Hs-129 B-2 discussion

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Guys, for all who are interested in Hs129-related books, look into my Google disc.

Nice collection, thanks for posting PzB!

[Trinkof]

Thanks Panzerbar !

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

 

 

 

Sorry for the threadromancy - had to share this one!

[TAAC_Blue]

That's a small office.

[ZachariasX]

With the canopy on, there's definitely not even room for a fart.

[Finkeren]

[Dutchvdm]

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the threadromancy - had to share this one!

 

Nice picture indeed. Illustrates perfectly how cramped the cockpit is. It's Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer btw. I think the most well known Henschel pilot's. Can't wait for this plane in BOK to arrive. 

 

Grt M

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Nice picture indeed. Illustrates perfectly how cramped the cockpit is. It's Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer btw. I think the most well known Henschel pilot's. Can't wait for this plane in BOK to arrive. 

 

Grt M

 

Thanks for the info!

 

Looking at the 129 from the outside, it's obvious that its a small aircraft strapped to a couple of engines but seeing how little room there is in the pit really puts it in to perspective.

[Finkeren]

Imagine how it'll be for the VR guys getting used to that small a cockpit. They are gonna be banging their heads against the armoured glass so hard, it's gonna sound like a Dragonforce concert.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Imagine how it'll be for the VR guys getting used to that small a cockpit. They are gonna be banging their heads against the armoured glass so hard, it's gonna sound like a Dragonforce concert.

 

I get claustrophobia pretty bad... Good thing I'm not a VR user!   

[ZachariasX]

Thanks for the info!

 

Looking at the 129 from the outside, it's obvious that its a small aircraft strapped to a couple of engines but seeing how little room there is in the pit really puts it in to perspective.

Small aircraft strapped to very small engines. The Revi in front of the windscreen is a bad joke as well. Certainly an interesting crate...

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Small aircraft strapped to very small engines. The Revi in front of the windscreen is a bad joke as well. Certainly an interesting crate...

Well it had enought room to pickup a buddy if nessecary.

[HagarTheHorrible]

 

 

 

Sorry for the threadromancy - had to share this one!

How the F did you get in, let alone get out in a hurry. F that for a game of soldiers.

[Wulf]

 

The real strengh in the design lies in the armour protection however, which is a unique feauture for a Luftwaffe aircraft. The pilot was situated in a fully armoured "bath tub" while crutial patts of the aircraft like engine cowlings and controll lincages reccieved armour as well.

 

Speed wise it's similar to the Stuka amd noticeably inferiour to the Bf-110, whicj is not important for the task it has to fullfill.

 

 

Yes, the armoured protection was probably reasonably effective against flak splinters and small arms fire but despite all of that, the aircraft couldn't be operated without firstly establishing local air superiority.  In short, if an enemy fighter gets a hold of you, it's over.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

Wasn't this plane originally designed for far more powerful engines? 

[JtD]

Sad but true, the Gnome-Rhone 14M are the more powerful engines. Initially it came with Argus engines (as found for instance on the Fw189), which produced somewhere around 65% the G-R14M power.

Edited May 13, 2017 by JtD

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Wasn't this plane originally designed for far more powerful engines?

No. The demand on the design was to utilize engines that were not already in use for the main types (Db601, BMW801, Jumo 211). Thus the choice for the A series fell on the 450PS Argus engines which proved to be unsufficient. As result the redesigned B model reccieved the more powerfull 760PS Gnome engines from french stocks. The bad thing about this engine was that it lacked direct fuel injection and was prone to fires which lead to the installation of fire extinguishers.

 

Overall it wasn't too bad though. Performemce wise it fits perfectly between the Stuka amd Bf 110 amd excells the IL2 at medium altitude.

Edited May 14, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[ZachariasX]

Well it had enought room to pickup a buddy if nessecary.

hs129b.jpg

These are what is called "close friends".

[ZachariasX]

No. The demand on the design was to utilize engines that were not already in use for the main types (Db601, BMW801, Jumo 211). Thus the choice for the A series fell on the 660PS Argus engines which proved to be unsufficient. As result the redesigned B model reccieved the more powerfull 850PS Gnome engines from french stocks. The bad thing about this engine was that it lacked direct fuel injection and was prone to fires which lead to the installation of fire extinguishers.

Overall it wasn't too bad though. Performemce wise it fits perfectly between the Stuka amd Bf 110 amd excells the IL2 at medium altitude.

Pilots called the A version "ein Monster!", the B variant being something that probably wouldn't get type certification today as you can't really fly it on one engine. The windscreen being steep and close enough to qualify as intransparent in case of precipitation.

 

It's an interesting crate to look forward to!

[Gambit21]

I completely missed out on this aircraft in the old sim somehow.

Looking forward to giving it a try.

[JtD]

No. The demand on the design was to utilize engines that were not already in use for the main types (Db601, BMW801, Jumo 211). Thus the choice for the A series fell on the 660PS Argus engines which proved to be unsufficient. As result the redesigned B model reccieved the more powerfull 850PS Gnome engines from french stocks. The bad thing about this engine was that it lacked direct fuel injection and was prone to fires which lead to the installation of fire extinguishers.

Don't know where you got these figures from, but take off power at sea level was 450PS vs. 700PS. The Argus As410A was nowhere near 660 and the 14M didn't make 850.

[ZachariasX]

Don't know where you got these figures from, but take off power at sea level was 450PS vs. 700PS. The Argus As410A was nowhere near 660 and the 14M didn't make 850.

I'd second that.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I completely missed out on this aircraft in the old sim somehow.

Looking forward to giving it a try.

