioned back in the day, just look at this old reviews (back in those days when there were guys in all those fancy portals who actually could review flight sims): http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/pacific-fighters-review/1900-6111857/ 

 

Most of the new planes are practically impossible to stall when they are flown at full throttle, even if the stick is jerked all the way back or to the sides. Quick movements like that were enough to induce stalls in previous entries in this series, and players had to really work the stick to turn or loop efficiently without stalling in the process. All of the American naval fighters included in this package can loop indefinitely and turn indefinitely with full stick deflection throughout the entire maneuver. Some of the Japanese planes like the Val and Oscar also exhibit this behavior, ... Some of these planes, early Corsairs in particular, were notorious for their tricky handling, but in this sim it is possible to yank the stick in any direction until it stops, and you can maintain impossibly long turns and loops without bleeding off a lot of speed, all without worrying about stalling. This may be intentional, or it may be the by-product of having to tweak many of these planes to have terrific low-speed behavior for carrier landings, but it just doesn't feel like the IL-2 of the past.

 

This is a product that evidently shipped too soon and it badly needs a patch, although it is impossible to know if a mere update can fix all of the issues with the flight models, the dynamic campaign, and the suicidal AI. Until then, this is still the best way to get your PTO air combat fix, but it unfortunately marks the low point in an otherwise excellent series.

 

Or this one where absence of some key elements is noted as well: http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/11/05/pacific-fighters

While there's a nice variety of planes to fly here, the absence of flyable models of the Jill or the Avenger means that the game has no torpedo combat whatsoever. And this is a game about World War 2?

 

Though I liked IL-2 and its subsequent expansions, Pacific Fighters left me wanting more...and in a bad way. The wide variety of planes certainly have their historical performance characteristics but, overall, the flight modeling just isn't as tight as I expected. Add to that the lackluster content of the missions and some outright mistakes on the part of the artificial intelligence and you've got a game that barely scrapes by.

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/pacific-fighters

 

I dont think that lower sales and rates of Pacific Fighters had much to do with theater itself, there certainly were disappointed fans of western front or north Africa or whatever else could be added in the day, but at the same time there were many guys waiting for this expansion. It was rather too rushed, lacking key elements like torpedo bombers and not adding much into mission variety. Poor flight models and suicidal Ai did not improve the situation. Add to that what Feathered said, makes no surprise that overall it was having lower scores and lower sales than its predecessors.

Edited October 31, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[bzc3lk]

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway.

 

I think what you're saying makes no sense, refer link below for Oleg Maddox interview.

 

http://www.simhq.com/air-combat/il-2-sturmovik-part3.html

 

Especially this part-    "Oleg: Aces Expansion Pack sold the worst. Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters both sold very well."

Edited October 31, 2016 by bzc3lk

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Thats a good finding bzc3lk !

 

Seems it wasnt that bad with sales after all, I tried to look for some numbers but thats not so easy to come up. 

 

 

And there were some serious fun killers, like the laser accuracy of the 20mm rear gunners on the Japanese Betty bombers.

Wait, that reminds me of something ...  I guess some things change, but others dont

[bzc3lk]

I personally loved the Pacific Fighter edition, especially after the game was modded with all the extra Japanese aircraft and carriers by the community.

[MiloMorai]

Two Japanese B-29 aces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makoto_Ogawa_(pilot)

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AGpa6MzNv8ootb0&cid=682D69A38C0BA941&id=682D69A38C0BA941%212573&parId=root&o=OneUp

[sinned]

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway.

Despite published Oleg's interview (re: popularity of pacific fighters), I see this claim quite often in this forum. Usually from threads that are generally against PTO. I am curious what the sources of low pacific fighter sales are. I cannot imagine such a strong statement is just made up.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It doea not make sense to compare apples with oranges. I'm very confident that a PTO expansion sells at lesat as good as another eastern front expansion.

[Gambit21]

The reason why we got more pacific type posts is that the Pacific campaign in this game series is an extremely risky, extremely unknown venture, thus the speculation. .

Nope - it's because we're excited to be going back to the Pacific finally.

It doea not make sense to compare apples with oranges. I'm very confident that a PTO expansion sells at lesat as good as another eastern front expansion.

Yep - at least.

This is somewhat contingent on a sensible plan for the progression of the maps and plane sets however.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Gambit21

[Lusekofte]

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway.

