Flying the Fw 190 A-3 is challenging

[MadisonV44]

@6./ZG26_Asgar :  Maybe there something going wrong with translating fineness between your understanding and mine : 

 

Here is what we call fineness ratio in French (Finesse aérodynamique)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finesse_(a%C3%A9rodynamique)

 

And here's it's equivalence in English (same Wiki Thread) : 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-to-drag_ratio

 

Can you explain more in detail what your are thinking Finesse really is in your understanding ? 

 

[Asgar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fineness_ratio

 

 

 

it is the ratio of the length of a body to its maximum width; shapes that are "short and fat" have a low fineness ratio, those that are "long and skinny" have high fineness ratios. Aircraft that spend time at supersonic speeds generally have high fineness ratios, a canonical example being Concorde.

Edited September 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[beepee]

The lag displacement roll is your friend in the 190.

 

[seafireliv]

The 190 has always been challenging to fly. It truly separates the men from the boys.  It takes a special kind of discipline to fly. But that`s not a problem, it just teaches you to use the correct flying tactics.

[WWChunk]

It is a challenge, and I enjoy flying it; but it'd be an absolute blast to fly with a couple of adjustments to a more historical level.

 

Also, did someone on the RU forum complain, and that's why it was changed?  I'm not trying to start a storm with that question, I have just never heard that brought up before.  I had assumed that the devs found new info and made the fineness change that somewhat neutered the 190.

[MadisonV44]

True, could not agree more on that ... and that why its a pleasure to fly her in pair or in schwarm when you fly in an organized squad 

Now we just need to recover the 2015 version we had in BOS (at least ...) because those flying tactics are not so useful in the hangar.

[Wulf]

The best thing for a 190 is a wingman with that being yourself or a mate. Unlike the 109,the 190 needs to keep it's speed up a lot more. If you start to dip below 350 km/h you need to think about disengaging (stalling will be very easy to accidentally do)  and this is alto why a buddy is better. With a wing man you can do alternate BnZ attacks keeping it simple and the enemy will always be in sight. Personally I try to fly it around 5K an with a mate it's a good height as most of the fights are lower and if needed you can fly away if you are in trouble by diving  

 

 

And what if your enemy also has a wingman; what then?  After all, in air combat, the smallest unit is always two.

 

And how does this sort of thing (attempting to paper over the cracks with fatuous comments) help in the current situation?  The 'problems' with the 190 can't be corrected with tactics.

 

The 190 is broken.  What we require in this situation is someone, in a position of authority within 'the Company', to demonstrate a bit of courage and leadership and insist that it gets fixed.   

Edited September 10, 2016 by Wulf

[JG5_Zesphr]

And what if your enemy also has a wingman; what then?  After all, in air combat, the smallest unit is always two.

 

And how does this sort of thing (attempting to paper over the cracks with fatuous comments) help in the current situation?  The 'problems' with the 190 can't be corrected with tactics.

 

The 190 is broken.  What we require in this situation is someone, in a position of authority within 'the Company', to demonstrate a bit of courage and leadership and insist that it gets fixed.  

I've only met Russians at 5000m very rarely so from my experience there's still the height advantage plus even on TAW there's still solo players. Also I'm not glossing over any problem with the 190, I didn't comment on them because I don't have the knowledge to make a call on how historical it may be so I stuck to things I did know (that being how I use it with it's current FM). Another thing is even if it is broken people still want to fly the kite so it's better than saying just let it gather dust and if you re-read the OP this is what Luft was asking 

[Wulf]

I've only met Russians at 5000m very rarely so from my experience there's still the height advantage plus even on TAW there's still solo players. Also I'm not glossing over any problem with the 190, I didn't comment on them because I don't have the knowledge to make a call on how historical it may be so I stuck to things I did know (that being how I use it with it's current FM). Another thing is even if it is broken people still want to fly the kite so it's better than saying just let it gather dust and if you re-read the OP this is what Luft was asking 

 

 

Sorry, my tone was a little harsh.  I apologize for that. I'm just fed-up with all the endless work-around bs.  .  As far as I'm concerned comments of this nature are just 'enabling'.  Like suggesting a battered wife should modify her own behaviour if she wants to avoid a beating.  

