My final pitch because I'm not going to wait a whole decade for the opportunity to arise

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Yes, thats how it should work and it was supposed to work in reality. 

 

My concern is Ai ability to avoid/dodge bombs. In War Thunder aircraft carriers are static, in old Il-2 for the most part they could only sail straight and their only defense was laser accuracy. But in reality commanders obviously observed events and maneuvered their vessels out of torpedo path or bombs. 

 

"Before and during the course of the battle 3—6 June 48 B—17’ s arrived at Midway Island from Hawaii. These planes flying in formations  up to 14 ships, performed 8 missions against enemy units located as far as 570 miles at sea. They dropped 298 bombs in pattern from high altitude. The Japs maneuvered their ships the moment the bombs were away. Their ships’ officers seemed to be using some form of ‘reverse bomb-sight” with data on height supplied by Jap reconnaissance planes flying at the same elevation as the B—17’s." - from "Bomber and fighter tactics in combat" - Midway section -  7 December 1941 to 30 June 1943.

 

"However, almost simultaneously with Henderson’s gallant but futile effort, another American attack began materializing. At 0754 Japanese lookouts spotted aircraft at high altitude, which quickly revealed themselves to be a dozen four-engined American bombers. This was the B-17 force of Lt. Col. Walter C. Sweeney, which had been sent aloft at 0430 to attack Tanaka’s transports, only to be redirected north by Midway as soon as the Japanese carriers had been detected. They were very high up, over 20,000 feet. The Zeros were going to have a devil of a time reaching them all the way up there. Not only that, but the  entirety of the CAP was already engaged in repulsing Henderson’s attack in any case. Altitude, however, worked both ways. Down below, the Japanese captains watched as the bombers came into their runs. Coolly, they waited until each element had dropped, then put the helm over into radical evasive maneuvers. Whether the Americans dropped promptly or even on target was largely irrelevant. The pirouetting warships below still had a good thirty seconds’ worth of air time to play with, meaning that they could be a quarter of a mile in nearly any direction when the bombs finally landed. Even by dropping a “stick” of a dozen or more 500-lb weapons at a time, the odds of securing a hit weren’t good. Not only that, but the cloud cover over Kid Butai frustrated several of their attacks, forcing some aircraft to make numerous runs before finally dropping. Yet, the Americans almost got lucky. In the course of the twenty-minute-long series of runs, both Hiryu and Soryu were bracketed by near misses, to the consternation of the Japanese. In the end, though, the American heavies scored no damage." - "Shattered Sword" by J. Parshall and Tully. 

 

Making Ai capable of noticing various threats and reacting to them (not only as a single ship, but as a formation as well) will be a hard part.

[Ace_Pilto]

Geez Hiromachi, I was having a good giggle until you spoiled my fun... 

 

Some good points here though. I think the best way to deal with heavy flak would be to have it go up in a kind of procedurally generated "Box Barrage" rather than from individual AI gunners so like the ambient flak in RoF but concentrated into a small box. This would minimise the CPU resources needed to pump up a realistic amount of flak while also forgoing the laser accuracy problem, provided that the RNG algorithm can create a plausible intensity of AAA fire. Maybe light AAA, your tracer aimed stuff could use AI though because that would just look odd being aimed randomly so the linked AI battery system would work well for that.

 

Footage seems to show that the consequences of attacking a massed fleet of ships were very dire though so I wouldn't expect to get through unscathed every time, there's always going to be some who get their feelings hurt by being taken down by AAA.

 

I also wouldn't expect to ever hit a ship by using medium altitude level bombing, It's just not plausible since all a good ship captain needs to dodge is a pair of binoculars, a working rudder and half a brain. This is why dive bombers and torpedo bombers were the great ship-killers at Midway (and in the rest of WW2).

 

Also: Perhaps we'll see the MXY7 Okha in action over Okinawa??? That would be something.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Ace_Pilto

[unreasonable]

Box barrages by battery as suggested above sounds good: come to think of it, I do not know why this method was not used for the heavy flak batteries in BoX (and RoF) for that matter: it would look much more convincing that the sniper results we get with individual guns firing as well as being lighter on the cpu and, I suspect, give more credible results. Pom-pom type guns would still need individual aiming, perhaps, but maybe not.

