Flying the Fw 190 A-3 is challenging

[BazzaLB]

Last radio message from pilot ...

 

"the F...k..ng FM is all wrong"

 

[Haza]

Last radio message from pilot ...

 

"the F...k..ng FM is all wrong"

 

 

Well at least this pilot made it out!!

The one below didn't, as he was half the man he was before the flight!!

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

"Most people claiming the FW is wrong don't have much flight experience to show, and can't seem to fly anything properly anyway."

 

This statement is quite the unsubstantiated over generalization even for you. I'm pretty handy with her and there is at least one pilot here whom I know would hand me my hat in a dogfight. You can't demand facts and substance on one hand and throw around such drivel on the other.

Edited September 18, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[ACG_pezman]

[...]

 

Got a video? I'd be interested in seeing it. Also the aftermath where you found yourself low and with 2 VVS aircraft nearby. Because unless they just ran away or unless you're a much much better pilot than I, you'd be a quick kill for a Yak/La pair working together.

 

First off, no video.  Sorry, I wish I had it too because it is exactly what I am talking about.

 

Secondly, it's berloga.  I am sure I got shot down sometime after that because I was low, but it's also berloga.  The aircraft that did get me though wasn't one of the two that I forced to overshoot, it was the one I had been engaging when I got bounced at the top of my zoom.  Forgot all about him.  Well, the tortoise did beat the hare.

 

At some point though we as pilots need to take some responsibility for our outcomes.  We fight completely wrong half the time, alone and with no support.  Some people know they are too aggressive but simply think that because they have the altitude they will win because it's an advantage.  Truth is unless you come screaming in from the heavens above at 750-800kph onto your target, a LaGG or Yak with decent energy can zoom climb for a bit.  It's not as far as a 109 or 190 because of their better design and more powerful engines, but close enough to attempt a 500-700m shot or longer.  While usually not fatal (unless 23mm ) it will cause drag, damage systems, and sometimes cause a pilot to make mistakes. 

 

Why are the Axis aircraft so much more superior?  Because of the fact that they can escape.  That's it.  Be it running away at full speed or climbing, both are just escaping.  So why is everyone so mad that the 190, an aircraft perfectly capable of escaping from all aircraft on the VVS, gets killed when the pilot makes the conscious decision to not escape and instead push it's aircraft into precarious positions?

Edited September 18, 2016 by 19.GIAP//p3zman

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I've flown with and against Pez. He's a quality pilot.

[JtD]

So why is everyone so mad that the 190, an aircraft perfectly capable of escaping from all aircraft on the VVS, gets killed when the pilot makes the conscious decision to not escape and instead push it's aircraft into precarious positions?

Maybe some folks want to use a fighter for fighting occasionally, not just escaping.

[Stig]

Maybe some folks want to use a fighter for fighting occasionally, not just escaping.

 

Well, some folks are maintaining that they can fight with the Fw 190.

[Wulf]

Well, some folks are maintaining that they can fight with the Fw 190.

 

 

Yup, and we're still waiting on the video (Wulf nervously checks his watch for maybe the 100th time   ) .  

 

Can't wait to see how you convert a co-energy state in a 190 into a winning situation.  C'mon guys, this is really exciting.   Hit us with the vid!

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 

[coconut]

Yup, and we're still waiting on the video (Wulf nervously checks his watch for maybe the 100th time   ) .  

 

Can't wait to see how you convert a co-energy state in a 190 into a winning situation.  C'mon guys, this is really exciting.   Hit us with the vid!

 

Force a head on, dive to 600+kph, climb at 400+kph. If the yak pilot tries to catch up he'll lose his energy. If he climbs at his optimal rate he'll gain energy, but you get separation. See e.g.

Yes it's old, but the FW190 climbs a bit better now, right? I also have some fresh gameplay from this morning if you really want me to spend the time to record it and encode it. Same tactics, but against a Yak1.

[Wulf]

If the video wasn't recorded after  the 'fineness-ratio' patch it's completely and utterly irrelevant.  I'm not even bothered watching it if that's the case.  Given your comment about 'climb' I assume I'm right about that..  Let me know if I'm wrong.

 

The issue here isn't how you use the 'pre-patch 190'.  We all know how to do that.  The question is how you use a post patch 190 in a co-energy state.

 

Secondly, I'm frankly 'disinclined' to take advice from people who suggest that it's a good idea to place my aircraft in front of the weapons of an enemy.  And yes, I appreciate that the 190 has more firepower than most but going head-on is about as desperate as it gets.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Wulf

[coconut]

The head on is not to shoot at your enemy, but to get him to bleed his energy when he turns while you go on straight. Regarding the age of the video, yes, I said it's old. You'll get a more recent video later today, then. The fineness change affected the stall mechanism as I understand it, which definitely is a problem in tight dog fights, not so much if there is enough distance between you and your enemy.

Edited September 18, 2016 by coconut

[JG13_opcode]

The head on is not to shoot at your enemy, but to get him to bleed his energy when he turns while you go on straight. Regarding the age of the video, yes, I said it's old. You'll get a more recent video later today, then. The fineness change affected the stall mechanism as I understand it, which definitely is a problem in tight dog fights, not so much if there is enough distance between you and your enemy.

There's some disagreement about whether or not the fineness ratio is actually what they changed. Apparently "fineness ratio" is what you get if you Google-translate the Russian for L:D ratio.

[Dr_Molem]

Do you have references that indicate what would be the aircraft's performances in a figure like this?

 

They are close. How do you say that's wrong ?

 

When you read somewhere a FW outdives a Spit.. First how does a Lagg compares to a Spit. And what kind of dive was it? 

 

It looks close, it feels close, in the game,  doesn't necessarly mean it's wrong.

 

I'm dreaming or you're saying that FW-190A-3 and LaGG-3 have the same dive performance and that this is "normal" ??

[Wulf]

The head on is not to shoot at your enemy, but to get him to bleed his energy when he turns while you go on straight. Regarding the age of the video, yes, I said it's old. You'll get a more recent video later today, then. The fineness change affected the stall mechanism as I understand it, which definitely is a problem in tight dog fights, not so much if there is enough distance between you and your enemy.

