Flying the Fw 190 A-3 is challenging

[LLv24_Zami]

Just checking in... after about 17 pages,

do we have a conclusion yet whether it's challenging to fly the 190 or not?

Negative. Looks like it takes at least another 17 pages.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The short answer is, it is NOT particularly difficult to fly or find success in it. On the other hand , it must be flown with a bit of caution in relation to an exaggerated stall and the flight envelope seems to be limited in comparison with real world quantifiable flight data.

[Urra]

The short answer is, it is NOT particularly difficult to fly or find success in it. On the other hand , it must be flown with a bit of caution in relation to an exaggerated stall and the flight envelope seems to be limited in comparison with real world quantifiable flight data.

I am terrible terrible in it, truth be told, but I love flying it in this sim. Can't explain it. Maybe because it is a bit difficult. Question is would i Like it as much if it was easy to fly ? I'm not sure.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm with you. I take a certain pride in flying it well for the same reasons.

[PatrickAWlson]

Just checking in... after about 17 pages, do we have a conclusion yet whether it's challenging to fly the 190 or not?

 

It is for me, but then again, so are all of the other planes.  I will say that the 190 is pretty well unflyable for me, as opposed to others that are only difficult.  So yes, it is.  

 

There. that was scientific

 

More seriously, it does not seem to fly like I have read.  Not sure what that is worth and I leave the aero engineering to others, but there seems to be at least a bit of physical evidence to back the anecdotal.  As noted earlier, come back in about 17 pages more and we'll see where we are.

Edited October 9, 2016 by PatrickAWlson

[unreasonable]

Hi Crump!

 

Would a RL pilot snap-roll a Fw190 A3, at near full GW ? And if he did, bellow what altitude would he simply not even consider such a maneuver, just in case ?...

 

So, I'll try to do a snap-roll but I can't record it ( unless I re-installed Nvidia Experience ) but will report back the best I can...

 

You can record a track of your flight in game and then later record the screen using FRAPS or similar - if you do not have FRAPS get someone who does to make the film from the track for you.

[Sunde]

 

That excuse wont work this time; look at this guy:  

0:57, he clearly saw the enemy coming, man if only he only wouldve activated the warp roll...wait....yeah

Late war footage, probably an 18 year old boy in the seat of that 190. Does it look like he was pushing the plane to its limits? There is a million variables, but you know... Wait no you dont. 

[Wulf]

Agreed.  Probably some wet-behind-the-ears kid getting shot out of the sky on his first operational flight.  He just appeared completely lost.  Didn't seem to have a clue what to do.  Poor little bastard.  Sickening to watch.

[Feathered_IV]

 

 

 

An FW-190 could dogfight by simply getting out of the way of anything that got on it tail.

 

 

What?  Isn't that like calculating how fast a person could walk in WW1 based on silent films?

[unreasonable]

What?  Isn't that like calculating how fast a person could walk in WW1 based on silent films?

 

In old silent films the film was originally shot using a low fps rate but is shown at a higher rate to smooth out the action - hence the speeded up look.  

 

I do not know what fps the RAF gun cameras used, but presumably the RAE analysts did and would have factored that into their calculations. 

[Guest deleted@50488]

@Crump:

 

I was able to perform good snaps, left better than right at higher power settings, with my Fw190A3 at 85% fuel, full gun load.

 

Rotation was slower than that of an aileron roll.

 

I am using 40% exponential on pitch axis, 10% on roll and 20% on yaw ( which feels more naturally damped by default, as it should compared to the other axis ... in il-2 ).

 

I'll try to learn how to use Nvidia Shadow Play - never used it... and BTW, is there a way to record these maneuvers and export them to a file that can be opened in the sim ?

 

It's always a pleasure to read your posts, just as those of many other really well informed and dedicated users of this and other combat flight simulators, even if sometimes I can't understand half of what you write :-)

Edited October 9, 2016 by jcomm

[Crump]

@Crump:

 

I was able to perform good snaps, left better than right at higher power settings, with my Fw190A3 at 85% fuel, full gun load.

 

Rotation was slower than that of an aileron roll.

 

Post the films please if you can and thanks for doing it. 

 

That is not a snap roll. 

 

It is physically impossible for a snap roll to be slower than an aileron roll.  In a snap roll, the wing is stalled whereas in an aileron roll, the wing is not stalled.

 

 

What?  Isn't that like calculating how fast a person could walk in WW1 based on silent films?

 

Not at all.  Very different in fact. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Crump

[Crump]

The snap roll stands out in this demonstration of aerobatic rolling maneuvers.  Notice it is a violent snap.   Think of a snap roll as horizontal spin.  One wing is stalled, the other is flying and drives the aircraft into a sudden violent roll.

