Flying the Fw 190 A-3 is challenging

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Really? I would say that I have never seen so much complaining about Fw-190 in any other sim.

 

I guess it is just surprising that such a crap plane was praised by German pilots and so respected by Allied pilots. If a plane is constantly mentioned as one of the best fighters of WWII, it creates expectations of it being kind of good.

It had a reputation for Flatspins in War Thunder, in DCS there are pages upon Pages on the D-9, but it also has quite a Snappy High Speed Stall. 

 

It was a contender for "Best Fighter" because of:

Radial Engine

Heavy Armor

High Speed

Better Climb than all western allied fighters

Extreme Firepower

Good Roll Manouverability

500-1800kg of Bombload

Very Stable Landing Gear, suited for even the worst of Runways

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Light Controls

Reliance on many Electrical Systems. 

Did I mention the Cockpit?

And I'm forgetting some. 

 

However, Fact is also that it was a 3.8-4.5 ton Aircraft with a tiny 18.3m2 of Wing, Clipped Tips and no Slats, Short Fuselage, Tiny Rudder, Tiny Elevator.

 

 

Eric Brown, probably the foremost authority on WWII Aircraft, having flown virtually all of them:

(Surprisingly enough this also describes the ingame 190.) 

"The Focke-Wulf had one big advantage over the Spitfire Mk IX in that it possessed an appreciably higher rate of roll, but the Achilles Heel that the AFDU had sought with Armin Faber's Focke-Wulf was its harsh stalling characteristics which limited its manoeuvre margins."

 

"The stalling speed of the Fw 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127 mph (204 km/h) and the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a right turn, it would flick out into the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have its wits about him.

The stall in landing was quite different, there being intense pre-stall buffeting before the starboard wing dropped comparatively gently at 102 mph (164 km/h)."

 

 

Apparently many 190 Pilots don't have their wits about themselves. 

 

 

This Tractor Represents all Fw190 Threads (and that's me riding it):

Edited September 23, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus__Mann

[Urra]

I know this may not be popular belief, but if we had more detailed stall characteristics modelled for all the other aircraft as we do the 190, then people would complain less a bit. Per the vids I've seen its interesting ly close in some situations. The 109 has a nice spin stall that's sometimes difficult to recover from. And didn't the P39 have harsh stall characteristics? Perceptions for the better may change once vr is here, it does connect you a bit more to the airframe.

Can we get back into which tractor is better comparisons now finally?

Edited September 24, 2016 by Smok

[Dr_Molenbeek]

It had a reputation for Flatspins in War Thunder, in DCS there are pages upon Pages on the D-9, but it also has quite a Snappy High Speed Stall. 

 

It was a contender for "Best Fighter" because of:

Radial Engine

Heavy Armor

High Speed

Better Climb than all western allied fighters

Extreme Firepower

Good Roll Manouverability

500-1800kg of Bombload

Very Stable Landing Gear, suited for even the worst of Runways

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Extremely Advanced Cockpit

Light Controls

Reliance on many Electrical Systems. 

Did I mention the Cockpit?

And I'm forgetting some. 

 

However, Fact is also that it was a 3.8-4.5 ton Aircraft with a tiny 18.3m2 of Wing, Clipped Tips and no Slats, Short Fuselage, Tiny Rudder, Tiny Elevator.

 

 

Eric Brown, probably the foremost authority on WWII Aircraft, having flown virtually all of them:

(Surprisingly enough this also describes the ingame 190.) 

"The Focke-Wulf had one big advantage over the Spitfire Mk IX in that it possessed an appreciably higher rate of roll, but the Achilles Heel that the AFDU had sought with Armin Faber's Focke-Wulf was its harsh stalling characteristics which limited its manoeuvre margins."

 

"The stalling speed of the Fw 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127 mph (204 km/h) and the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a right turn, it would flick out into the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have its wits about him.

The stall in landing was quite different, there being intense pre-stall buffeting before the starboard wing dropped comparatively gently at 102 mph (164 km/h)."

 

 

Apparently many 190 Pilots don't have their wits about themselves. 

 

 

This Tractor Represents all Fw190 Threads (and that's me riding it):

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25292-american-fighter-ace-engineer-kit-carson-criticizes-bf109eg/

 

Good read, my dear Wehraboo.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25292-american-fighter-ace-engineer-kit-carson-criticizes-bf109eg/

 

Good read, my dear Wehraboo.

"‘The Bf-109 always brought to my mind the adjective’sinister.’ It has been suggested that it evinced the characteristics of the nation that conceived it, and to me it always looked lethal from any angle, on the ground or in the air; once I had climbed into its claustrophobic cockpit, it felt lethal!’" 