 

 

Well it's not so much "a problem" is it.  It's more like the frinking kiss of death.  You're co-energy and you enter a merge.  If you attempt to turn after the merge you'll be killed before you can even get into position for a lousy 50/50 head-on.  Keep going straight or climb and you'll find the e/a has turned so quickly on your tail that you'll never get enough separation to initiate an attack.  That's the reality of the post patch 190.  Flying the thing is like walking across a room filled with broken glass, in bare feet.   Sure, it can be done if you're really, really careful  but you better not make any sudden moves.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Wulf

[MadisonV44]

I personally have no problem with the pre-patch 190. It was not an easy plane to handle, stall characteristics were there, she was also loosing a lot of energy (maybe too much) BUT the plane was almost in line with all the stories and material that have been brought to the debate. As a recap, the pre-patch was maybe the less easy to handle from the planeset but she was a beast if you take time to master and everybody was happy with.

 

The point is that those initial characteristics seems being exaggerated in the post-patch 190. 

 

As a result I think that everybody reach a consensus here, because we all know the characteristics, we all agree on them and the only difference dividing us is the level of implementation of those FW distinctive signature. For us the cursor as been push too far, for our detractors it's close to was it should be. In this context, any comment of people who did not flown intensively the pre-patch version AND the post-patch model should be handle with extreme care (and I'm not speaking about pilot never nerver flying, or occasionally) ! 

 

Last but not least, the skills Turban is so proud to put on the top of the debate is off topic (I will always remember the mythic collector sentence :"Most people claiming the FW is wrong don't have much flight experience to show, and can't seem to fly anything properly anyway.")

 

Some of us who flown intensively the beast were pretty good and dexterous at it, a lot of pilot in fact ... this is not rocket science if you fly regularly. Personally I was far from being the best FW pilot of our squadron but I was able to handle it correctly (flying with people mastering the Wulf like PetiO, Iceheart, LaBomba and 64sTomio) Those pilots and myself could easily handle the post-patch 190 .. .of course we can, like Turban or others ... as said by Wulf in the previous post you "can use to control it being very careful", but facing exaggerated characteristic pushed us to brake and hold on a bit (or retire for some month for some others like me, flying the occasionally the 109). 

 

As a summary the point is that we are speaking of the good FW characteristic but their signature is far overdone. 

 

[Stig]

 

I personally have no problem with the pre-patch 190. It was not an easy plane to handle, stall characteristics were there, she was also loosing a lot of energy (maybe too much) BUT the plane was almost in line with all the stories and material that have been brought to the debate. As a recap, the pre-patch was maybe the less easy to handle from the planeset but she was a beast if you take time to master and everybody was happy with.

 

 

 

'

 

If I remember correctly Wulf was very enthused with the old Fw 190 FM, until he met Manfred, 

[coconut]

Well it's not so much "a problem" is it.  It's more like to the frinking kiss of death.  You're co-energy and you enter a merge.  If you attempt to turn after the merge you'll do be killed before you can even get into position for a lousy 50/50 head-on.  Keep going straight or climb and you'll find the e/a has turned so quickly on your tail that you'll never get enough separation to initiate an attack.  That's the reality of the post patch 190.  Flying the thing is like walking across a room filled with broken glass, in bare feet.   Sure, it can be done if you're really, really careful  but you better not make any sudden moves.

 

But why turn after the merge? People online often fall for the lead turn maneuver, so it's worth trying. One has to be willing to disengage if that does not immediately work, though.

 

Anyway, here is the video:

 

The above mentioned lead turn maneuver almost worked, but not quite. That yak was not much of a threat however, having started with a lower energy. The problem was the other, higher yak. A bit of careful wiggling at high speed, extending and shallow climb left him behind.

I was flying with the extra guns in the wings, by the way, so even less maneuverable and slower than normal. Still made it, and it's not the only time it happened.

 

I can see how you'll counter me "but fleeing is not fighting", and I can't really disagree with that. But in a MP setting that isn't 1v1, trailing behind a plane faster than you is not very good, and turning around just invites your enemy back into the fight. What's a Russian pilot to do to counter that?

 

Looking at the second half of the video, from the yak's perspective shows how fast the FW190 can get out of trouble. Chasing fast-flying fighters is a frustrating experience all Russian pilots have to deal with, and I'm not sure people flying mostly German planes realize that when they ask for faster planes and more acceleration.

[Turban]

I'm dreaming or you're saying that FW-190A-3 and LaGG-3 have the same dive performance and that this is "normal" ??

 

I'm not saying it's normal, and honestly I expected something different, but I also honestly can't say if I'm doing something wrong, or even then what to judge the results on ? I don't think there is actual data on dive performance, zoom climb performance etc.

 

Maybe the Lagg was a great diver and zoom climber after all.  Also that feels a bit too far fetched to say 

[Wulf]

If I remember correctly Wulf was very enthused with the old Fw 190 FM, until he met Manfred, 

 

 

Not so.  My fight with Manfred took place well before the introduction of the penultimate 190 patch which most of us who actually flew the thing thought was a pretty good effort..  What's more, I foolishly agreed to that fight after what must have been a two month absence from online play.  Huge mistake.  The result was I took a serious kicking from Manfred in a Yak; in part  because I was rusty as fark, secondly, because I hadn't realized the 190's FM had indeed changed since my last online play and of course finally cos Manfred is a very good pilot.

 

But gee wizz, that must be going back 18 months or more.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Wulf

[Lusekofte]

Man, I am looking forward to the day we get 2 FW 190 in this game....

[Dr_Molem]

I'm not saying it's normal, and honestly I expected something different, but I also honestly can't say if I'm doing something wrong, or even then what to judge the results on ? I don't think there is actual data on dive performance, zoom climb performance etc.

 

Maybe the Lagg was a great diver and zoom climber after all.  Also that feels a bit too far fetched to say 

 

Do not thank me...

 

С Ла-5 у «фоккеров» было примерное равенство: до высоты 2000 м скороподъемность этих машин была примерно одинакова; от 2000 до 3000 м некоторое превосходство теоретически имел Ла-5, а выше 3000 м – FW190А-4 и А-5. В общем, в зоне основных воздушных боев «фокке-вульфы» в 1943 г. уступали по скороподъемности только Ла-5ФН, которые, напомним, на фронте появились лишь в июле.

 

Для читателя, привыкшего к традиционному для отечественной литературы противопоставлению «тяжелых и неуклюжих» «фоккеров» «легким и маневренным» советским истребителям, подобный вывод звучит весьма неожиданно. Но не будем забывать, что представлением о посредственной скороподъемности FW190 наша литература в значительной степени обязана результатам испытаний первых трофейных машин этого типа – а машины эти были не новыми и исправными, а изношенными и дефектными!