 

The snap roll is the last roll performed.

[unreasonable]

 

 

I'll try to learn how to use Nvidia Shadow Play - never used it... and BTW, is there a way to record these maneuvers and export them to a file that can be opened in the sim ?

 

 

jcomm - you use what BoS calls "Flight recording" - what I referred to earlier as a "track", the RoF term. There is a default key for it in settings-controls-service, I use CapsLock so that I can see if it is on or not using the keyboard light.

 

This records the whole flight while the toggle is on - it is not a screen capture but a record of what happened which means that you can use different camera views while viewing the track.

You can load it later under the "Flight Recordings" section of the main menu. You can edit to get different views and then post that file so anyone can view it in the sim if they DL and stick in their own flight recordings folder.

 

To make video you either take screen capture while in the mission, or while playing the track. Screen captures cannot be played in game but must be posted somewhere as a video eg Youtube. This obviously takes more work for you, but less effort for everyone else!

Edited October 9, 2016 by unreasonable

[Guest deleted@50488]

@Crump: Thx, but I know, see... I've been flying for real for almost 40 yrs now :-)

 

@unreasonable: Got it!  Will try that - Thx a lot!

[Crump]

 

 

@Crump: Thx, but I know, see... I've been flying for real for almost 40 yrs now :-)

 

I know your experience in gliders.  It wasn't for you, it was for readers of the thread. 

[Crump]

Most of the time I would agree with that sentiment, but really that is just a simplification for many situations, as you should hopefully know..you do not always take up an aircraft with full fuel, unless it is a Cessna 172 at sea level 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Yeah...hopefully I know that....flying thousands of passengers around for a major airline....

 

It is a simple fact the FW-190 in BoS should be able to perform a snap roll at full fuel.

 

The blah blah banter about aircraft fuel tanks being full is really kind of banal and gets in the way of the main point.  

 

The flying qualities of the FW-190 in BoS.

 

When the weight and balance say full fuel is authorized for the load condition and the load condition allows for aerobatic flight...then the aircraft can do snap rolls with full fuel.

[Dakpilot]

Just seems to me that doing snap roll at full fuel does not seem to be a very relevant test...unless you have good detailed R/L reports and descriptions of that manoeuvre at full fuel levels  

 

according to what technical data and load data say it may well be possible (i do not know), but was it normal, or is it even a desirable test? I guess in an example you could arrive in a situation of a long range mission with drop tanks and then need to enter into combat at full internal fuel, but i do not have enough info to say whether that would be common

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

Just seems to me that doing snap roll at full fuel does not seem to be a very relevant test...unless you have good detailed R/L reports and descriptions of that manoeuvre at full fuel levels  

 

 

It is pretty relevant when the real aircraft was noted for its ability to perform snap rolls and the model representation cannot.

 

 

 

according to what technical data and load data say it may well be possible (i do not know), but was it normal, or is it even a desirable test? I guess in an example you could arrive in a situation of a long range mission with drop tanks and then need to enter into combat at full internal fuel, but i do not have enough info to say whether that would be common

 

It is not related to anything useful for the aircraft in the game.  It is just an easy litmus test of flying qualities comparing the aircraft to the representation of the aircraft.

[Dakpilot]

It is pretty relevant when the real aircraft was noted for its ability to perform snap rolls and the model representation cannot.

 

 

My only point being was, that is the FW190 A3 noted historically for it's ability to perform snap rolls at FULL FUEL

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

 

 

My only point being was, that is the FW190 A3 noted historically for it's ability to perform snap rolls at FULL FUEL  

 

 

 

 

 

When the weight and balance say full fuel is authorized for the load condition and the load condition allows for aerobatic flight...then the aircraft can do snap rolls with full fuel.

 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

With the fuel located entirely in the fuselage I can not see how fuel level should influrence roll characteristics (or in this case the ability to snapstall).

[Dakpilot]

Mr Crump, you are being obtuse and ignoring my question

 

I have flown many aircraft and done many different manoeuvres, one thing most of them have in common is that they feel different at MTOW and or when full of fuel, in the most general and simplest of terms.

 

I think it is accepted common knowledge that the 190 IRL was good at snap rolls, this i feel everyone will agree on

 

I just would like to know where it is noted for its ability to perform snap rolls at FULL FUEL.