 

As for the ships manoeuvering - I would have thought the AI for this should be relatively easy, at least it is only in 2 dimensions. (Until we get Il-2 Battle of the Atlantic with AI controlled U-Boats ). The main thing is to get them zig-zagging or turning when enemy a/c are sighted so they are not too easy to hit. 

 

All a little OT from the OP - sorry!

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

What should I say about the MTO then :D

[seafireliv]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

After staying on the Eastern Front for 4 years straight, we're going back to the Pacific while never covering the Western Front aside from BoB, and have over half the needed aircraft already developed or is in-progress for an Italian theater. 

 

 

Is my sense making too much, or what does IL-2 have against the USAAF?

 

 

I wouldn`t assume anything much yet except for the Kuban game. These are projections of what they would like to do. Much can change in that time.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I dunno, you just made a pitch to the INVESTORS, as to what your plan is for THEIR money. I very much doubt we don't stick to at least the first two theaters mentioned. And by and large the announcement is favorable with the consumers as well.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'm not buying kuban but I'd pay good money for a stand alone British planeset. Hawker Typhoon, Bristol beaufighter. Also USAAF planeset, P47, P38, B25. Why limit the collector planes to the current in development theatre? It would certainly bring more diversity to the game and increase the interest for those not interested in the Eastern front. Increasing player count and sales.

At the moment I don't see any reason to buy kuban because of the planeset. The map may be interesting but $50-$90 for more of the same aircraft no thanks.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Rolling_Blunder

[Asgar]

more of the same aircraft? P-39, Yak-7, Spitfire A-20? dafuq?

[Rolling_Thunder]

Another 109, another il2, another 190, another 111, another 110. Dafuq?

I can pick the spitfire up as a collectable without shelling out for the theatre which I probably will do

Edited September 10, 2016 by Rolling_Blunder

[Asgar]

and? not a single one of them is the "same" as before. 110 with different engines and armament, He 111 with new defensive armament and bomb loads. and so on. only think that can be called near identical is the 109 G-4 but that's it

[Rolling_Thunder]

More of the same to me. "AND" I'm still not buying it

Edited September 10, 2016 by Rolling_Blunder

[[CPT]milopugdog]

More of the same to me. "AND" I'm still not buying it

Agreed.

Let's just fill the sky with obscure fighters instead of the mainstays of each air force. 

[Feathered_IV]

Agreed.

Let's just fill the sky with obscure fighters instead of the mainstays of each air force.

Which fighters are obscure? I can't think of a single one that is released now or planned for the future that isn't an important type.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Which fighters are obscure? I can't think of a single one that is released now or planned for the future that isn't an important type.

Sorry, I'm not good at conveying sarcasm over text.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ah sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Who mentioned obscure aircraft?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Silky it was actually a good post but it's mostly devolved into stomping feet, red faces and screams of I'm not gonna play with you now!

 

Time to move along.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Silky it was actually a good post but it's mostly devolved into stomping feet, red faces and screams of I'm not gonna play with you now!

Time to move along.

Like the folk whining about getting a G-6 instead of a G-4?

I'm gonna play the game, I have Stalingrad and moscow, looking forward to the core updates I just won't be purchasing Kuban because I'm just not interested in the planeset. If that makes you mad not much I can do about that. Time to move on, don't let the door hit you on your way out. I have enough Soviet and Nazi aircraft. I'm interested in carrier operations and will probably buy midway. Until then...

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm buying it all and I'm all smiles, thanks..........................

[Rolling_Thunder]

I won't be buying it all and I'm all smiles too. Let's hope they make it.

[Luft1942]

I won't be buying it all and I'm all smiles too. Let's hope they make it.

Why aren't you buying it? Just curious will you continue to play BoS/BoM or move unto DCS and Cringe Thunder?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Like the folk whining about getting a G-6 instead of a G-4?