 

Правда, по мнению советских штабистов, выпустивших в 1943 г. работу «Тактика истребительной авиации», недостаточную скороподъемность «фоккеров» выявила и боевая практика. «За все бои, – указывалось в этой работе, – не наблюдалось, чтобы ФВ-190 при равной высоте с нашими истребителями делал попытки уйти вверх. Это подтверждает его меньшую скороподъемность по сравнению с нашими истребителями […]»348. Однако немецкие летчики прямо отрицают справедливость подобного заключения! Так, ветеран Восточного фронта Ф. Крайтель, летавший на FW190 в составе штурмовой авиации, свидетельствует, что «FW190 отлично брал вертикаль, и одной из возможностей уйти от преследующего противника было резко взять на себя штурвал и сделать свечу»349. Речь шла о штурмовых модификациях «сто девяностого», но так же должны были вести себя и истребительные: ведь при том же двигателе они весили не больше штурмовых (вес двух дополнительных пушек и их боекомплекта – порядка 150 кг – на истребителях компенсировался меньшим примерно на 200 кг весом брони350). Это подтверждают и результаты испытаний трофейного FW190А-3, проведенных в июле 1942 г. американцами. «Было обнаружено, что, когда «мустанг» атакует Fw190, последний может уйти резким набором высоты […] Набор высоты из горизонтального полета очень хорош при большом угле подъема»351. Да и в советских источниках со временем стали фиксироваться случаи выхода «фоккеров» из боя вверх. Согласно, например, документам 900-го истребительного авиаполка 240-й истребительной авиадивизии (чьи Як-9 и Як-9Т осенью 1943-го действовали в составе 3-й воздушной армии Калининского фронта, а с лета 1944-го – в составе 1-й воздушной армии 3-го Белорусского фронта), подобным образом FW190 вели себя в боях 10 октября 1943 г. в районе Невеля, 19 и 23 августа 1944 г. – в районе Вилкавишкиса (Литва), 1 сентября 1944 г. – в районе Шакяя (Литва), 17 февраля 1945 г. – в районе Мельзака (Восточная Пруссия)352… «Свечой» пошел вверх и «фока», атакованный в июле 1944-го над бухтой Гаково на Ла-5 командиром 4-го гвардейского истребительного авиаполка 1-й гвардейской истребительной авиадивизии ВВС Балтийского флота В.Ф. Голубевым, а шестерка FW190, встреченная в самом конце войны под Берлином четверкой «яков» 107-го гвардейского истребительного авиаполка 11-й гвардейской истребительной авиадивизии 2-й воздушной армии 1-го Украинского фронта, ушла на форсаже с набором высоты353…

 

В реальном воздушном бою превосходство FW190 в скороподъемности могло быть даже значительнее, чем можно думать, судя по таблице 15. Ведь советским «ястребкам» и в 1943-м вряд ли удавалось реализовать в бою свою теоретическую скороподъемность – хотя бы потому, что летчик не успевал вовремя изменять шаг винта (автоматического управления им на советских машинах, в отличие от FW190, все еще не было). А на Як-1 максимальную скороподъемность мешал развивать и перегревавшийся на больших оборотах двигатель…

 

По меньшей мере, не худшей, чем у советских «ястребков» 1943 г., была и вертикальная маневренность FW190 (чего опять-таки не признают отечественные авторы, не перестающие подчеркивать «чрезмерный вес» этой машины354). Указания на это можно найти и в советских источниках. Так, в выводе, сделанном после первого боя истребителей 8-й воздушной армии Южного фронта с FW190 (из 1-й штурмовой эскадры (1-го формирования); 27 апреля 1943 г.) – о том, что «Як-1, пилотируемый хорошим летчиком, имеет преимущество в вертикальном маневре»355, – явно не случайно пришлось поместить оговорку насчет «хорошего летчика»… В воспоминаниях некоторых советских пилотов-фронтовиков содержатся, далее, указания на то, что у Як-9Д вертикальная маневренность была хуже, чем у FW190356. Это подтверждается и результатами учебных воздушных боев между Як-9Д и трофейным FW190А-4, проведенных в августе 1943 г. в НИИ ВВС. После этих боев летчикам «яковлевых» рекомендовали «вести схватки на виражах»357; следовательно, в вертикальной маневренности Як-9Д явно проигрывал. И это при том, что состязавшийся с ним «фоккер» был, как уже отмечалось, дефектным и по летным данным уступал типичному FW190А-4! Наконец, Н.Г. Голодников – встречавшийся, воюя во 2-м гвардейском истребительном авиаполку ВВС Северного флота, с FW190 из 14-го (истребительно-бомбардировочного) отряда 5-й истребительной эскадры (с февраля 1944 г. – 4-й отряд 5-й штурмовой эскадры) – прямо утверждает, что «фоккеры» «на вертикали были очень сильны» (хотя и хуже, чем Bf109G)!358

 

Как ни парадоксально, но хорошая вертикальная маневренность FW190, помимо прочего, была обусловлена и его пресловутым большим весом – бÓльшим, и чем у Bf109, и чем у любого советского истребителя (см. табл. 16). Во-первых, разогнавшийся в горизонтальном полете тяжелый самолет обладает значительной инерцией. Поэтому-то FW190 (отличавшийся, что в данном случае очень важно, еще и превосходной управляемостью) и мог оторваться от преследователя, круто взмыв вверх или выполнив боевой разворот с набором высоты. Во-вторых, большой вес – в сочетании с хорошими аэродинамикой и энерговооруженностью и отменной прочностью конструкции – обусловил превосходство «фоккера» над любым советским истребителем в скорости пикирования. Пикируя, он разгонялся так быстро, что даже в пологом, под углом 30°, пике мог достичь скорости 1045 км/ч (sic!)359 – причем без каких-либо последствий для целости конструкции. Между тем для «лавочкиных» предельная скорость пикирования составляла лишь несколько более 700 км/ч, а для «яковлевых» – несколько менее 700 км/ч360: дальше, не выдерживая напора воздуха, начинали разрушаться деревянные крылья… А на многих «ястребках» выпуска 1942–1943 гг. нельзя было развивать на пикировании и такую скорость: из-за плохого качества постройки (например, некачественной склейки фанерной обшивки крыла с сосновым каркасом) и нестойкости деревянной конструкции к температурным перепадам их прочность была еще меньше. Так, у самолета Як-1 № 08110, выпущенного 14 декабря 1942 г. и успевшего совершить (в составе 31-го гвардейского истребительного авиаполка 6-й гвардейской истребительной авиадивизии 8-й воздушной армии Южного фронта) всего около 70 боевых вылетов, к 1 сентября 1943 г. обнаружилось коробление (т. е. отставание от каркаса) фанерной обшивки крыла и гаргрота фюзеляжа. После этого на нем, однако, было сделано еще несколько боевых вылетов361… В общем, «фоккеру» было значительно легче уйти от советских истребителей пикированием, чем этим последним – от «фоккера». (Скорее всего, именно поэтому пилоты FW190 в начале 1943-го редко выходили из боя вверх – пикирование было для них более эффективным способом отрыва от противника.)