Eric Brown. 

 

‘I didn’t like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so many hours in the snug confines of the [Me-109], everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly…it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit, I’m surprised [American] pilots could find the time to fight.’

Franz Stigler.

 

It's a pointless debate. The American liked the 190 over the 109, because they are all fat and usel... uhm, acustomed to higher comfort standards, while the russians respected the far better flying 109. 

Also, judging all 109s by the Emil, well, I would come to the same conclusion. It's a useless Document, but I wouldn't expect any better from Ameri... uh... "The Good Guys". 

Edited September 23, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus__Mann

[Livai]

Due to the many wildly differing sources out there not to mention the personal experiences and thoughts of those that flew the 190 in testing and combat conditions it won't be any easy task to "produce" the 190 that some folks seem to want.

 

 

My probability calculation says what 190 some folks seem to want

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGtHCJePTQ

[MadisonV44]

Superghostboy, completly unrealistic ... you loose your time

Same registry as he 111 aerobatic demo we had at this time ...  

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I know this may not be popular belief, but if we had more detailed stall characteristics modelled for all the other aircraft as we do the 190, then people would complain less a bit. Per the vids I've seen its interesting ly close in some situations. The 109 has a nice spin stall that's sometimes difficult to recover from. And didn't the p39 have harsh stall characteristics? Perceptions for the better may change once vr is here, it does connect you a bit more to the airframe.

 

Can we get back into which tractor is better comparisons now finally?

Try getting it to the limit at different Speeds and you will feel how advanced the FM really is. At low Speeds you can pull waaay beyond complete stall and it will be stable, at medium speeds it tends to drop a wing, roll over and spin if you don't react quickly. At high Speeds it tends to Snap Roll, and if too much spped is lost snapping around it will Spin. 

 

All of these Situations can be quickly rectified with standard Spin Recovery. 

 

Also: This is best Tractor:

Edited September 23, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus__Mann

[Dr_Molenbeek]

while the russians respected the far better flying 109. 

 

Easy to say when the vast majority of reports come from late war pilots who only have seen JaBo Fw 190s flown by ex-Stuka pilots. It's small from you, small... not surprising though.

 

"FW 190, generalized the experience of its pilots drawn up in January 1943, the report of the intelligence of the 13th air, "prefer to maneuver horizontally - they are more maneuverable and stable in flight than the Messerschmitt."

 

Funny how things change when Fw 190s are not flew by Stuka pilots, no ?

 

Stay in your [Edited] dreams. "Russians respected the 109 lololololz"... maybe because fighter variants of Fw 190s have not exceeded the number of 195 planes, which was the peak btw, in mid-43 ?

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Why doesn't someone message the flying heritage people and see if you can get an actual living pilots opinion.

 

I guess even if we could do that they probably will not have flown to the limits

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just one of the many reports on the 190. A common theme running through many of these reports is a sudden stall with little or no warning and not fantastic manoeuverability on the horizontal plane.

 

Its fast has massive firepower and rolls wonderfully but reading and taking this report at face value it doesn't appear to be the uber plane many think it should be.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Easy to say when the vast majority of reports come from late war pilots who only have seen JaBo Fw 190s flown by ex-Stuka pilots. It's small from you, small... not surprising though.

 

"FW 190, generalized the experience of its pilots drawn up in January 1943, the report of the intelligence of the 13th air, "prefer to maneuver horizontally - they are more maneuverable and stable in flight than the Messerschmitt."

 

Funny how things change when Fw 190s are not flew by Stuka pilots, no ?

 

Stay in your [Edited] dreams. "Russians respected the 109 lololololz"... maybe because fighter variants of Fw 190s have not exceeded the number of 195 planes, which was the peak btw, in mid-43 ?

Oh Bohooo. The 190 was so useless they had to put it on JaBo duty. Now that's some hard and undeserved Judgement from your side. Why would you try and smear the lovely 190 like that? Are you saying that the 190 was only an improved Stuka?

Also, where does it say they achieved anything trying to manouver horizontally? Do they specify what kind of manouver they talk about? It's quite established fact that the 190 was good at keeling over at high rate, no Surprise. 

Those 195 fighter 190s apparently failed to impress. Wonder why?

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[Willy__]

All the reports also mention the superb rate of dive and the zoom climb capabilities, yet in-game it dives not that great (the 109 dives better), and its a fat pig with awful energy retention and not so good zoom climb. Why we dont see the people that are defending the current FM not mentioning that ? Oh the double standards....

