about the bouncing tails

[Sternjaeger]

I've seen some people complaining about the bouncing of tailwheels, and I would like to clarify something: tailwheels DO bounce. The response may vary according to the specific tailwheel design, but when whipped hard to the ground, a tailwheel will bounce back up, and the thing will be amplified by your CG getting out of range. Check out the behaviour of this Mustang

 

[Panzerlang]

What a jolly good idea, a hidden ramp on a runway.

Edited November 26, 2013 by JG3-Siggi

[=LD=Hethwill]

Who thought of placing a bump just before the runway !?  Reckon at landing speed/lift any sudden bump will make any bird kangaroo.

[303_Kwiatek]

Well these video has nothing to do with tailwheel bounce. P-51 on these video got emergency landing due to engine problem he land not on the runway and there was a hillock before then cross runway what casue with higher speed landing a plane bounce. Great respecto to P-51 pilot who not loose his nerver and keep plane nose up position after jump.

 

So these video had nothing to do with tailwheel jumping. IRL most bouncy ladning are casue by mainwheel landing with low nose position. I think tailwheel is not so jumpy like on videos from BOS planes.

[Matt]

I think they toned it down a lot compared to last weeks access. Last week, the bouncing was really a bit extreme, but now it feels alright. So ignore videos from last weeks access.

 

I saw a 109 land on grass and it really bounced around quite a bit. Of course we have snow and runways in BoS, so it's tough to compare.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Matt

[Sternjaeger]

Well these video has nothing to do with tailwheel bounce. P-51 on these video got emergency landing due to engine problem he land not on the runway and there was a hillock before then cross runway what casue with higher speed landing a plane bounce. Great respecto to P-51 pilot who not loose his nerver and keep plane nose up position after jump.

 

So these video had nothing to do with tailwheel jumping. IRL most bouncy ladning are casue by mainwheel landing with low nose position. I think tailwheel is not so jumpy like on videos from BOS planes.

 

look the last bit and how the tailwheel behaves as the balance moves forward. 

[Gort]

All of this was solved long ago by the glorious wizards in naval Aviation - it's called the Tailhook.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

... I can't wait for some tailhook action...

Bring it on team: "Battle of Santa Cruz"!!

[migmadmarine]

Or even better, Korea, I would love to spot targets from a bird dog for some AD-1s, F9Fs, or F-84s. 

[Volkoff]

Could real World pilots look at my LaGG-3 landing video and tell me how I can improve my landing technique?  Thank you all for your consideration of my request. 

 

MJ

 

https://vimeo.com/80342309

[DD_bongodriver]

Or even better, Korea, I would love to spot targets from a bird dog for some AD-1s, F9Fs, or F-84s. 

 

Even better Bearcats and Sea Furies

[Emgy]

This MiG-3 seems to bounce pretty heavily just from taxiing. See around 2 minutes.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Calvamos

[Jason_Williams]

Whoa that Mustang got lucky!

 

Jason

[Tomsk]

Could real World pilots look at my LaGG-3 landing video and tell me how I can improve my landing technique?  Thank you all for your consideration of my request. 

 

MJ

 

https://vimeo.com/80342309

 

So I'm not a real world pilot at all ... in fact I'm not even the most experience sim pilot ... and I haven't tried the LaGG yet in BoS ... but since no one else has answered, I'm going to give my take. To my eyes your approach seems very flat, flat approaches tend to be a bit too fast, which tends to lead to bouncing as you struggle to bleed speed off. I would try coming down at a steeper angle (with full flaps) and less power, that should help control the speed better. Also you can't force the plane onto the runway, it needs to lose enough speed so that it wants to land.

 

This site has some really nice descriptions of different ways to land taildraggers [http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing]. Personally I mostly like to use 3 point landings in normal circumstances. Learn the angle for when all three wheels are on the ground. Then as you come over the end of the runway power gently to idle, and pull the stick back to keep the plane just floating above the ground, bleeding speed. Keep pulling back until you've reached the three point landing angle, and hold it there. Eventually the speed will drop and you'll settle onto the runway in a nice three point landing. But especially in a tail dragger you can't force the plane onto the ground: landing happens when your plane runs out of speed, not when it runs out of altitude.