[DD_Arthur]

 

Also, did someone on the RU forum complain, and that's why it was changed?  I'm not trying to start a storm with that question, I have just never heard that brought up before.  I had assumed that the devs found new info and made the fineness change that somewhat neutered the 190.

 

Eh?  No one "complained."  The devs did receive new info that was obviously enough to convince them to change certain parameters.  They didn't change it to "neuter" it either; they make changes to try as much as possible to align the aircraft with historical references and performance.

 

As we know; on this occasion these changes to its accelerated stall characteristics have to all intents and purposes rendered it largely un-useable as a fighter aircraft.  The problem for us - for starters - is what exactly this "fineness ratio" actually is and then convincing the devs to either reverse it or do further work on it. 

 

Edit; thanks for the useful wiki links Madison.  Understand fineness ratio now.

Edited September 11, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[Luft1942]

All day with the 190 and I've only managed to get 3 kills lol I can't fly this thing to save my life. I tried playing with a buddy who has it too but he only played one game before going back to his 109. I tried changing all my sensitivities and dead zones and nothing really helps. From what I've read in the forum today it sounds like it use to be a really good plane but now it isn't that great. Im going to keep practicing because this plane is really beautiful and has great firepower but the stalling is ridiculous.

[Daff]

Yeah flying the 190 in BoS successfully (key word there) is a challenge. I was cocky and it has stomped me, and then in a online dog fight, I throw out all the rules of flying it and do exactly what you shouldn't lol. The fire power though! I like the advice of flying with a wingman, something I really need to consider.

It is a awesome strike fighter aswell.  Boom and Zoom is the key here.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Foghorn

[Asgar]

In every interview FW pilots describe it as a joy to fly, even more so than the Bf 109. The current flight model on the other hand is torture. That's my only problem with it. It's just not fun to fly it. The old FM we had was really good in my opinion. maybe not perfect but no FM in any flight sim can or will ever be perfect so i take a fun FM over a .5% more correct one any day.

 

[150GCT_Veltro]

[Asgar]

That's the old FM  right?

[Turban]

It is a joy to fly. It takes a bit of time to start using it efficiently, but the ride is on of the best if not the best in the game.

I come from the Mig 3 maybe that help.

 

I absolutely love the FW and I actually am having a lot of fun with it. 

You need to change yourself to fly it well. That's all. If you don't it won't change itself to accomodate you.

 

In that aerobatics video I don't see anything that can't be done today. The FW has great controls even at low speed. 

 

I've always asked people to put videos of the problems they experience with the FW. I'd like to see one...

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

That's the old FM right?

Ja

[beepee]

 

 

I absolutely love the FW and I actually am having a lot of fun with it

 

+1 for me.

 

I have had to teach myself to fly it, but I have found it to be pretty effective if you treat her right.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I don't fly it much, but last time i was trying to stay on enemy six, he turned left so did i and to my surprise left wing stall out and i went into unrecoverable spin and crashed.  I was startled how easy it stall out compared to others planes in same conditions.

[beepee]

 

 

I don't fly it much, but last time i was trying to stay on enemy six, he turned left so did i and to my surprise left wing stall out and i went into unrecoverable spin and crashed. I was startled how easy it stall out compared to others planes in same conditions.

 

 

Well...don't try and turn in the normal way then.

 

If the bandit is pulling a hard left turn... Try pulling up a bit, rolling to the right then pulling back down on to the bandito's tail.

 

Never try and flat turn a 190. Didn't work in the old IL2 either.

[Irgendjemand]

Hi guys, I made a poll on what everyone thinks if FW 190 A3 FM should get a re evaluation.

You can find it HERE

[Turban]

I don't fly it much, but last time i was trying to stay on enemy six, he turned left so did i and to my surprise left wing stall out and i went into unrecoverable spin and crashed.  I was startled how easy it stall out compared to others planes in same conditions.

What was your altitude? How tight was the turn. Was it really the FW's fault or maybe a simple mistake on your part?

 

I have asked people to show ingame footage of an unrecoverable spin in the FW 190. I haven't experienced a spin that could not be recovered.

 

I am yet to see ingame footage of that unrecoverable spin.

 

I suspect that people simply don't apply the right procedure.

 

Sadly it's easier to say the plane has a problem than think about what the pilot is doing wrong.