 

And I didnt even mention the relative roll rate performance compared to other planes...

Edited September 23, 2016 by JAGER_Staiger

[Danziger]

How do all you [Edited] manage to attract women lol

You guys fight about this stuff like it really matters. It's a game. A time killing hobby. You guys missed out on the real WW2 by quite a few years.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.
 

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The 190 was so useless they had to put it on JaBo duty.

 

Not really.

 

In fact all Fw 190 fighter variants had to return to Western front around the end of 1943, with some exceptions, because they needed their best fighters there, you know. From this date, Fw 190s that were doing JaBo, were JaBo variants (F/G), mostly flown, as i said, by ex-Stuka pilots with no air-combat experience. 

 

 

 

 

Oh, BTW, take a look at my signature, it's about Eastern front, you know. 

 

Oh Bohooo.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Ze_Hairy

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

All the reports also mention the superb rate of dive and the zoom climb capabilities, yet in-game it dives not that great (the 109 dives better), and its a fat pig with awful energy retention and not so good zoom climb. Why we dont see the people that are defending the current FM not mentioning that ? Oh the double standards..

They are so many sources which one do you choose? Most of the reports mention it was better in the vertical than the horizontal. Most mention the wicked without warning stall. The Russian reports seem to favour the 109 over the 190. There are so many differing reports how that its now coming down to individual perspectives.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Got into a fight against a Fw-190 today, 2 Yak-1s vs 1 Fw-190. The bastard was pulling all kinds of manoeuvres, tight turns, barrel rolls, zoom climbs and mad dives. The pilot never stood still, never burned too much energy, and at no point in the fight me or my pair leader ever had a proper shot at him. The fight was only over when, after two minutes of whirling around, he blew his engine without our pair registering a single shot.

Honestly, I was impressed, but above all it goes to show that the aircraft is more than capable when you know its limits. At multiple times I was riding the edge of a stall trying to catch up, and I only ended up behind him because he was distracted by my wingman after landing some hits on me.

 

About the Soviet reports there is little to argue with - they didn't think the Fw-190 was all that jazz, even if they acknowledged that they were capable when not operated by ground-attack pilots. Nobody says the Fw-190 was rubbish, just that the Bf-109 was overall considered a more dangerous foe because it was nimbler and above all it climbed like a bullet while also being faster than most Soviet aircraft. The Fw-190 on the other hand was very fast but didn't really impress in terms of acceleration, and its horizontal manoeuvring was not enough to win the fight alone since the Soviet aircraft were generally very good in the horizontal plan. Soviet pilots had an easier time catching the Fw-190 because they were able to get a shot at them without fluttering around with their nose up cursing at the Messer climbing away from them like a rocket.

 

Bf-109 vs. Fw-190 is exactly like the Yak-3 vs. La-7 debate - pilots would always say their ride was better, 1 vs. 1 never amounted to a clear winner and when employed properly both could flourish.

 

Personally though, I'd always go with the Bf-109, regardless of how any sim models the Fw-190.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Fw 190 can't dogfight, it's a BnZ plane that can't turn.

This just never gets old

 

“The AFDU trials confirmed what the RAF already knew - that the Fw 190 was a truly outstanding combat aircraft. They also produced vitally important information which went some way towards restoring the situation in so far as the RAF was concerned and in eradicating something of the awe in which the Focke-Wulf had come to be held by Allied pilots. It was concluded that the Fw 190 pilot trying to “mix it” with a Spitfire in the classic fashion of steep turning was doomed, for at any speed -even below the German fighter's stalling speed- it would be out-turned by its British opponent . Of course the Luftwaffe was aware of this fact and a somewhat odd style of dogfighting evolved in which the Fw 190 pilots endeavoured to keep on the vertical plane by zooms and dives, while their Spitfire-mounted antagonists tried everything in the book to draw them on to the horizontal. If the German pilot lost his head and failed to resist the temptation to try a horizontal pursuit curve on a Spitfire, as likely as not, before he could recover the speed lost in a steep turn he would find another Spitfire turning inside him! On the other hand, the German pilot who kept zooming up and down was usually the recipient of only difficult deflection shots of more than 30 deg. The Fw 190 had tremendous initial acceleration in a dive but it was extremely vulnerable during a pull-out, recovery having to be quite progressive with care not to kill the speed by 'sinking' ”

 

Extract from Wings of the Luftwaffe by Eric Brown page 85-87

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I know you're just messing this these guys.