 

В этой связи явно поспешным выглядит утверждение авторов «Тактики истребительной авиации» о том, что «на пикировании Як-7 догоняет ФВ-190»362. Конечно, в каком-то бою заранее разогнавшийся «як» мог настичь только что вошедший в пике «фоккер» – но подобная ситуация должна была быть исключением. 3 ноября 1943 г. в районе Киева А.В. Ворожейкин из 728-го истребительного авиаполка 256-й истребительной авиадивизии 2-й воздушной армии 1-го Украинского фронта попытался догнать на Як-7б уходящий пикированием FW190 – однако сблизиться на дистанцию эффективного огня так и не смог, а «як», превысивший предельно допустимую для него скорость, оказался после выхода из пике так деформирован, что его пришлось списать… Когда FW190 пикирует, предупреждал А.Д. Якименко из 150-го гвардейского истребительного авиаполка, сражавшегося в 1943-м на Як-1, «гнаться за ним не надо – и не догонишь, и попадешь под огонь сзади идущих»363.

 

Но даже если врага не удалось стряхнуть с хвоста на пикировании, у FW190 были большие шансы добиться этого, перейдя после выхода из пике в набор высоты. Огромная скорость, набранная на пикировании, сообщала вышедшему из пике «фоккеру» такую инерцию, что догнать его – особенно если он уходил вверх по пологой траектории – было очень трудно. «Скороподъемность с пикирования, – констатировали американцы, испытывавшие летом 1942-го трофейный FW190А-3, – феноменальная»364. А советские специалисты, испытав в 1943 г. FW190А-4, отметили и еще одну особенность «фоккера», улучшавшую его вертикальную маневренность, – очень большую устойчивость при переходе на вертикаль365. Благодаря этому лезущий вверх FW190 – несмотря на отсутствие у него (как, кстати, и у всех «яков») предкрылков – не так быстро, как советские истребители, терял скорость.

 

... второй немецкий истребитель Восточного фронта – FW190, – превосходя большинство советских «ястребков» по скорости и скороподъемности, почти всем им не уступал и в горизонтальной маневренности!

 

Последнее утверждение для русского уха звучит абсолютно непривычно, даже дико: ведь в нашей стране «фоккер» принято представлять прежде всего «тяжелым», «неуклюжим», «неповоротливым» самолетом. Тезис о том, что в маневренном бою с советскими «ястребками» FW190, в отличие от более легкого Bf109, не имел совсем уже никаких шансов, в отечественной литературе стал просто аксиомой! (Отход от этой позиции наметился только после выхода в 2005 г. первого издания этой книги430.) Между тем на Западе о маневренных качествах «фокке-вульфа» господствует прямо противоположное мнение. Этот истребитель, утверждают западные историки, «превосходно проявил себя в маневренных воздушных боях», по горизонтальной маневренности оказавшись не только лучше Bf109, но и не хуже исключительно маневренного «Спитфайра» F Mk.V!431 Среди источников, на которых основывается такая оценка, выделяются воспоминания новозеландца А.К. Дира, который 2 июня 1942 г. на «Спитфайре» F Mk.V вступил над Северной Францией в бой с только что появившимися на фронте FW190А-3. «Я крутился и вертелся, – свидетельствует Дир, – в отчаянной попытке избежать попадания в прицел и в то же время старался сам занять выгодную позицию для атаки. Никогда раньше я не видел, чтобы эти гунны могли так воевать и выделывать такие штуки, которые они теперь вытворяли на своих новых «фоккерах»432. Этот бой происходил на большой высоте, но не легче приходилось англосаксам и на малой… «Я заложил такой крутой вираж, на какой только был способен «спитфайр» [F Mk.V. – А.С .], – вспоминал о своей схватке с FW190, проходившей 19 августа 1942 г. в районе Дьеппа во Франции английский ас Д.Э. Джонсон, – но «фоккер» приклеился к моему хвосту, как пиявка. […] У самой земли я выполнил еще один крутой вираж, проскочив над самыми крышами. Однако «фоккер» все еще висел у меня на хвосте»433. И это «тяжелый» и «неповоротливый» истребитель!

 

О хорошей – по крайней мере, лучшей, чем у Bf109, – горизонтальной маневренности FW190 свидетельствуют и источники, освещающие воздушную войну на советско-германском фронте – как немецкие, так и советские. Прямым указанием авторов выпущенной в 1943 г. в СССР книги «Тактика истребительной авиации» на то, что у FW190 «горизонтальная маневренность лучше, чем [у. – А.С. ] самолета Ме-109Г»434, можно, конечно, пренебречь: в этой работе немало явно поспешных и ошибочных выводов относительно летных данных «фоккера» (например, о том, что он хуже, чем «мессершмитт», пикирует435). Но такой же вывод сделали и летчики 13-й и 14-й воздушных армий (соответственно Ленинградского и Волховского фронтов). FW190, обобщал опыт своих пилотов составленный в январе 1943 г. доклад разведотдела 13-й воздушной, «предпочитают маневрировать по горизонтали – они более маневренны и устойчивы в полете, чем «мессершмитты». Когда летчики Як-1 навязывали ФВ-190 бои на вертикалях, «фокке-вульфы» становились в вираж, а затем пикированием выходили из боя…»436. А в политдонесении начальника политуправления Волховского фронта от 23 января 1943 г. – также на основании докладов летчиков – утверждалось, что для оказания «Мессершмиттам-109» помощи в борьбе с Ла-5 немцам пришлось применить самолет «Фокке-Вульф-190» – «имеющий хорошую маневренность»437.