 

Historical true, yes. But there is no doubt to the fact  that Midway will bring in new people to this sim, but it would not compete with the people brought in to this sim with BOM and BOS. I am positive to this expansion mostly because of these planes. in correct order

 

1. "Devastator"
2. "Dauntless"
3. "Kate"
4. "Val"
5. "Catalina" ( I do not expect this one, but it would be a crime not to include it)
6. "Betty"

If one of these planes are missing from the pack , I will get so disappointed , that I probably would not buy this extension. Because to me this is the PTO

Edited October 31, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Mac_Messer]

Despite published Oleg's interview (re: popularity of pacific fighters), I see this claim quite often in this forum. Usually from threads that are generally against PTO. I am curious what the sources of low pacific fighter sales are. I cannot imagine such a strong statement is just made up.

Oleg wasn`t the only IL2 developper that was vocal on the official forum. I think I remember Luthier being one of the others that visited. I think I got that from him but now I can`t for the love of me find such a quote. And PF was pirated pretty widely.

I think what you're saying makes no sense, refer link below for Oleg Maddox interview.

 

http://www.simhq.com/air-combat/il-2-sturmovik-part3.html

 

Especially this part-    "Oleg: Aces Expansion Pack sold the worst. Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters both sold very well."

I remember reading one of the devs saying that both AEP and PF flopped. Either way, those interested in IL2 wery well knew that after PF, IL2 series wasn`t going to have a future.

Nope - it's because we're excited to be going back to the Pacific finally.

Yep - at least.

This is somewhat contingent on a sensible plan for the progression of the maps and plane sets however.

No. You just do not know anything about it, so you speculate.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Mac_Messer

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Honestly, what I want to see, and which is something no flight sim, that I know has done, I think , is ships to do evasive maneuvers when they are under dive/torpedo attacks.

[[TWB]80hd]

Honestly, what I want to see, and which is something no flight sim, that I know has done, I think , is ships to do evasive maneuvers when they are under dive/torpedo attacks.

 

Agreed...  the trick of course is getting them to do them with some semblance of effectiveness and at the same time avoid running into each other (most of the time anyway)

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

A co-ordinated defensive maneuvers are one heck of task, especially as Jason wished to see submarines as well, I have for instance a few zigzagging maneuvers for US and Japanese fleets. Coordinating such maneuver when a formation of battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers was sailing, required a lot of skill and experience. Same goes for defensive maneuvers against aircraft attacks, not to even mention battle formations for combat against other fleet.

 

If accomplished, this will be a blast. And it will also make our life much harder, since striking a maneuvering ship with single aircraft wont be easy at all.One will have to work in group and attack from various directions. 

[Gambit21]

No. You just do not know anything about it, so you speculate.

Unintentionally ironic post of the month

[VBF-12_Snake9]

What you`re saying makes no sense. The Pacific Fighters were the worst selling IL2 title and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway. If you`re saying the Midway/Guinea is going to save the series, it is a far fetched idea. About what you said - the monies speak that Midway/Guinea is bad. The reason why we got more pacific type posts is that the Pacific campaign in this game series is an extremely risky, extremely unknown venture, thus the speculation. This is a jump into a deep water (pun intended!). Whereas the Kuban is pretty much a no brainer. You just throw in some Lend Lease planes, some ships, a new map and some more known VVS/LW planes - it works.

Lol That's all. Lol

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

#Make Il-2 Great Again !

[Gambit21]

Snake

 

Exactly - putting it nicely

Edited October 31, 2016 by Gambit21

[Gambit21]

#Make Il-2 Great Again !

 

Word!

[Feathered_IV]

I remember reading one of the devs saying that both AEP and PF flopped. Either way, those interested in IL2 wery well knew that after PF, IL2 series wasn`t going to have a future.

That was because they were planning to finish the series and concentrate on the SoW/CloD title that was originally planned for a 2006 release.

[Gambit21]

That was because they were planning to finish the series and concentrate on the SoW/CloD title that was originally planned for a 2006 release.

 

Yeah - he forgets he's not the only one who's been around since the beginning and remembers things.

Truly ironic all the positive feedback on here regarding PTO, yet through his odd nonsensical filter we're only posting because we're "speculating"

"Funny" is one word for it, the more accurate terms I'm not allowed to post.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

They've struck a good balance with the trilogies - going elsewhere any sooner than BoK would feel half-baked, but any later would mean leaving the American/Commonwealth/Japanese (provided appropriate localisation is done) untouched for too long.

 

The basics are obvious - you need to maximise sales from your existing customers (ie those who like Sov.-Ger. conflict) because it's cheaper to sell to them due to less marketing costs, but you also need to look for new customers since the existing ones may not all buy the new product. By bringing new blood, many of those will potentially buy the existing expansions, and current users might buy the new one too. Everyone is happy and business is good.