I'm gonna play the game, I have Stalingrad and moscow, looking forward to the core updates I just won't be purchasing Kuban because I'm just not interested in the planeset. If that makes you mad not much I can do about that. Time to move on, don't let the door hit you on your way out. I have enough Soviet and Nazi aircraft. I'm interested in carrier operations and will probably buy midway. Until then...

 

We are not going to get those things unless people understand that they need to invest in the game so that the 777 team can pay their rent, feed their families and continue producing new content for their game.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Why aren't you buying it? Just curious will you continue to play BoS/BoM or move unto DCS and Cringe Thunder?

Like I said earlier, I'm looking forward to the core game updates and will continue to play BoS and BoM.

 

We are not going to get those things unless people understand that they need to invest in the game so that the 777 team can pay their rent, feed their families and continue producing new content for their game.

I've read Jason's posts. I'm not going to buy kuban because I don't want it. My days of pre orders are over. If a company can't finish a product without gambling on the income of pre orders then it shouldnt start the project. It's unfair to the pre order crowd. I've been burned before. And found next to zero empathy from the majority of the community. If my understanding is correct they have the finances available for kuban. Hopefully the sales will be enough for them to make midway. Hope is not going to make me buy something I don't want.

[unreasonable]

May I just add that trying to emotionally blackmail people into buying something they do not want is entirely counter-productive: I wish people would stop it, the "with us or against us" attitude is not a good vibe for the forum.

 

Jason has made a good pitch for a change of direction and new theatres, and many people are justifiably thrilled and I expect most current players will stay with the programme while new ones will, I am sure, be attracted by the Pacific project. But most of those who are not thrilled and have stated as much are simply giving feedback; that does not make them agents of satan.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Sure, but it also does not require a dozen posts over multiple threads to make that point either. There are mature ways to make a point and there are the torches and pitchfork crowd.

[Feathered_IV]

I'm on pre-order standby.  Not because of the Crimea, as its not my first theatre of choice.  I'm in it for the Hs-129, P-39, RoF-like career, Mods-on mode, Spitfire and half a dozen other features that I'm really looking forward to.  Not to mention the shot at a really good Pacific sim that is being offered afterwards.  I read and understood the reasoning behind the choice of the Kuban front, and see it as a necessary step. 

[bzc3lk]

I'm on pre-order standby.  Not because of the Crimea, as its not my first theatre of choice.  I'm in it for the Hs-129, P-39, RoF-like career, Mods-on mode, Spitfire and half a dozen other features that I'm really looking forward to.  Not to mention the shot at a really good Pacific sim that is being offered afterwards.  I read and understood the reasoning behind the choice of the Kuban front, and see it as a necessary step. 

 

 +1

[Ace_Pilto]

Ah sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

 

And opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.

[beepee]

 

 

And opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.

 

 

 

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth - Marcus Aurelius.

[Ace_Pilto]

The creed is the liar is "There is no truth, It's all shades of meaning"

[beepee]

Not sure I understand what you are getting at there Mr Pilto.

 

My quote was in agreement with your statement.

 

(Do you think we have hijacked this thread yet?)

[Ace_Pilto]

Now that I re-read it I see your point. Just didn't expect anyone to agree with me I suppose, it's something I'm not used to.

 

(I think we're firmly in the cockpit with our Ak's and tea-towels as far as this thread goes. Should we make any demands? I've always wanted to see Mexico)

[Fern]

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Sure, but it also does not require a dozen posts over multiple threads to make that point either. There are mature ways to make a point and there are the torches and pitchfork crowd.

There are folk saying "take my money" over multiple threads. I don't see anyone complaining about that. The only torches and pitchforks I see are from the folk unhappy that some folk are saying they won't buy kuban. The "mature" way to deal with that would be to try, and I understand it may be hard for you, to understand their reasoning before trying to drive those folk away. You really aren't doing the developers any favours by alienating part of the community. In fact it's counter to what Jason has been saying.

[Fern]

We are not going to get those things unless people understand that they need to invest in the game so that the 777 team can pay their rent, feed their families and continue producing new content for their game.