 

Blaming the FW and ask to have it changed instead of looking at the pilot is a good way to destroy a sim.  Sadly it's something quite common when it comes to the FW. People have expectations and feel the FW should meet those expectations with little to no work on their end.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Turban

[150GCT_Veltro]

Why does everyone say the 190 is bad?? The 109 feels like the controls are so unresponsive compared to the 190. If you want to fly it well here's a tip! Adjust the "adjustable stabiliser" to 0, (not 0% in game... 0 on the gauge) just play around with that stabiliser, I find it effects the plane dramaticly!

 

This is the default setting, -20%.

[303_Kwiatek]

How you know that Fw A3 is accurate now? Is it a pilot plane and pleasent to fly and do aerobatic? Because you are only flying it straight and level? And suggest others to do it? Pilots account and test say that it was able to do any combat manouvers without stress also sometimes it could stand in dogfight with Spitfire (read Johny Johnson british ace story from combat over Dunkierk). Many players here are used to fly 190 from many years un different sims. For me DCS D9 is far more accurate in flying characteristic it was tested by RL German pilot and flight model is highly accurate. Before some changes in Fw190 A3 it was muchore beliveable in stall characteristic and turn manouvers it only suffered in climb rate. I have flown A3 since relased in BOS and its stall characteristic accelerationband turn abilities was much more like described in flying test. Now is just flying brick not fighter plane.

[beepee]

 

 

Sadly it's easier to say the plane has a problem than think about what the pilot is doing wrong. Blaming the FW and ask to have it changed instead of looking at the pilot is a good way to destroy a sim. Sadly it's something quite common when it comes to the FW. People have expectations and feel the FW should meet those expectations with little to no work on their end.

 

Amen.

 

 

Is it a pilot plane and pleasent to fly and do aerobatic?

 

YES. Yes it is.

 

I have had plenty of hours flying it. Not just in straight lines either.

[Turban]

How you know that Fw A3 is accurate now? Is it a pilot plane and pleasent to fly and do aerobatic? Because you are only flying it straight and level? And suggest others to do it? Pilots account and test say that it was able to do any combat manouvers without stress also sometimes it could stand in dogfight with Spitfire (read Johny Johnson british ace story from combat over Dunkierk). Many players here are used to fly 190 from many years un different sims. For me DCS D9 is far more accurate in flying characteristic it was tested by RL German pilot and flight model is highly accurate. Before some changes in Fw190 A3 it was muchore beliveable in stall characteristic and turn manouvers it only suffered in climb rate. I have flown A3 since relased in BOS and its stall characteristic accelerationband turn abilities was much more like described in flying test. Now is just flying brick not fighter plane.

1)How do you know it's not accurate?

2) I don't only fly straight and level

3)It is capable of any combat maneuvers without stress. That's why I'm having so much fun with it

4)What players are used to having in other sims is irrelevant really. I don't think I need to explain why as it's common sense. (comparing BOS's A3 to DCS's D9 ....? )

5)More believable = easier? Easier=more believable ? 

6)It's not a flying brick. It's hard to understand how someone would call it a flying brick. Maybe someone only used to the 109 abilities at low speed and not willing to consider other approaches would call the 190 a flying brick. 

[Sunde]

I think its important to consider the fact "when flying the 190" that it responds to inputs (especially vertical) ridiculously fast. Its much easier to perform a maneuver that will exceed the AOA, and make you stall. My only issue with the 190 still stands, its roll rate is not that great compared to russian fighters. 

[303_Kwiatek]

Rember harder doesnt mean more realistic. Im sure that before changes i could often do evasion action using some strenhgt of A3 and know that now it is impossible. Kurt Tank was smart guy and pilot also thats why he create a capable fighter plane. I think you are not real life pilot and maby you belive that harder mean more realistic. Belive me before last chnges A3 wasnt easy in manouvers it was also tricky and prone to stall but at least it had acceleration and sometimes was possible to shake opponent from six. Now it is screw plane for masochist who thinks that more harder mean more realistic. And A3 was never easy to fly in BOS like other planes bit last changes just screw it. Very prone to stall and no accelerion mean flying brick now not bucherd bird.