However you should read Willy Heilmann's book - "I fought You From the Skies - his squadron did just fine in their 190's against Spitfires, Mustangs, etc.

It's a good read.

Right Now I'm reading into the Japanese Army Airforce. Big Ki-43 fan that I am. 

 

Well, I tried to give useful advice, but my Love wasn't returned. And I'm happy to entertain. 

This just never gets old

 

“The AFDU trials confirmed what the RAF already knew - that the Fw 190 was a truly outstanding combat aircraft. They also produced vitally important information which went some way towards restoring the situation in so far as the RAF was concerned and in eradicating something of the awe in which the Focke-Wulf had come to be held by Allied pilots. It was concluded that the Fw 190 pilot trying to “mix it” with a Spitfire in the classic fashion of steep turning was doomed, for at any speed -even below the German fighter's stalling speed- it would be out-turned by its British opponent . Of course the Luftwaffe was aware of this fact and a somewhat odd style of dogfighting evolved in which the Fw 190 pilots endeavoured to keep on the vertical plane by zooms and dives, while their Spitfire-mounted antagonists tried everything in the book to draw them on to the horizontal. If the German pilot lost his head and failed to resist the temptation to try a horizontal pursuit curve on a Spitfire, as likely as not, before he could recover the speed lost in a steep turn he would find another Spitfire turning inside him! On the other hand, the German pilot who kept zooming up and down was usually the recipient of only difficult deflection shots of more than 30 deg. The Fw 190 had tremendous initial acceleration in a dive but it was extremely vulnerable during a pull-out, recovery having to be quite progressive with care not to kill the speed by 'sinking' ”

 

Extract from Wings of the Luftwaffe by Eric Brown page 85-87

 

Eric Brown? What a nobody. Wouldn't trust a word that lyin snitch be tellin.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Got into a fight against a Fw-190 today, 2 Yak-1s vs 1 Fw-190. The bastard was pulling all kinds of manoeuvres, tight turns, barrel rolls, zoom climbs and mad dives. The pilot never stood still, never burned too much energy, and at no point in the fight me or my pair leader ever had a proper shot at him. The fight was only over when, after two minutes of whirling around, he blew his engine without our pair registering a single shot.

Honestly, I was impressed, but above all it goes to show that the aircraft is more than capable when you know its limits. At multiple times I was riding the edge of a stall trying to catch up, and I only ended up behind him because he was distracted by my wingman after landing some hits on me.

 

About the Soviet reports there is little to argue with - they didn't think the Fw-190 was all that jazz, even if they acknowledged that they were capable when not operated by ground-attack pilots. Nobody says the Fw-190 was rubbish, just that the Bf-109 was overall considered a more dangerous foe because it was nimbler and above all it climbed like a bullet while also being faster than most Soviet aircraft. The Fw-190 on the other hand was very fast but didn't really impress in terms of acceleration, and its horizontal manoeuvring was not enough to win the fight alone since the Soviet aircraft were generally very good in the horizontal plan. Soviet pilots had an easier time catching the Fw-190 because they were able to get a shot at them without fluttering around with their nose up cursing at the Messer climbing away from them like a rocket.

 

Bf-109 vs. Fw-190 is exactly like the Yak-3 vs. La-7 debate - pilots would always say their ride was better, 1 vs. 1 never amounted to a clear winner and when employed properly both could flourish.

 

Personally though, I'd always go with the Bf-109, regardless of how any sim models the Fw-190.

 

c bi1

 

This just never gets old

 

“The AFDU trials confirmed what the RAF already knew - that the Fw 190 was a truly outstanding combat aircraft. They also produced vitally important information which went some way towards restoring the situation in so far as the RAF was concerned and in eradicating something of the awe in which the Focke-Wulf had come to be held by Allied pilots. It was concluded that the Fw 190 pilot trying to “mix it” with a Spitfire in the classic fashion of steep turning was doomed, for at any speed -even below the German fighter's stalling speed- it would be out-turned by its British opponent . Of course the Luftwaffe was aware of this fact and a somewhat odd style of dogfighting evolved in which the Fw 190 pilots endeavoured to keep on the vertical plane by zooms and dives, while their Spitfire-mounted antagonists tried everything in the book to draw them on to the horizontal. If the German pilot lost his head and failed to resist the temptation to try a horizontal pursuit curve on a Spitfire, as likely as not, before he could recover the speed lost in a steep turn he would find another Spitfire turning inside him! On the other hand, the German pilot who kept zooming up and down was usually the recipient of only difficult deflection shots of more than 30 deg. The Fw 190 had tremendous initial acceleration in a dive but it was extremely vulnerable during a pull-out, recovery having to be quite progressive with care not to kill the speed by 'sinking' ”

 

Extract from Wings of the Luftwaffe by Eric Brown page 85-87

 

 

Did it ever crossed your mind, that Fw 190 tactics, during the war, on the West, changed with time, because the plane became heavy and not as good (at dogfighting) against Spitfires than what it was when it came ? E-V-E-R..?