 

perhaps it is language but when one says NOTED for its ability it indicates more than a general ability to complete the manoeuvre, but some form of excellance

 

I just feel that conducting aerobatic tests at full fuel is not necessarily the most logical way to conduct these tests, there probably being little real life comparisons and was likely uncommon IRL 

 

The aircrafts in the sim are not real aircraft and at extremes of performance envelope usually do not react in the same way a real ones does, this is normal computer FM behaviour

 

In an ideal world with unlimited budget a perfect FM stretching to all possible (and impossible) parameters can be achieved, but we don't live in that world, in many cases the ones and noughts of an FM fall down

 

I am not posting here for the sake of argument, but for a more realistic/relevant structure to do tests within, due to the point above

 

after all I would also be happy/desirous to have correct and pleasant flight 'characteristic/performance' for 190, for my own use, and especially if it will lead to happy people and less arguing/anguish on the forums 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 9, 2016 by Dakpilot

[-TBC-AeroAce]

The fuel mass will always effect the moment of inertia but obviously has a bigger effect as the mass is place further from the centre of rotation.

Picture having two cylinders of the same size rotating like a disk. If they have a different mass the denser one will take more energy to roll at the same speed as the less dense one.

For cylinders of equal dimension the mass is directly proportional to the resistance to motion

Edited October 9, 2016 by AeroAce

[JtD]

It's not as much about the rolling performance of the snap roll as it is about the stalling characteristics, which are worse with full fuel than they are with low fuel.

[Crump]

 

 

It's not as much about the rolling performance of the snap roll as it is about the stalling characteristics, which are worse with full fuel than they are with low fuel.

 

Exactly.  It is the most adverse loading condition to perform a snap roll.  One should be possible and rather violent. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

It's not as much about the rolling performance of the snap roll as it is about the stalling characteristics, which are worse with full fuel than they are with low fuel.

 

just thinking here and I may be incorrect but stall always happens at CLmax i.e the higher the mass the higher the stall speed but the force at the stall speed is always the same for any mass because a wing always has a max force it can produce to support the mass. 

 

So if we assume that we have one stalled wing (in a snap situation) that is half the max lift creating the asymmetric force needed for rotation about the roll axis it will be the same for any mass right(the only difference will be the speed or maybe not, look at next para)?

 

So in these cases of different mass the force at stall will be the same but the AOA will be different. 

 

And after that It becomes to much for me to guess as all the other forces happen

[-TBC-AeroAce]

sum 41

[CUJO_1970]

You aren't going to get any videos showing the FW doing a proper snap roll because the FM won't allow it. Try to induce a snap roll and the FW stalls hard over a wing and ends up on it's back, with a tendency to remain in an inverted flat spin. That's it.

 

You will never fully understand the relative limitations unless you fly online against experienced human pilots.FW-190 has as it's weapons in dogfight (1) high top speed and (2) high-speed shallow climb. That's it.

 

You can forget everything you ever read in any book or flight test about quick direction changes, high speed roll rate and superiority in vertical maneuvers when you fly this sim.

[Turban]

Uh..no.

The FW can do a snap roll to the.. right(?) no problem, the other side (left?) has a more jerky recovery afair.

 

Inverted flat spin? Come on..

Edited October 9, 2016 by Turban

[CUJO_1970]

Good.

 

Let's see the video.

[CUJO_1970]

I have hours of online fights recorded from DED Normal server that will demonstrate everything I say is true.

 

I am sick and tired of people denying it.

 

What is best method for video capture? Is it FRAPS and then upload to You-Tube or something? I've never done it before.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I have hours of online fights recorded from DED Normal server that will demonstrate everything I say is true.

 

I am sick and tired of people denying it.

 

What is best method for video capture? Is it FRAPS and then upload to You-Tube or something? I've never done it before.

 

FRAPS is great. nVidia has ShadowPlay support on many of their GPUs as well which uses card hardware to capture gameplay with no performance hit as well. That's pretty excellent. I'm not sure if AMD has an equivalent feature.

[WWChunk]

Uh..no.

The FW can do a snap roll to the.. right(?) no problem, the other side (left?) has a more jerky recovery afair.

 

Inverted flat spin? Come on..

Can you post a video of you doing that, Turban?

[Guest deleted@50488]

I'll do my best to record a video myself, now that I know how to... Then I'll have to get a youtube account because I no longer remember the one I had long ago ... ( should be jcommtube ? )

[coconut]

[Guest deleted@50488]

@coconut:   You took that video right out of my brain :-)

 

That's how it is in my tries yesterday. Exactly!

Edited October 10, 2016 by jcomm

[Crump]

Far from a good controllable snap roll.

[Irgendjemand]

Far from a good controllable snap roll.

this. What I would love to see in this video is the IAS gauge. I am fairly certain the FW as is right now in BOS looses a LOT of energy performing this "stall". 

[unreasonable]

I'll do my best to record a video myself, now that I know how to... Then I'll have to get a youtube account because I no longer remember the one I had long ago ... ( should be jcommtube ? )

 

Good guess