 

Google translation in spoiler:

 

 

With La-5 at the "Fockers" was the approximate equality to a height of 2000 m climb these machines was about the same; from 2000 to 3000 m had a theoretical superiority La-5 and above 3000 m - FW190A-4 and A-5. In general, in the area of the major air battles "Focke-Wulf" in 1943, only inferior to climb La-5FN, which, recall, at the front appeared only in July.

 

For the reader who is used to traditional for Russian literature opposition of "heavy and clumsy "" Fockers "" light and agile "Soviet fighters, this conclusion sounds quite unexpectedly. But let us not forget that the idea of a mediocre climb FW190 our literature owes much to the results of tests of the first trophy of machines of this type - a car, these were not new and serviceable but worn and defective

 

However, according to the Soviet staff officers, was released in 1943 . operation "The tactics of fighter aircraft," the lack of climb "Fockers" has identified and combat practice. "For all the fights, - stated in this work - was not observed to the PV-190 at equal height with our fighters did attempt to escape upwards. It confirms its lower rate of climb compared to our fighters [...] "348. However, the German pilots directly deny the validity of such a conclusion! For example, a veteran of the Eastern Front F. Kraytel, fly on FW190 as part of attack aircraft, indicates that «FW190 took great vertical, and one of the possibilities to escape from the pursuing enemy was rapidly take over the helm and make the candle" 349. It was about the assault modifications "One hundred and ninety", but also had to behave and destructive: it with the same engine they weighed no more assault (the weight of two additional guns and ammunition - about 150 kg - on fighter offset lower by about 200 broni350 kg). This is confirmed by the test results captured FW190A-3, held in July 1942 by the Americans. "It was found that, when the" Mustang "attack Fw190, the latter may take a sharp climb [...] Set the height of the horizontal flight is very good at high angle of ascent" 351. And in Soviet sources, over time, recorded cases of the release of "Fockers" from the fight up. According to, for example, documents 900 th Fighter Wing 240th Fighter Air Division (whose Yak-9 and Yak-9T in the fall of 1943 acted as a part of the 3rd Air Army of the Kalinin Front, and in the summer of 1944 - as part of 1- th air army 3rd Belorussian front), in a similar way FW190 behaved in battle October 10, 1943 in Nevel area, 19 and 23 August 1944 - in Vilkaviškis district (Lithuania), September 1, 1944 - in the area Shakyaya (Lithuania), 17 February 1945 - in Melzaka area (East Prussia) 352 ... "candle" went up and "jib", attacked in July 1944 over the bay hooks on La-5 commander of the 4th Guards Fighter Aviation regiment 1 th Guards fighter Air Division Air Baltic fleet VF Golubev and six FW190, was greeted at the end of the war near Berlin Quartet "yak" 107 th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 11th Guards Fighter Air Division of the 2nd Air Army of the 1st Ukrainian Front went on the afterburner with a set vysoty353 ...

 

In the real air superiority in battle FW190 climb could be even greater than you think, according to table 15. After the Soviet "hawks" and in 1943 hardly able to realize in action his theoretical climb - if only because that the pilot did not have time to change the time step screws (automatic control them on the Soviet machines, unlike FW190, still was not). A Yak-1, the maximum rate of climb bothered to develop and overheat the engine at high speeds ...

 

At least, not worse, than the Soviet "Yastrebkov" 1943 has been and vertical maneuverability FW190 (which, again, does not recognize domestic authors, not stop emphasizing "overweight" this mashiny354). Indications of this can be found in Soviet sources. For example, in the conclusions drawn after the first battle of fighters of the 8th Air Army of the Southern Front with FW190 (from the 1st Assault Squadron (1st formation); April 27, 1943) - that "Yak-1 piloted good pilot, has the advantage of vertical maneuver "355 - is clearly no accident had placed a reservation about the" good pilot "... in the memoirs of some Soviet front-line pilots contains further indications that the Yak-9D vertical maneuverability was worse than in FW190356. This is confirmed by the results of mock battles between the Yak-9D and captured FW190A-4, held in August 1943 at the Air Force Institute. After these fights pilots "Yakovlev" recommended "to lead the fight on bends" 357; therefore, in the vertical maneuverability Yak-9D obviously lost. And this despite the fact that the "Fokker" to compete with him was, as already noted, defective and flight data yielded typical FW190A-4! Finally, NG Golodnikov - meet, fighting in the 2nd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment Northern Fleet Air Force, with FW190 from the 14th (Fighter-Bomber) detachment of the 5th Fighter Squadron (February 1944 - 4th Detachment 5 th Attack Squadron) - directly states that "Fockers" "on the vertical were very strong" (although worse than Bf109G) 358!

 

paradoxically, but a good vertical maneuverability FW190, among other things, was due to his notorious big weight - widened and what in Bf109, and than any Soviet fighter (see. Table. 16). Firstly, speeding in heavy horizontal flight aircraft has considerable inertia. That is why the FW190 (distinguished, which in this case is very important, also excellent controllability) and could break away from the pursuer, cool soaring up or executing combat climbing turn. Secondly, a lot of weight - combined with good aerodynamics and installed power and excellent structural strength - led superiority "Fokker" over any Soviet fighter in the dive speed. Swooping, he accelerated so quickly that even in the canopy, at an angle of 30 °, the peak can reach a speed of 1045 km / h (sic!) 359 - and without any consequences for the integrity of the structure. Meanwhile, for "Lavochkin" speed limit dive was only a few more than 700 km / h, and for "Yakovlev" - more than 700 km / ch360: further, not withstanding the air pressure, began to break down the wooden wings ... And many of the "hawks" issue 1942-1943 biennium. it was impossible to develop a dive and this speed because of the poor quality of construction (eg defective gluing plywood sheathing wing with pine-framed) and wooden structure instability to temperature changes of their strength was still less. So, the Yak-1 number 08110, issued December 14, 1942, and had managed to make (a part of the 31 th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 6th Guards Fighter Air Division of the 8th Air Army of the Southern Front) only about 70 sorties to 1 September 1943 found warping (ie. e. the gap from the frame) plywood paneling and wing fuselage fairing. After that, it was, however, made ​​a few more combat vyletov361 ... In general, the "Fokker" was much easier to get away from the Soviet fighters dive than the latter - from the "Fokker". (Most likely, this is why FW190 drivers at the beginning of 1943, rarely come out of the battle up -. Dive was for them a more effective way of separation from the enemy)

 

In this regard, obviously hasty looks approval of the authors of "The tactics of fighter aircraft" that "on dive Yak-7 catching up with the PV-190 "362. Of course, in some pre-fight speeding "yak" I could overtake just entered the peak of the "Fokker" - but such a situation should be an exception. November 3, 1943 in the Kiev region A. Vorozheikin of the 728 th Fighter Wing 256th Fighter Air Division of the 2nd Air Army of the 1st Ukrainian Front, tried to catch up with the Yak-7b outgoing dive FW190 - but closer to the distance of effective fire and could not, and "yak", exceeds the limit permissible for him to speed, it appeared after the release of the dive so deformed that it had to write off ... When FW190 dives, warned AD Yakimenko of the 150 th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, who fought in 1943 on the Yak-1, "chase is not necessary for him - and not catch up and you will get under fire from behind walking" 363.