 

And wow, magie magie ! It looks totally legit that Fw 190 pilots, in 44-45, preferred to stick to hit & run tactics when possible, and dive away when in trouble ?

 

Does it has anything to do with our BoS case, a 1942 light Fw 190A-3, which has perfect dogfighting capabilities (not for you i understood since a long time, you don't know what dogfighting is anyway, you said it yourself).

 

You can do better. Maybe next time.

 

EDIT: Tactics changes not only because of the plane capabilities, but also because of pilot's experiences... You know my dear, Fw 190 pilots in 44-45, were not the same as those who fought during 42-43.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[Gambit21]

Right Now I'm reading into the Japanese Army Airforce. Big Ki-43 fan that I am. 

 

Saw one fly recently - stirs the blood it does.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Really? I would say that I have never seen so much complaining about Fw-190 in any other sim.

 

 

You must have missed the literally hundreds of pages of complaints about the FW190s stall in IL-2: Forgotten Battles when that game came out. I got sucked into them at the time... I'm attempting to be wiser now.

 

But it was definitely an issue. It was difficult to make a turn in the FW190, particularly the A-8 and A-9 in IL-2: Forgotten Battles without instantly stalling and spinning. The behavior was changed a half dozen times over the course of the series history.

 

Right or wrong as the current setup may be... I've seen so much more complaining. So much more. This is a pale comparison

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

Does it has anything to do with our BoS case, a 1942 light Fw 190A-3, which has perfect dogfighting capabilities (not for you i understood since a long time, you don't know what dogfighting is anyway, you said it yourself).

 

You can do better. Maybe next time.

 

Looooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

3.9 tons, 210kg/m2, no Slats or any high lift devices, Average Power to weight Ratio, and you call that "Perfect Dogfighter"? Delusional much?

Edited September 23, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus__Mann

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Looooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

3.9 tons, 210kg/m2, no Slats or any high lift devices, Average Power to weight Ratio, and you call that "Perfect Dogfighter"? Delusional much?

 

Please tell me you're joking.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Please tell me you're joking.

What do you think [Edited]?

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin
Not needed

[Turban]

All the reports also mention the superb rate of dive and the zoom climb capabilities, yet in-game it dives not that great (the 109 dives better), and its a fat pig with awful energy retention and not so good zoom climb. Why we dont see the people that are defending the current FM not mentioning that ? Oh the double standards....

 

And I didnt even mention the relative roll rate performance compared to other planes...

 

It has been mentionned, even in this thread.

 

Problem is, people just won't stop talking about the stall....

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

I read that our 190 is actually overperforming together with flaps. It should be heavier

[Wulf]

God preserve me from self-loathing Germans.    Bloody-hell.

 

The 190 A-3 was about as good as as the Merlin 61 powered Spitfire Mk IX .  Well that's what the ADU tell  us.  They tested both aircraft, against each other, and that was their considered opinion.

 

Strangely, when we fly the 190 in-game, we find it struggles in a one on one contest with a LaGG 3 and is out-classed by a Yak 1.  The obvious conclusion that must be drawn is that a Yak 1 must also, therefore, out-class a Spitfire IX.  Wow...okay.

 

Frankly, if it's true and the 190 isn't to be fixed, and if this is how history is to be represented in this so-called sim I want no part in it.  As far as I'm concerned they can shove 'BOK' sideways.  I won't be buying it.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Wulf

[sinned]

Back to other sims....anyone interested in my BoS?

I am very interested in your BOS!

 

I already have BOS but I would like a second copy so that I could give it out to my friend!

 

Pls PM me!

[ShamrockOneFive]

Getting drawn in... I did a little googling and someone had posted an excerpt from test pilot Eric Brown on his thoughts on the FW190.

 

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/192120-What-Cptn-Eric-Brown-(really)-wrote-about-the-Fw-190A-Forums

 

Two passages stood out to me.

 

"The Focke-Wulf had one big advantage over the Spitfire Mk IX in that it possessed an appreciably higher rate of roll, but the Achilles Heel that the AFDU had sought with Armin Faber's Focke-Wulf was its harsh stalling characteristics which limited its manoeuvre margins."