Not everyone can drop 80 dollars like its hot. I've got hookers and blow to buy, before I put food on the table for my family, then somehow I have to figure in an 80 dollar game.

 

As far as I can tell, it's kind of like a pyramid scheme. Invest another 80 dollars (granted we are getting a game for our money) and you might see a P-47 or P-51 later down the line. Likely we will never see it because the scheme will collapse before we ever see a return on our investment. Hence why people (Silky) will just leave and keep their 80 dollars.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Fern

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Like the folk whining about getting a G-6 instead of a G-4?

I'm gonna play the game, I have Stalingrad and moscow, looking forward to the core updates I just won't be purchasing Kuban because I'm just not interested in the planeset. If that makes you mad not much I can do about that. Time to move on, don't let the door hit you on your way out. I have enough Soviet and Nazi aircraft. I'm interested in carrier operations and will probably buy midway. Until then...

 

 

There are folk saying "take my money" over multiple threads. I don't see anyone complaining about that. The only torches and pitchforks I see are from the folk unhappy that some folk are saying they won't buy kuban. The "mature" way to deal with that would be to try, and I understand it may be hard for you, to understand their reasoning before trying to drive those folk away. You really aren't doing the developers any favours by alienating part of the community. In fact it's counter to what Jason has been saying.

 

You are a riot. The only one attempting to drive anyone out seems to be you. (Quoted for accuracy.) I challenge you to find a post in this thread which remotely implies that I have encouraged you or anyone else to pack sand. The people who are on board aren't making numerous posts bemoaning the product. Not a single soul on these forums thinks the product is perfect and there were numerous theaters to choose from. They had to pick one which was the best fit for them, seems to be fairly popular, and now they get to see if their business decision was a good one. It was a long term stategic decision based upon their resources and knowledge base. I think Silky makes some very valid points and I have said so further up this chain. We all get that you aren't buying the next installment. The problem is you feel the need to say it several times a day, go on the offensive with others, and act supremely wounded when anyone challenges the idea that maybe most are pretty happy with the overall design arc.

 

WE GET IT.

 

You have every right to vote with your conscience/wallet. As a capitalist I support your initiative. There are popular restaurants I have not returned to for over a decade due to poor customer service. It is a consumer decision. Not sure what you have against others who choose the same and decide to buy in for the present AND the future.

 

I, and others who like the product and direction, have no intention of driving away customers nor is praising a product doing such - in any fashion. The lapses in your logic here are astronomical.

 

Don't worry, this is my last post on the topic. It's not worth it to roll in the mud further. Feel free to rant and be wounded.

 

You can continue to whine and attempt some sort of social blackmail to try and get your way but as I already have children I'm fairly immune to that approach. I'm sure most adults are as well. It sometimes sucks that my seven year old will hate me forever............................or, you know, until she needs a snack.

Edited September 11, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'd also like to point out that folk are reading too much into things. Also seeing what they want to see eg:

a quote from Jason

​"Stuff we'd like to make eventually but not in plan maybe future products:

There are several things we'd like to make that are not in the plan as of now. We always have to make tough choices, but if we can be more successful we can maybe find a way. Some examples.

 

1. Female Soviet Pilot Model.

 

2. Re-vamp of GUI t0 be more thematic.

 

3. Hyperlobby-like interface for COOP Mode.

 

4. Italian Radio Chatter. (possible with sound mod)

 

5. Deep dive into AI decision making."

 

Folk are talking like #3 is going to be implemented pretty soon. that its got the green light. It hasn't. and when the next patch is rolled out without it there will be a lot of questions about why its not there.  Followed by the usual back and forth attack/defense.

 

Jason also said 

''Our hard work plus your support is the only way we can keep going to cover all of WWII.''

Then goes on to say

"The only theater I am not too in love with from a product standpoint is the Western Front. Only because to do it right you need a huge map (half of Europe) and big bomber streams which we can't effectively do to portray the strategic flavor of the theater. It would have to be a tactical map like other sims have had which always make me a little sad. Sometimes I wish FSX/P3D could make the entire Western Front air war since it can model the entire world and we could finally have the Western Front sim we really want."