 

However, even if the enemy was unable to shake off the tail to dive have FW190 had big chances to achieve this by going after leaving the peak in the climb. The enormous speed of typing on a dive, reports withdrawn from the peak of the "Fokker" such inertia that catch up with him - especially when he went up the sloping path - it was very difficult. "Rate of climb dive - Americans are stated to experience in the summer of 1942 captured FW190A-3 - phenomenal" 364. A Soviet specialists, experienced in 1943 FW190A-4, and noted another feature of the "Fokker" and improves its vertical mobility - very high stability during the transition to vertikal365. This climbing up FW190 - despite the lack of it (as, by the way, and all the "yak") slats - are not as fast as the Soviet fighters, losing speed.

 

... A second German fighter of the Eastern Front - FW190, - surpassing most Soviet "Yastrebkov" the speed and rate of climb, almost all of them did not concede and horizontal maneuverability!

 

The last statement to the Russian ear sounds totally unusual, even crazy: because in our country, "Fokker" made ​​to represent above all a "heavy", "clumsy" "clumsy" aircraft. The thesis that maneuvering in battle with the Soviet "hawks» FW190, as opposed to the lighter Bf109, was not quite have no chance in the Soviet literature was just an axiom! (Departure from this position only after there has been in 2005, the first edition of this knigi430.) Meanwhile, in the West of maneuvering qualities "Focke-Wulf" opposite view prevails. This fighter, Western historians say, "proved to be an excellent maneuverability in air combat," the horizontal maneuverability was not only better Bf109, but no worse than exceptional maneuverability 'Spitfire »F Mk.V! 431 Among the sources on which to base such an assessment, allocated memory Kiwi AK Dir that June 2, 1942 on the "Spitfire» F Mk.V took over Northern France in the fight with just appeared on the front FW190A-3. "I spun and spun - shows Dir - in a desperate attempt to avoid falling into the scope and at the same time he tried to take a favorable position to attack. Never before had I seen the Huns could just fight and fabricate these things, that they now get up on their new "Fokker" 432. This fight took place at high altitude, but not easily accounted for the Anglo-Saxons and the small ... "I laid down a steep turn on what was only able to" Spitfire »[F Mk.V. - AS] -. Recalled his battle with FW190, held on 19 August 1942 in the district of Dieppe in France English ace DE Johnson - but "Fokker" stuck to my tail, like a leech. [...] At the ground I performed another sharp turn, slipped on most roofs. However, the "Fokker" is still hanging on my tail "433. And it is "hard" and "clumsy" fighter!

 

Oh well - at least better than the Bf109, - horizontal maneuverability FW190 evidence and sources, covering the air war on the Soviet-German front - both German and Soviet. Direct indication of the authors published in 1943 in the Soviet Union of the book "The tactics of fighter aircraft" that have FW190 "horizontal agility better than [y. - AS ] Me-109G aircraft "434, it is possible, of course, be ignored: in this work is clearly a lot of hasty and erroneous conclusions about the flight" Fokker "data (eg, that it is worse than the" Messerschmitt "pikiruet435). However, the same conclusion was made ​​by the pilots and the 13th and 14th air armies (respectively, the Leningrad and Volkhov fronts). FW190, generalized the experience of its pilots drawn up in January 1943, the report of the intelligence of the 13th air, "prefer to maneuver horizontally - they are more maneuverable and stable in flight than the" Messerschmitt ". When the pilots of the Yak-1 PV-190 imposed fighting on the verticals, "Focke-Wulf" became in turn, and then dive out of the fight ... "436. And politdonesenii Head of Political Volkhov Front of January 23, 1943 - also on the basis of reports of pilots - it argued that in order to "Messerschmitt-109" help in the fight against the La-5 Germans had to use aircraft "Focke-Wulf-190" - " having good maneuverability "437.

 

 

Bold texts is for Turban, who takes the case of a LaGG-3 that dives with a FW-190 like a "Why not lol ?".

 

All the text is interesting, i advise everyone to read it if not done. The translation is far from perfect, but the principal is understandable.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Dr_Molem

[Turban]

Do not thank me...

 

 

For what ? The headache ?

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I must say Turban, you start to come out as pretty annoying. You are not presenting anything yourself on the matter and just talk down everything presented.

I can only conclude that you are a troll just wanting to mouth off against anything to keep the discussion from progressing.

[Turban]

I guess you don't have a sense of humor..

 

A headache is the first thing I got out of reading it 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Turban

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It has been a pattern with him.

[MadisonV44]

Turban you avoid the subject when evidences and materials contradict your theory. A simple right click to select "translation" on the page should take away your headache. Your perpetual trolling is annoying and is often pushing people to get out of the topic. So let's come back to the facts.

Edited September 18, 2016 by MadisonV44

[LuftManu]

I hope we get a revision when the A5 comes.. if is going to be standard more people is going to use it and more complains can come.

[Turban]

Turban you avoid the subject when evidences and materials contradict your theory. A simple right click to select "translation" on the page should take away your headache. Your perpetual trolling is annoying and is often pushing people to get out of the topic. So let's come back to the facts.

 

 

I did read all of it. It's interesting and nothing so suprising when it comes to diving acceleration and zoom climbing etc.

 

But yeah, honestly what can I say, nothing ground breaking either. Nothing that shows "hey, the FW is wrong here and there". Just an itch. And a headache. What can I say really.

[Holtzauge]

Interesting what Dr_Molem posted and thanks for the translation!