 

"The stalling speed of the Fw 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127 mph (204 km/h) and the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a right turn, it would flick out into the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have its wits about him."

 

That all does sound rather familiar on a qualitative level.

 

The rest of the comments are fascinating. He seems rather enamoured with the aircraft which leads me to believe that a lot of the positive reputation from its pilots go beyond some of the things that we can simulate. I'm not sure how control harmony fully translates to the multitude of joysticks we all have for example. He considers the aircraft rather stable and that it doesn't require a lot of trim inputs.

 

Rather than the issues of stall. I'd be more interested to see if we can get dive acceleration numbers and compare that to ours. Just straight and level acceleration numbers too.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Did it ever crossed your mind, that Fw 190 tactics, during the war, on the West, changed with time, because the plane became heavy and not as good (at dogfighting) against Spitfires than what it was when it came ? E-V-E-R..?

Did it ever cross you mind that the aircraft that was tested and being referred to was an A-4 Introduced in July 1942, which was equipped with the same engine and basic armament as the A-3.

 

Does it has anything to do with our BoS case, a 1942 light Fw 190A-3, which has perfect dogfighting capabilities (not for you i understood since a long time, you don't know what dogfighting is anyway, you said it yourself).

 

You are using an ad hominem argument when the evidence presented to you doesn't concur with your "expert" knowledge of the 190. Even though the evidence clearly shows that the aircraft on the horizontal plane wasn't as effective as you think it is. I would suggest that you put down the Osprey books and get off Wikipedia and start reading through the hundreds of reports out there from the pilots that flew and tested these aircraft 

 

 

You can do better. Maybe next time.

 

You do realise that you are telling Eric Brown he could do better and not me as the report you are criticising is his and not mine? Maybe after you have flown and tested a real 190 then perhaps you can do better...maybe next time?

 

The rest of the comments are fascinating. He seems rather enamoured with the aircraft which leads me to believe that a lot of the positive reputation from its pilots go beyond some of the things that we can simulate. I'm not sure how control harmony fully translates to the multitude of joysticks we all have for example. He considers the aircraft rather stable and that it doesn't require a lot of trim inputs.

The aircraft was easy to fly and far less of a physical endeavour to fly than say the 109 and as you point out something that is not easy to simulate. In the real world this would be of great advantage.

Edited September 24, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[MadisonV44]

How do all you [Edited] manage to attract women lol

 

You guys fight about this stuff like it really matters. It's a game. A time killing hobby. You guys missed out on the real WW2 by quite a few years.

 

you are wrong M8

Lot of people project their passion for warbirds in the sim (unless they would be play WT)

Of course we have fun, of course it's a game ... but not only

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[303_Kwiatek]

Well before finess ratio change A3 got also nasty stall characteristic and stall could came suddendly exacly like it was describe in raports but you could at least do some evansie manouvers when need. Nobody want to sustain turn fight with less weight fighters. But A3 got also acceleration adventage. So it was needed only fix still underated climb rate. Now it looks like devs pushed by rl data and community improve little climb rate but the same time cut something like acceleration and fighting ability. Result? Even worse then before update.
Other hand i remember lagg3 stall characteritic. In begining developers so entushially show video how bad stall and spin characteristic it would have in BOS according to rl test. After some time it was silency changed in game and now lagg3 is more easier. Well these is how looks these balanced game.

 

17. Spreading false or harmful information about the product is prohibited and will be deleted by forum administration. Claiming ignorance of the subject to justify harmful or obviously untrue info will not be tolerated.

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[F/JG300_Gruber]

The 190 A-3 was about as good as as the Merlin 61 powered Spitfire Mk IX .  Well that's what the ADU tell  us.  They tested both aircraft, against each other, and that was their considered opinion.

I don't know if we are talking about the same report, but from what I remember about the spit Mk IX and the 190 the report was focused about maximum level speed, climb rate and dive capabilities. There wasn't any numbers about turn time/radius, roll rate, stall based maneuvers and other things that might be relevant in the turning dogfight situation people are talking about here.

 

Strangely, when we fly the 190 in-game, we find it struggles in a one on one contest with a LaGG 3 and is out-classed by a Yak 1.  The obvious conclusion that must be drawn is that a Yak 1 must also, therefore, out-class a Spitfire IX.  Wow...okay.

One thing that people have to consider, is that ALL russian pilots in BoS make an intensive use of flaps in any situations. For the good and the worst sometimes.

I've spent a bit of time last week with a few russian planes, and the extra lift provided by them is just dubious to say the least.