[sinned]

Honestly, what I want to see, and which is something no flight sim, that I know has done, I think , is ships to do evasive maneuvers when they are under dive/torpedo attacks.

Fyi, Microprose 1942 Pacific Air War had the ship evasive manuever built in.

With today's standards, simple circling and slowing down/speed up when plane is within certain trigger range logic may be less than stellar. That said, it had good number of features that were second to none at its time.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Cute_retriever

[unreasonable]

A co-ordinated defensive maneuvers are one heck of task, especially as Jason wished to see submarines as well, I have for instance a few zigzagging maneuvers for US and Japanese fleets. Coordinating such maneuver when a formation of battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers was sailing, required a lot of skill and experience. Same goes for defensive maneuvers against aircraft attacks, not to even mention battle formations for combat against other fleet.

 

If accomplished, this will be a blast. And it will also make our life much harder, since striking a maneuvering ship with single aircraft wont be easy at all.One will have to work in group and attack from various directions. 

 

Just finished another couple of books you set as homework for myth sufferers which suggested that for the IJN at Midway this should not be too much of a problem. Their evasion tactics - at least for the larger ships - consisted of sticking the rudder hard over and just going around in a big circle, while their original box formation was very loose. Also, since the IJN supporting warships were scattered in a picket screen several kilometers away - outside effective AAA supporting range - the collision risk is negligible.

 

The AI ought to be able to handle this easily enough.   The tighter and more effective formations of the USN task forces would be harder, but in this case perhaps a rule that disallowed turns of more than 90 degrees away from the TF's general heading plus a requirement that port and starboard turns be alternated might get something like a realistic evasion pattern without having to make every ship too clever.

 

As for battle against another fleet - formations for this are easy: line ahead, turn together or consecutively.  I think we need to keep realistic expectations here about surface action though. The tank idea has not really worked, BoX just cannot be a land war simulator, and I cannot see BoX becoming an all round naval warfare simulator either.

Edited November 1, 2016 by unreasonable

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

which suggested that for the IJN at Midway this should not be too much of a problem. Their evasion tactics - at least for the larger ships - consisted of sticking the rudder hard over and just going around in a big circle, while their original box formation was very loose. Also, since the IJN supporting warships were scattered in a picket screen several kilometers away - outside effective AAA supporting range - the collision risk is negligible.

That is true, Japanese evasive maneuvers in early 1942 were carried individually in loose formations to give room for maneuvers. This hard turns were practically used until the end of the war (see the Cape Engano or Sibuyan Sea pictures, ships look like they make those "S" or "8" figures, dodging dive bombers and torpedo planes) and it was for the most part handled skillfully by their skippers, in case of Midway carriers avoided any hits from various attackers up until the final wave of SBD's arrived. In case of Cape Engano for example IJN Ise under command of skipper Matsuda Chiaki managed to dodge over 40 bombs dropped by SB2Cs from TF 38, none scored direct hit though quite a few were near misses slightly damaging hull below waterline.

Evasive actions were actually trained before operations which would indicate how some became so effective in avoiding hits.  

 

 

 

As for battle against another fleet - formations for this are easy: line ahead, turn together or consecutively.  I think we need to keep realistic expectations here about surface action though. The tank idea has not really worked, BoX just cannot be a land war simulator, and I cannot see BoX becoming an all round naval warfare simulator either.

True that, it's not going to be a naval sim. However if one would refer to Q&A with Jason, than importance of ships and quality of them is one of the top points he made.  I think some taste of it we should get with BoK.

[Mac_Messer]

That was because they were planning to finish the series and concentrate on the SoW/CloD title that was originally planned for a 2006 release.

That is just one of the visions that was put forward. And no, 2006 was long gone release date even when 1946 was scheduled to come out (yes, 2006). The other vision was that the devs would hand further development to certified team so IL2 would go on. Needless to say, the 2007 mod fest broke out that vision was scrapped. And then it was set that the official IL2 development would cease shortly after.

[Mac_Messer]

Yeah - he forgets he's not the only one who's been around since the beginning and remembers things.

Truly ironic all the positive feedback on here regarding PTO, yet through his odd nonsensical filter we're only posting because we're "speculating"

"Funny" is one word for it, the more accurate terms I'm not allowed to post.

The "positive feedback" is just your skewed view of things. It is one thread on here boards. Wake up, most of the forum is still Stalingrad, Moscow and Kuban. Yes, you do not know nothing more than just hypothetical map, planeset and even more hypothetical set of features. You have no idea if anything of that will actually work in the gameplay. You just want it to succeed so much you`re already making stuff up. And I don`t blame you. But don`t go on teling people that there are suddenly 50000 additional people just waiting for IL2 to introduce PTO. Because and idea of introducing PTO to IL2 is easy, making it a fun, robust and good selling reality is not.