[Turban]

Rember harder doesnt mean more realistic. Im sure that before changes i could often do evasion action using some strenhgt of A3 and know that now it is impossible. Kurt Tank was smart guy and pilot also thats why he create a capable fighter plane. I think you are not real life pilot and maby you belive that harder mean more realistic. Belive me before last chnges A3 wasnt easy in manouvers it was also tricky and prone to stall but at least it had acceleration and sometimes was possible to shake opponent from six. Now it is screw plane for masochist who thinks that more harder mean more realistic. And A3 was never easy to fly in BOS like other planes bit last changes just screw it. Very prone to stall and no accelerion mean flying brick now not bucherd bird.

 

The FW 190 isn't hard to fly. I'm not looking for something hard. On the contrary. The FW 190 feels like holidays. I just don't find it hard. It's in fact the smoothest and one of the healthiest most enjoyable plane to me. Don't pull strange AoAs and don't expect the best performance at low speed and you're good to go.

 

It is possible to loose opponents. Of course it is. It you enter a fight correctly, or just taking the right decisions at the right time, you can absolutely escape. Bullets might catch you but that's something else.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Turban

[DD_Arthur]

I'm with Kwiatek.  The accelerated stall characteristics we have now are simply wrong. 

[Turban]

I'm with Kwiatek.  The accelerated stall characteristics we have now are simply wrong. 

 

 

Based on .... 

[Ace_Pilto]

Based on .... 

 

The behavior of the FM not matching up with universally accepted and well known facts. The accelerated stall in any airworthy aircraft should be recoverable by decreasing the AoA before it develops into a fully fledged spin. Our FM makes this painfully difficult and often impossible (If you don't know what I'm talking about then you're not flying the FM to its' limits) 

 

Nobody in their right mind would mass produce a fighter aircraft that wasn't capable of this, it would be considered an act of treason, sabotage or criminal negligence at the very least.

[Dr_Molem]

Based on .... 

 

And you say they are correct (at high speed), but based on..? 

 

BTW i'm still waiting for a reply from you: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25078-some-data-comparison-between-fw-190-3-vs-yak-1-1942/?p=386528 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Dr_Molem

[MadisonV44]

- Based on the 2015 version before patch 1.104 (at this time It was also described as "most accurate ever" isn't it ? ) 

   It was a tricky plane, difficult to master, with it's unique flying domain. But it was a pleasure to fly. 

- Also based on several pilots feedback : as said Asgar "In every interview FW pilots describe it as a joy to fly... " Now it's a pain.

- Based on the fact that the sky is empty of FW on MP servers and that we all loose in planeset diversity (both red or blue).

 

Two men happy with the new data won't change my mind either and "The FW 190 feels like holidays" sounds like trolling to me.

Putting your mastering and skills on top of the debate is a waste of time. 

 

Data, curves and figures cannot render all the complexity of this plane. The truth lies in between perception and data.

There is a balance to find. 

 

[Turban]

The behavior of the FM not matching up with universally accepted and well known facts. The accelerated stall in any airworthy aircraft should be recoverable by decreasing the AoA before it develops into a fully fledged spin. Our FM makes this painfully difficult and often impossible (If you don't know what I'm talking about then you're not flying the FM to its' limits) 

 

Nobody in their right mind would mass produce a fighter aircraft that wasn't capable of this, it would be considered an act of treason, sabotage or criminal negligence at the very least.

1)Universally accepted ? Well know facts ? Like the fact that the FW had a mean snap stall?

2)All the rest is just... I makes no sense. Just trying to stir people's emotions up. The FW 190 is good and healthy, this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

 

Anyway, no hard facts, no actual recognition of all the actual well know facts, etc, etc..

And you say they are correct (at high speed), but based on..? 

 

BTW i'm still waiting for a reply from you: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25078-some-data-comparison-between-fw-190-3-vs-yak-1-1942/?p=386528 

 

Well, I'm not the one having a problem with the FM. I'm not the one saying it's unflyable. I can fly it. It's not hard. So if people say it's unflyable, they're the one who need to come with the references. If someone can fly it, maybe the plane is not the problem.

 

Oh and to answer your question, how did they get that speed? Because you can make it stall at less than 183...

Edited September 11, 2016 by Turban

[Dr_Molem]

Oh and to answer your question, how did they get that speed? Because you can make it stall at less than 183...

 

Ok, it's not like the 3rd time i ask you to share us the "lower" 1G stall speed (3855 kg) you're talking about.

 

Enough, what at troll.