The stability and turning time and radius one can achieve is quite impressive and it transforms even the La5 in a wonder machine.

 

That the thing that struck me after hundreds of hours flying the german planes, even at the point of 2.003, russian flaps (except maybe on the mig)

just generates a lot of lift and not that much drag. And it's definitely not a one time only trick some are trying to make us believe.

 

I don't remember who posted somewhere here an interview of an old VVS pilot, but when talking about flaps his answer was that he never heard about anybody using them in combat.

It just spoiled the speed super fast.

 

So before one starts to say that the 190 is a dog and can't compete with russian planes, I would like to see a series of duels from different pilots, with the russian NOT TOUCHING THEIR FLAPS AT ANY TIME.

Results will be closer to what happened in the sky in real life, and we might even get some surprises...

Edited September 24, 2016 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Wulf]

I don't know if we are talking about the same report, but from what I remember about the spit Mk IX and the 190 the report was focused about maximum level speed, climb rate and dive capabilities. There wasn't any numbers about turn time/radius, roll rate, stall based maneuvers and other things that might be relevant in the turning dogfight situation people are talking about here.

 

 

One thing that people have to consider, is that ALL russian pilots in BoS make an intensive use of flaps in any situations. For the good and the worst sometimes.

I've spent a bit of time last week with a few russian planes, and the extra lift provided by them is just dubious to say the least.

The stability and turning time and radius one can achieve is quite impressive and it transforms even the La5 in a wonder machine.

 

That the thing that struck me after hundreds of hours flying the german planes, even at the point of 2.003, russian flaps (except maybe on the mig)

just generates a lot of lift and not that much drag. And it's definitely not a one time only trick some are trying to make us believe.

 

I don't remember who posted somewhere here an interview of an old VVS pilot, but when talking about flaps his answer was that he never heard about anybody using them in combat.

It just spoiled the speed super fast.

 

So before one starts to say that the 190 is a dog and can't compete with russian planes, I would like to see a series of duels from different pilots, with the russian NOT TOUCHING THEIR FLAPS AT ANY TIME.

Results will be closer to what happened in the sky in real life, and we might even get some surprises...

 

No one who knows anything at all about the 190 would expect it to do well in a sustained turn-fight with Soviet or British fighters, circa 41-42.  We don't expect it and we don't want it. 

 

What we do want is an aircraft that is capable of sufficient 'instantaneous turn' that it can actually engage enemy aircraft with vertical maneuvers without inducing a stall.   At present that's all but impossible. 

 

Any halfwit in an IL-2 can easily wrong-foot someone in a 190 as matters currently stand.  The thing has been rendered all but useless.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

What do you think Honey?

 

Ok stop now, you're not funny.

 

When someone post arguments, while the other clown answers with xxxx and tries to be funny (only in his head), the last guy of the two is called a troll.

 

Go away, cancer Wehraboo.

 

Did it ever cross you mind that the aircraft that was tested and being referred to was an A-4 Introduced in July 1942, which was equipped with the same engine and basic armament as the A-3.

 

You are using an ad hominem argument when the evidence presented to you doesn't concur with your "expert" knowledge of the 190. Even though the evidence clearly shows that the aircraft on the horizontal plane wasn't as effective as you think it is. I would suggest that you put down the Osprey books and get off Wikipedia and start reading through the hundreds of reports out there from the pilots that flew and tested these aircraft 

 

You do realise that you are telling Eric Brown he could do better and not me as the report you are criticising is his and not mine? Maybe after you have flown and tested a real 190 then perhaps you can do better...maybe next time?

 

The aircraft was easy to fly and far less of a physical endeavour to fly than say the 109 and as you point out something that is not easy to simulate. In the real world this would be of great advantage.

 

"My first opportunity to fly the Focke-Wulf did not arise until 4 February 1944, the actual aircraft being the previously-mentioned Fw 190A-4/U8 PE882." -Eric Brown

 

Well known that Brown was fighting Fw 190s in 1942. No, in fact you're just copy/pasting his words, without understanding 1% of the contexte, "look look Brown said the plane stalled harshly !! the FM is fine !!!! xdd".

 

Oh, since you're talking about "horizontal plane", let me tell you that you don't even know what it means. No one doubt that in your minds, this term only means "turnfight lolilolz". You showed several times on the forum, you and generally, guys from 6./ZG26, that you have 0 experience in air-combat, none. "BnZ & Turnfight lol", that's all you know. Don't force me to quote your posts from this famous thread that dates from 1 year ago, or i'll die from laughing.