 

It didn't arrive until 4.09m (if I remember right)... or 4.10m. Anyways it was late in IL-2: 1946s life... so a lot of people missed it.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Don't know where you got these figures from, but take off power at sea level was 450PS vs. 700PS. The Argus As410A was nowhere near 660 and the 14M didn't make 850.

Yea my bad. Came from the top of my head while mobile so thx for noting (will edit it into the above post).

[AndyJWest]

I completely missed out on this aircraft in the old sim somehow.

Looking forward to giving it a try.

 

I've just started up IL-2 '46 for the first time in ages, to see if the Hs 129 cockpit was really as claustrophobic as I remembered. And yes, it is. Makes the Bf 109 seem positively roomy. 

[Feathered_IV]

I think the seat and whatnot could be slid backwards on a pair of rails. Not sure if this was only in the event of a bail out or if it could be done at any time though.

[wtornado]

It was so heavily armored it flew like a brick.

 

Apparently it did not fly far on one motor.

 

Over weight and under powered due to armor

and the payloads.

 

The flight model should be interesting.

[Beazil]

I remember the old 1946 versions being a big challenge. I think I'm bound to flop that monster a few hundred times when we get to play with her.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I actually feel sorry for the folks flying them in online dogfight servers.

 

All your "escort" help is going to be up at 7000 meters, while you are down on the deck being chewed to pieces by, well, every single type the VVS has in game.

 

It will be effective if you can get to your target, but that's going to be a pretty big if.

Edited May 14, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[ShamrockOneFive]

I flew it in those situations in IL-2 1946 and it was alright. You had to pick your route to target carefully and try and bring some friendly fighters for protection if possible.

 

If left alone with the ground targets you could do some serious damage but if you were intercepted... yeah it was a bit rough. Still very very excited to fly the Hs129 again. I really had a lot of fun with it. Its not a great plane or even a good plane but it had its moments and its just so incredibly cool to play around with in the sim.

[JtD]

"Not a great plane or even a good plane" - please name a Sturmovik type WW2 aircraft that was better all around.

 

Not the Il-2, not the Ju87, not the HurricaneIV, not the Ki-45 - what else was there even remotely as capable in ground attack as the Hs129 - and gave better bang for buck?

Edited May 14, 2017 by JtD

[Beazil]

Fw 190?

[JtD]

Compensates for the lack of hitting power against armoured vehicles provided by the 30mm cannon with 80 AP rounds, good aiming provided by the counter rotating and thus torque free engines, the all around armour protection for the pilot, the great view out front over the nose and the redundancy provided by a second engine how?

 

(If one can consider it a Sturmovik type aircraft in the first place, but let's say the later F models qualify.)

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

HS-129 is Absolut favourite Plane since IL-2,  I like the Duck appearance..

But still worried about the Hitting Power it would be worth to buy it, currently its struggle with the Stuka PAK 18 to Pen the T34 Side give not much hope...

 

MK-101 was able to Penetrate the Side Armour of the KV-1

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/463-mk-101-performance/

Edited May 14, 2017 by 9./JG27MAD-MM

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

But still worried about the Hitting Power it would be worth to buy it, currently its struggle with the Stuka PAK 18 to Pen the T34 Side give not much hope...

 

It can penetrate it without trouble. The 37mm round penetrates when firing at the front and even in an 45° horizontally angled approach (the max armor effectiveness of the tank). Or do you mean the amount of hits needed to destroy it?

 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[ShamrockOneFive]

"Not a great plane or even a good plane" - please name a Sturmovik type WW2 aircraft that was better all around.

 

Not the Il-2, not the Ju87, not the HurricaneIV, not the Ki-45 - what else was there even remotely as capable in ground attack as the Hs129 - and gave better bang for buck?

 

Better all around? The definition is vague but I'd say the IL-2 is tops here as a dedicated close air support aircraft. Maybe the Hs129 is a distant second. Though I grant that the Hs129 and its MK101 and MK103 30mm cannons has somewhat greater potential to kill tanks than most 23mm VYa armed IL-2s... that's where it ends. The IL-2 does everything else better.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

How's the Hs 129 armor layout? would be nice to compare against the IL-2

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The IL-2 does everything else better.

 

Hs-129 had better pilot protection and (theroeticly) better operational safety due to the twin layout and fire extinguishers for the engines.

The lack of a tailgunner was probably it's main drawback compared to the IL-2.

[JtD]

The Germans considered adding a tail gunner, but concluded it wasn't worth the extra weight. The Soviets obviously reached a different conclusion for the Il-2, but given that most Hs129 were shot down by AAA, I'm not sure the Germans were wrong.

 

In addition to having the better guns, the higher operational safety of a twin and the better pilot protection, the Hs129 is also smaller, lighter, more manoeuvrable and a more stable gun platform than the Il-2.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Is there some schematic for Hs 129's armor around, something like this for example?

 

 

A good quality of IL-2's design is that the engine, both radiators and fuel tanks are all inside the armored shell, how's the 129 in that regard? Another plus of the IL-2 is that it could carry a bit more bombload and rockets of different types.

 

I would conclude that the Hs 129 was more a dedicated anti tank plane (center mounted very good 30mm), with the IL-2 being a bit more flexible with it's bigger loadout for doing general strike missions or soft target attack. With the IL-2 you can combine loadouts for different jobs, like taking general purpose bombs with the AT cannons, or AT rockets and HE cannon ammo, or AT bomblets with fragmentation rockets and standard cannon loadout, etc. With the Henschel the best loadout options are in the center pylon so you would have to choose to take the general purpose bomb, the AT 30mm cannon, or the cluster bomb (would be nice to have those in the sim). The 129's nose mounted cannons make convoy strafing easier as horizontal convergence affects very little.

 

But overall they are pretty similar.