[Turban]

Ok, it's not like the 3rd time i ask you to share us the "lower" 1G stall speed (3855 kg) you're talking about.

 

Enough, what at troll.

 

Chill. I don't recall you asking me to quote anything ever. Especially 3 times.

[Ace_Pilto]

1)Universally accepted ? Well know facts ? Like the fact that the FW had a mean snap stall?

2)All the rest is just... I makes no sense. Just trying to stir people's emotions up. The FW 190 is good and healthy, this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

 

Anyway, no hard facts, no actual recognition of all the actual well know facts, etc, etc..

 

I've given you hard facts, an accelerated stall only leads to a full spin if the pilot persistently does the wrong thing but obviously you're too much of a fucking idiot and an attention whoring shitposter to admit that that there's a problem here or that there's any merit in any parts of the dialogue on this forum that don't fit your agenda, which I suspect is more about your ego and how cool you look rather in front of your friends than it is about offering any actual feedback that might be of useful assistance in the improvement Fw-190 flight model. 

 

I've patiently spoon fed you the the factual details of the problem regarding the consequences of an accelerated stall being wrong in several posts now and you repeatedly ignore it, so that's it, I'm not wasting any more time on you.

 

Ok mods, send me to the cooler.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ateOFaY8eBw

[GridiroN]

What? Lol

 

This comment only made it better, hahahaha.

 

I'm practicing now actually. It is very fun to fly and right off the bat I could tell it was a whole different beast from the 109. I just keep having to remind myself barely pull back on the elevator. I may need to change some sensitivity options matter of fact lol

 

Why you say that? I love my 109 but I want to get a feel for the 190 and hopefully become adequate with it

In the current game meta, the plane is only performant in the hands of an expert pilot.

 

One observation I've made is the plane doesn't like thin air haha it isn't as easy to spin out below 2000 meters. I guess I'm slowly getting the hang of it but it's still very difficult. Anyone who masters this place has all my respect!

This is historically accurate. The FW lost quite a bit of power at altitude. The sweet spot to me is around 3-4K for all Luftwaffe planes. At this height, Russian planes seem to have difficulty keeping up with the climb-rate of luftwaffe planes in thin air. Below that and Russian planes are just as good, if not better in many aspects than 109s and 190s despite how much the WoL Russians cry about it.

 

Okay so I've spent all day flying the A-3 and I still can't manage to fly it properly without stalling and going into a spin. The only successful tactic I've used has been booming and zooming. Straight in to engage my target and quickly back up. If I turn into a target for a deflection shot I guarantee spin out. I'm not giving up on this bird yet though! It's still really nice to fly but I wasnt expecting it to stall so easily and at least be able to turn fight somewhat.

 

These days, all the Russian kids flying VVS use energy traps and enticement. You can turn with the Russian within reason, but when they pull hard, quit the chase and climb, usually to the opposite direction that he pulled in or he'll roll back and kill you when you climb.  

 

Why does everyone say the 190 is bad?? The 109 feels like the controls are so unresponsive compared to the 190. If you want to fly it well here's a tip! Adjust the "adjustable stabiliser" to 0, (not 0% in game... 0 on the gauge) just play around with that stabiliser, I find it effects the plane dramaticly!

 

Who doesn't do this? 0.2'ish is level flight. 109 goes much faster with it's nose pointed slightly down.

 

In every interview FW pilots describe it as a joy to fly, even more so than the Bf 109. The current flight model on the other hand is torture. That's my only problem with it. It's just not fun to fly it. The old FM we had was really good in my opinion. maybe not perfect but no FM in any flight sim can or will ever be perfect so i take a fun FM over a .5% more correct one any day.

I would have agreed with you maybe a month ago, but what you have to keep in mind is with the amount of combat experience and flight time even the mediocre regulars on TAW and WoL have, we'd all be aces. The Russian teams on either server wouldn't even be half, or even a third as good as they currently are. A 190 would have been a scary match for a real, wartime pilot I'd imagine.

 

Also, many real pilots wouldn't do a lot of the things people do in game to maneuver around because stalling = death and you only get 1 life in real life.

Edited September 11, 2016 by GridiroN

[C6_iceheart]

Actually A3 in BOS is only hit and run plane. It is castrated version only for masochist. So or you are masochist or better leave it and wait and pray that some day developers would bring back balls for these plane. But i would not count on it

     +100