 

Talking about Osprey books when the only thing you did was to write "FW 190 STALL HARSH LOL" on Google and copy/paste here everything you find, with only purpose to defend the current FM ?

 

Always this famous "argument" from people like you who know nothing. "fw 190 was better than 109 because lighter controls Xdd" --> Just stop talking about things you don't know, return to 9000m, keep BnZ Yaks, and stop ridiculing yourself here.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The thread thus far...

 

person 1: *sourced detailed information, argument supporting the current FM*

person 2: ha, don't make me laugh you fool, I am a lvl 99 Fw-190 paladin! you know nothing. here is my own information which I carefully selected and edited to fit my world view.

person 1: *more well-sourced information*

person 2: *snarky remark, personal insult, opinionated superlative comment on aircraft's capabilities, repeats the same information they posted before ad eternum*

 

Shouldn't this junk be in the FM section by now?

[coconut]

There is some interesting data in all these FW190 discussions, but filtering away the personal attacks and upset feelings gets tiresome quickly. It seems to me the plane we got in the game conforms to some of the anecdotes and data, but all anecdotes and test flight do not seem to agree with eachother. Most of the data in favour of the agile 190 is from other fronts and people who did not fight on the eastern front, right? Then why should the devs choose to follow those accounts, instead of the accounts the devs have that apply directly to the 190 in the eastern front?

 

What about ClOD? Does it have a 190 modelled after the BOB accounts and results of British test flights? How does it perform there?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Oh, since you're talking about "horizontal plane", let me tell you that you don't even know what it means. No one doubt that in your minds, this term only means "turnfight lolilolz". You showed several times on the forum, you and generally, guys from 6./ZG26, that you have 0 experience in air-combat, none. "BnZ & Turnfight lol", that's all you know. Don't force me to quote your posts from this famous thread that dates from 1 year ago, or i'll die from laughing. Talking about Osprey books when the only thing you did was to write "FW 190 STALL HARSH LOL" on Google and copy/paste here everything you find, with only purpose to defend the current FM ? Always this famous "argument" from people like you who know nothing. "fw 190 was better than 109 because lighter controls Xdd" --> Just stop talking about things you don't know, return to 9000m, keep BnZ Yaks, and stop ridiculing yourself here.

 

Just nothing but personal insults are you 12 or something? 

 

You think you are an "expert" and you are nothing of the sort. You are attacking me personally because I have posted reports that don't agree with your view of how it should be. Perhaps if you took the time to read some of these reports instead of just throwing insults about Because you think you are right you may learn something. I really don't know why I waste my time on someone who clearly is in love with his own ego and is not a supporter of this sim.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited September 25, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[303_Kwiatek]

There is no Fw190 in Clod yet. Only comparable is DCS and old il2. I think DCS is more fair modeled even if it is D9 version still it behave like Fw 190 it has good acceleration slighty slowier roll but better climb rate then A version. Regarding stall characteristic it has also nasty stall but at least you are able to dogfight with it - good instenous turn good roll and zoom ability give it its historical adventages. You couldnt outurn P51 but you could fight with it and outmanevuer it if you use adventages which i mention. Also view from cocpit is much better then in BOS. DCS Fw190 comparing stricte flight characteristic and dogfight ability as a fighter plane and BOS one is way different story. And wing polar both planes got the same. For me DCS plane is much more beliveable then BOS one. Its clearly for me that since begining A3 in BOS show not good reputation in developers minds about these plane and we will see it in next projects also. Im dissaponitment that i buy A3 in BOS and looking developers tendency i will not buy another crap imitation of these series aircraft.

Edited September 24, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[JG5_Zesphr]

Ok, just to break from the little argument, I've got some extracts from a book I'm reading at the moment- Focke wulf in combat by Alfred price- in it he has a section where there is a report of a captured A-3 by the British. I've got some rather low quality but readable extract about the tests here: http://imgur.com/a/WyVat

It's against the Mk. V an IX spits with a bit against a griffin spit (there are also the mustang 1A and P-38 in the book).

 

The basic overview is that it's light on the controls and only falls short in sustained turn and clm at high alt vs the IX. There is no  statement  about it being twichy or prone to stalls at any speed. In fact on page 55 it notes, "The flying characteristics are exceptional and a pilot new to the type feels at home with in the first few minutes of flight. The controls are light and well-harmonised and all manoeuvres can be carried out with out no difficulty at all speeds" 

 

Personally I do fell the 190 is off in BoS in regards to the stalling of the plane. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Zesphr