 

Just a thought and it has probably been mentioned before: Could the difference in western and eastern assessment of the Fw-190's performance as a fighter stem from how they were used in the different theaters? In the west, AFAIK many of the Luftwaffe's top fighter pilots flew the Fw-190 in a dedicated fighter type role where as AFAIK the Fw-190 was used a lot as a Jabo in the east? If so it stands to reason that the pilots the Russians met were more accustomed to a ground pounding role than a fighter role meaning they may not have been as tough an opponent in fighter combat as those the RAF met?

[LuftManu]

Interesting what Dr_Molem posted and thanks for the translation!

 

Just a thought and it has probably been mentioned before: Could the difference in western and eastern assessment of the Fw-190's performance as a fighter stem from how they were used in the different theaters? In the west, AFAIK many of the Luftwaffe's top fighter pilots flew the Fw-190 in a dedicated fighter type role where as AFAIK the Fw-190 was used a lot as a Jabo in the east? If so it stands to reason that the pilots the Russians met were more accustomed to a ground pounding role than a fighter role meaning they may not have been as tough an opponent in fighter combat as those the RAF met?

That is one of the reasons, plus the VSS didnt want to admit a superior fighter appeared just when the 109 stoped to be almost invicible. 

[unreasonable]

It has been mentioned - often. The trouble is that we usually have no way of knowing if the Soviet accounts of fights with 190s are with Jabo units or JGs, or even, in truth, how much difference it would make unless the JG flyer was one of the true experts.

 

The detail may be deducible from the timing and location of the actions, but generally I have only seen generic information on the forums.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Just a thought and it has probably been mentioned before: Could the difference in western and eastern assessment of the Fw-190's performance as a fighter stem from how they were used in the different theaters? In the west, AFAIK many of the Luftwaffe's top fighter pilots flew the Fw-190 in a dedicated fighter type role where as AFAIK the Fw-190 was used a lot as a Jabo in the east? If so it stands to reason that the pilots the Russians met were more accustomed to a ground pounding role than a fighter role meaning they may not have been as tough an opponent in fighter combat as those the RAF met?

 

Soviet pilot Nikolai G. Golodnikov

 

The Bf 109, called "the lean" (the Soviet nickname for the series) was widely considered by Soviet airmen as a more agile and potent adversary than the Fw 190, which was viewed as "heavy and slow..." especially when climbing. Though it should be remembered that the Fw 190F and G ground attack versions essentially replaced the obsolete Ju 87 on the Eastern front during the latter part of the war. These heavily armoured versions of the Fw 190, piloted by ex-Stuka air crew were indistinguishable in the air from the pure fighter versions and thus Soviet pilots may be correctly reporting an observation, but one that distorts the true capabilities of the aircraft when deployed in the pure fighter form.
Soviet pilot Nikolai G. Golodnikov claimed the Fw 190 to be inferior to the Bf 109; "It did not accelerate as quickly and in this aspect was inferior to most of our aircraft, except for the P-40, perhaps." Goldonikov noted that Germans pilots appreciated the Fw 190 radial engine as a shield, and frequently made head-on attacks in air-to-air combat. "The plane", noted Golodnikov, "had extremely powerful weapons: four 20 mm guns and two machine guns. Soon, however, the Germans started evading frontal attack against our "Cobras". We had a 37 mm gun, so no engine would save you, and one hit was enough to kill you.
The general rule for Soviet airmen in the latter war years was to take advantage of their turning ability, acceleration, and rate of climb to force the adversary into entering a horizontal or vertical manoeuvre. Likewise, La-5FNs freely took up the challenge as an "energy or angles" fighter against all Fw 190As, and as "angles" fighters against the Fw 190D, which was considered by the Soviet pilots as a fighter that "burned as well as other aircraft, and was easier to hit

 

Russian opinion concerning the FW-190, as printed in the "Red Fleet."

 