Pretty much writing it off.

So in reality the whole of WW2 will not be covered. I can understand the limitation of the technology to try and recreate the strategic aspect of western Europe but honestly folks enthusiasm is blinding them from the reality of the actual situation. 

Some folk are their own worst enemies

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Silky it was actually a good post but it's mostly devolved into stomping feet, red faces and screams of I'm not gonna play with you now!

 

Time to move along.

 

 

Like the folk whining about getting a G-6 instead of a G-4?

I'm gonna play the game, I have Stalingrad and moscow, looking forward to the core updates I just won't be purchasing Kuban because I'm just not interested in the planeset. If that makes you mad not much I can do about that. Time to move on, don't let the door hit you on your way out. I have enough Soviet and Nazi aircraft. I'm interested in carrier operations and will probably buy midway. Until then...

Another case of seeing what you want to see

 

You are a riot. The only one attempting to drive anyone out seems to be you. (Quoted for accuracy.) I challenge you to find a post in this thread which remotely implies that I have encouraged you or anyone else to pack sand. The people who are on board aren't making numerous posts bemoaning the product. Not a single soul on these forums thinks the product is perfect and there were numerous theaters to choose from. They had to pick one which was the best fit for them, seems to be fairly popular, and now they get to see if their business decision was a good one. It was a long term stategic decision based upon their resources and knowledge base. I think Silky makes some very valid points and I have said so further up this chain. We all get that you aren't buying the next installment. The problem is you feel the need to say it several times a day, go on the offensive with others, and act supremely wounded when anyone challenges the idea that maybe most are pretty happy with the overall design arc.

 

WE GET IT.

 

You have every right to vote with your conscience/wallet. As a capitalist I support your initiative. There are popular restaurants I have not returned to for over a decade due to poor customer service. It is a consumer decision. Not sure what you have against others who choose the same and decide to buy in for the present AND the future.

 

I, and others who like the product and direction, have no intention of driving away customers nor is praising a product doing such - in any fashion. The lapses in your logic here are astronomical.

 

Don't worry, this is my last post on the topic. It's not worth it to roll in the mud further. Feel free to rant and be wounded.

 

You can continue to whine and attempt some sort of social blackmail to try and get your way but as I already have children I'm fairly immune to that approach. I'm sure most adults are as well. It sometimes sucks that my seven year old will hate me forever............................or, you know, until she needs a snack.

When you quote a quote that has a quote remember to include the quote for accuracy and perspective.

There is no whining on my part just a statement that I wont be buying kuban, maybe the spitfire. You obviously don't like my decision as it clearly has upset you. you mention pitchforks, whining, tantrums please point those out. because I don't see any on my part. I made a suggestion regarding collector sets and all that was focused on was the part, that has upset many folk, my decision not to buy kuban.  I have absolutely nothing against "others who chose the same and decide to buy in for the present and the future." Please point out where exactly you get that from? Your jumping to conclusions is astronomical.

Social blackmail to get my way? Please point that out also.

I'm only worried you wont come back to answer my questions because I am truly interested in how you came to your conclusions and to post all that.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Another case of seeing what you want to see

 

When you quote a quote that has a quote remember to include the quote for accuracy and perspective.

There is no whining on my part just a statement that I wont be buying kuban, maybe the spitfire. You obviously don't like my decision as it clearly has upset you. you mention pitchforks, whining, tantrums please point those out. because I don't see any on my part. I made a suggestion regarding collector sets and all that was focused on was the part, that has upset many folk, my decision not to buy kuban.  I have absolutely nothing against "others who chose the same and decide to buy in for the present and the future." Please point out where exactly you get that from? Your jumping to conclusions is astronomical.

Social blackmail to get my way? Please point that out also.

I'm only worried you wont come back to answer my questions because I am truly interested in how you came to your conclusions and to post all that.

 

 

Your passive aggressive attitude in a lot of your posts is probably what's setting him off.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Okinawa yes Midway grrr yawn

[Rolling_Thunder]

Your passive aggressive attitude in a lot of your posts is probably what's setting him off.

interesting. I will re read what ive posted.