 

"Funny" is all you can write about my explanation though you know it is true.

[Gambit21]

Uh huh

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

The "positive feedback" is just your skewed view of things. It is one thread on here boards. Wake up, most of the forum is still Stalingrad, Moscow and Kuban. Yes, you do not know nothing more than just hypothetical map, planeset and even more hypothetical set of features. You have no idea if anything of that will actually work in the gameplay. You just want it to succeed so much you`re already making stuff up. And I don`t blame you. But don`t go on teling people that there are suddenly 50000 additional people just waiting for IL2 to introduce PTO. Because and idea of introducing PTO to IL2 is easy, making it a fun, robust and good selling reality is not.

I'm sorry to interrupt this rant, but its not just one thread. We had quite a few threads on this boards related to Pacific long before it was even mentioned in Jason announcement, except speculation threads there are also suggestions, some threads in history and aviation section and even in free subject section. 

Yes, we do not know anything specific about actual Pacific expansion as of yet, probably because its anno Domini 2016, we are far from having Kuban and only close to getting Yak-1b/Ju-52 and most importantly DirectX 11 version of the game.

 

But based on Jason Q&A (just look how many questions were asked about PTO and how much Jason tried to explain his ideas, despite we are still having BoK in front of us) and those threads I'd say its not longer hypothetical, whether it will be Midway, New Guinea, Okinawa, Leyte or Burma its beyond doubt that next is Pacific, with great detail and attention given to naval aspect. And we can be sure that there will be a Zero and Wildcat somewhere, just like one would expect a 109 in any European expansion.    

 

And to top it, yes, we want it to succeed. With available technology things that were not possible 12 years ago, are now doable enhancing desire to have closest to reality Pacific combat simulator ever. 

 

I'd also like to raise counterargument, dont go on telling people how bad the prospects of Pacific are if you cant back it up - "and there is no reason to suspect different for Battle of Midway. If you`re saying the Midway/Guinea is going to save the series, it is a far fetched idea." It's not going to be easy, but somehow its being done for almost 20 years and there is no reason to believe that 1CGS cannot accomplish that as well. Not to mention that I dont think there is a need to "save" the series, implying that its about to step on a death row ...  

[216th_Jordan]

Well I guess the kind of phenomenon we see here is that some Luftwaffe only players feel betrayed because they get no luftwaffe planes. Well yeah, not everything revolves around the glorious luftwaffe and some people, me included like a bit of fresh air.

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

Well I guess the kind of phenomenon we see here is that some Luftwaffe only players feel betrayed because they get no luftwaffe planes. Well yeah, not everything revolves around the glorious luftwaffe and some people, me included like a bit of fresh air.

...What? In what way would Luftwaffe players be worse than VVS players in this regard? Neither air force is present at Midway.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well I guess the kind of phenomenon we see here is that some Luftwaffe only players feel betrayed because they get no luftwaffe planes. Well yeah, not everything revolves around the glorious luftwaffe and some people, me included like a bit of fresh air.

I think that has a LOT to do with the negativity towards the Pacific. I must say I've seen a lot more positive posts in regards to the pacific than negative. I'm disappointed that the only british aircraft we are going to see within the first four theatres will be the spitfire. There are a great deal of German aircraft already. Three theatres dedicated to the Germans and Soviets. I bought kuban purely for the spitfire and because the Pacific was next. I have no interest in any of the other aircraft, none of the other lend lease aircraft interest me. I've never understood the popularity of the P-39 it must be a cannon thing I'm guessing. So I'm supporting purely for the future.

I suggest the luftwhiners dry their eyes, once the Pacific is done there will be more toys for them to play with.

[216th_Jordan]

...What? In what way would Luftwaffe players be worse than VVS players in this regard? Neither air force is present at Midway.

Well I have not seen a lot of complaints by VVS only players. (I also guess there are not so many VVS only players)

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I've never understood the popularity of the P-39 it must be a cannon thing I'm guessing.

 

I really like the P-39 because of the looks, some features like the trycicle gear, the car-style doors, sleek nose and bubble-like rear canopy, and the upper air intake.

 

She is a beauty

 

 

Also the historical backround... how it wasn't liked by the western allies but loved by the soviets, making it work pretty well. The 37mm is tempting but I would like more the 20mm against fighters.

Edited November 1, 2016 by SuperEtendard