The FW-190 first appeared on the Soviet-German front at the end of 1942. This is the first high-speed German fighter with an air-cooled engine. In comparison with the Me-109 and its modernized versions, the Me-109F and the Me-109G, the FW-190 is of a higher quality. The speed of the FW-190 is slightly higher than that of the Messerschmitt; it also has more powerful armament and is more maneuverable in horizontal flight. The FW-190 has a large supply of ammunition, with 15 seconds of cannon fire, and 50 seconds of constant machine-gun fire. For this reason the gunners are not economical with their ammunition, and often open up the so-called "frightening fire". The pilots have good visibility laterally, forward, upward and rearward. A fairly good horizontal maneuver permits the FW-190 to turn at low speed without falling into a tail spin. An armored ring on the front part of the engine provides the pilot with reliable protection; for this reason, the FW-190's quite often make frontal attacks. In this way they differ from the Me-109s. One shortcoming of the FW-190 is its weight. The lightest model of this plane weighs 3,500 kgs. (7,700 lbs), while the average weight is from 3,800 (8,360 lbs) to 3,900 kgs. (8,580 lbs). Since the FW-190 is so heavy and does not have a high-altitude engine, pilots do not like to fight in vertical maneuvers. Another weak point in the FW-190 is the poor visibility downward, both forward and rearward. The FW-190 is seriously handicapped in still another way; there is no armor around the gas tanks, which are situated under the pilot's seat and behind it. From below, the pilot is not protected in any way; from behind, the only protection is the ordinary seat-back with 15-mm of armor. Even bullets from our large caliber machine guns penetrate this armor, to say nothing of cannon. The main problem confronting our fliers is that of forcing the Germans to fight from positions advantageous to us. The FW-190's eagerly make frontal attacks. Their methods of conducting fire in such cases is quite stereotyped. To begin with the Germans open fire with long-range ammunition from the horizontal cannons at a distance of 1,000 meters (3,200 feet). At 500 or 400 meters (1,000 or 1,300 feet) the FW-190 opens fire from all guns. Since the planes approach each other at an extremely great speed during frontal attacks one should never, under any circumstances, turn from the given course. Fire should be opened at a distance of 700 or 800 meters, (2,300 or 2,600 feet). Practice has shown that in frontal attacks both planes are so damaged that, in the majority of cases, they are compelled to drop out of the battle. Therefore, frontal attacks with FW-190's may be made only when the battle happens to be over our territory. Frontal engagements over enemy territory, or even more so in the enemy rear, should be avoided. If a frontal attack of an FW-190 should fail the pilot usually attempts to change the attacks into a turning engagement. Being very stable and having a large range of speeds, the FW-190 will inevitably offer turning battle at a minimum speed. Our Lavochkin-5 may freely take up the challenge, if the pilot uses the elevator tabs correctly. By using your foot to hold the plane from falling into a tail spin you can turn the La-5 at an exceedingly low speed, thus keeping the FW from getting on your tail. When fighting the La-5, the FW risks a vertical maneuver only at high speed. For example, let us assume that the first frontal attack of an FW failed. The plane then goes on ahead and prepares for a second frontal attack. If it fails a second time, the pilot turns sharply to the side and goes into a steep dive. On coming out of the dive, he picks up speed in horizontal flight and engages the opposing plane in a vertical maneuver. Vertical-maneuver fighting with the FW-190 is usually of short duration since our planes have a better rate of climb than the German planes, and because the Germans are unable to withstand tense battles of any length. The winner in present air battles must have an advantage in altitude. This is especially true with regard to the FW-190. "Once a comrade of mine and I engaged two FW-190's at a height of 3,500 meters (10,850 ft). After three energetic attacks we succeeded in chasing the two FW-190's down to 1,500 meters (4,650 ft). All the while we kept our advantage in height. As usual the German tried, out of an inverted turn, to get away and below, but I got one in my sight and shot it down. After that we immediately went up to 3,700 meters (11,470 ft) and met another group of FW-190's as they were attacking one of our Pe-2 bombers. We made use of our advantage in height and by vertical attacks succeeded in chasing the Germans away and also shot one down." When following a diving FW you should never dive below the other enemy planes. When two planes dive the one following the leader should come out of the dive in such a way as to be at an advantage over the leading plane in height and speed. In this way the tail of the leading plane will be protected; at the same time, the second plane will also be able to open up direct fire against the enemy. In fighting the FW-190 our La-5 should force the Germans to fight by using the vertical maneuver. This may be achieved by constantly making vertical attacks. The first climb of the FW is usually good, the second worse, and the third altogether poor. This may be explained by the fact that the FW's great weight does not permit it to gather speed quickly in the vertical maneuver. After two or three persistent attacks by our fighters the FWs completely lose their advantage in height and in speed, and inevitably find themselves below. And because of this, they are sure to drop out of the battle into a straight dive (sometimes up to 90 degrees) with the idea of gaining height on the side, and then of coming in again from the side of the sun with an advantage in speed and height. At times it happens that the FW, after diving, does not gain altitude, but attempts to drop out of the battle altogether in low flight. However, the FW-190 is never able to come out of a dive below 300 or 250 meters (930 ft or 795 ft). Coming out of a dive, made from 1,500 meters (4,650 ft) and at an angle of 40 to 45 degrees, the FW-190 falls an extra 200 meters (620 ft). A shortcoming of the FW-190 is its poor climbing ability. When climbing in order to get an altitude advantage over the enemy, there is a moment when the FW-190 "hangs" in the air. It is then convenient to fire. Therefore, when following a FW-190 in a dive, you should bring your plane out of the dive slightly before the FW comes out of it, in order to catch up with him on the vertical plane. In other words, when the FW comes out of the dive you should bring your plane out in such a way as to have an advantage over the enemy in height. If this can be achieved, the FW-190 becomes a fine target when it "hangs". Direct fire should be opened up at a short distance, 50 to 100 meters (150 to 300 ft). It should also be remembered that the weakest spots of the FW-190 are below and behind--the gasoline tanks and the pilot's legs, which are not protected. Throughout the whole engagement with a FW-190, it is necessary to maintain the highest speed possible. The Lavochkin-5 will then have, when necessary, a good vertical maneuver, and consequently, the possibility of getting away from an enemy attack or on the contrary, of attacking. It should further be kept in mind that the La-5 and the FW-190 in outward appearance resemble each other very much; therefore, careful observation is of great importance. We may emphasize once more: never let an enemy plane gain an altitude advantage over you and you will win the fight.

[JtD]

Two somewhat unrelated cents: Fw190 on the Western front were also often used a fighter bombers, which in fact added to their reputation. The low level attacks against the English coast were very hard to intercept, due to lack of low altitude radar and the comparably high low altitude speed of the Fw190. This wouldn't impress any one at the eastern front, though, where radar was lacking and fighting took place at low altitude anyway.

 

Edit: The assessment posted by Custard illustrates lack of understand more than anything else. For instance, you can find in that text: "here is no armor around the gas tanks, which are situated under the pilot's seat and behind it. From below, the pilot is not protected in any way" - the Focke Wulf design team in fact put the tanks below the pilot in order to protect him, something that was so far off Soviet design philosophy, that they didn't get it even when looking at it. That's no exception, though, it happened all the time with captured equipment.

Edited September 18, 2016 by JtD

[Turban]

Getting hit in the... tail from below is no joke. You can completely explode with 1 round. I'm serious. So that whole "fuel tank is a weakness" thing.. sounds true to me.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Turban

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I

 

Edit: The assessment posted by Custard illustrates lack of understand more than anything else.

 

 

I think what it also illustrates is the wildly differing views held by the various belligerents regarding this aircraft in WWII.

 

I can't even begin to image the "discussions" some folk are going to have on here when the Spit MkVB arrives or heavens to murgatroyd we get a P-51!

[JtD]

It will be interesting times.

[JG4_dingsda]

 

 

Vertical-maneuver fighting with the FW-190 is usually of short duration [...] because the Germans are unable to withstand tense battles of any length.

 

Has something edifying about it.

[Stig]

That is one of the reasons, plus the VSS didnt want to admit a superior fighter appeared just when the 109 stoped to be almost invicible. 

 

The 109 shot down more VVS aircraft than the Fw 190. When the did the 109 stop being 'invincible' on the Eastern Front?

 

The 190 served mainly, not exclusively, as a Jabo on the EF, while others were transferred to the West as the threat from 8th USAAF intensified. At the same time some units like III/ JG26 that had been flying 190's converted to 109G's because the 190 lacked in high alt performance.

[LuftManu]

The 109 shot down more VVS aircraft than the Fw 190. When the did the 109 stop being 'invincible' on the Eastern Front?

 

The 190 served mainly, not exclusively, as a Jabo on the EF, while others were transferred to the West as the threat from 8th USAAF intensified. At the same time some units like III/ JG26 that had been flying 190's converted to 109G's because the 190 lacked in high alt performance.

I Was referring to the first stages of the war when the 109, combined with experienced pilots and more polished doctrine did huge damage to the VVS. In the 43, with the arrival of better machines the situation was more even.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Ala13_ManuV