[=LD=Hethwill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO9mEv5Ve54&t=1m09s

[LukeFF]

Whoa that Mustang got lucky!

 

Jason

 

I imagine that was quite the jolt in the cockpit!

[303_Kwiatek]

So I'm not a real world pilot at all ... in fact I'm not even the most experience sim pilot ... and I haven't tried the LaGG yet in BoS ... but since no one else has answered, I'm going to give my take. To my eyes your approach seems very flat, flat approaches tend to be a bit too fast, which tends to lead to bouncing as you struggle to bleed speed off. I would try coming down at a steeper angle (with full flaps) and less power, that should help control the speed better. Also you can't force the plane onto the runway, it needs to lose enough speed so that it wants to land.

 

You get good point here. Looking recently on BOS videos with landings i see that most landings got very flat aproach on final which is not good for taildragger. My RL aproaches are always with quite steep nose down configuration which i try to keep in steady angle making only correction to speed with throttle. The main problem then is to get correct nose up configuration to get good 3 point landing.  Most bounces happend when your speed is too great and you touch down on main wheels not 3 point configuration.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kwiatek

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

All of this was solved long ago by the glorious wizards in naval Aviation - it's called the Tailhook.

Ahh a tailhook just means you don't have to flair!  That stang pilot was lucky, looks like he only tore up a tire, and probably his underwear too!

[HansHansen]

You really can't compare this video to a normal landing in IL-2. First, as already mentioned, the engine died in short final, so he came a bit short. As a consequence, the left wheel collapses as the p51 touches down a second time, so this wheel is basically locked. To prevent the aircraft from ground looping and thus taking even more damage, right wheel brake is applied as hard as possible without ramming the nose into the ground. That is why the tail is going up.

 

What currently happens in BoS is, that for no apparent reason, the tail is bouncing up to 1m or 1.5m high with no brakes applied und the stick pulled back all the way while taxiing fast on what appears to be a smooth ice or concrete runway.

 

I am sure the developers are already aware of this and try to fix it, because it simply is unrealistic.

 

Regarding the 109 and MiG-3 videos: You can't compare apples with oranges. These are grass fields. They look smoother than they are, of course the planes bounce there, but it should not be worse on an ice or croncrete runway.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Will do. 

 

Comes to my suggestion to devs to allow us different runways during the alpha builds - steel, concrete, grass, snow/dirt.

[DD_bongodriver]

Ahh a tailhook just means you don't have to flair!  That stang pilot was lucky, looks like he only tore up a tire, and probably his underwear too!

 

It looks to me like he broke the left axle

[BeastyBaiter]

You get good point here. Looking recently on BOS videos with landings i see that most landings got very flat aproach on final which is not good for taildragger. My RL aproaches are always with quite steep nose down configuration which i try to keep in steady angle making only correction to speed with throttle. The main problem then is to get correct nose up configuration to get good 3 point landing.  Most bounces happend when your speed is too great and you touch down on main wheels not 3 point configuration.

 

There is a reason for that in BoS. Everyone tried landing traditionally and failed miserably due to being repelled by the ground and promptly crashing. Hence everyone started using super flat approaches and trying to get the sink rate as low as humanly possible to remove the bounce. This means touching down in a 3 point configuration at 0.00001m/s decent rate. But even that doesn't work tbh, you still bounce.

 

I have found that a more normal angle is better with practice but I haven't eliminated bouncing, instead I've accepted it. The bounce might as well be hardcoded in, you will bounce nearly every time regardless of what you do. Things got a lot easier for me when I decided to simply let it bounce it's heart out. I just keep the decent rate low at the end of each bounce and eventually it will stick. Applying full brakes while still in the air and holding them down the entire time certainly helps it stick a bit better too. And no, no tendency to nose over like that.

 

The tail wheel bounce is another issue, it pops up in physics defying ways well below stall speed on smooth surfaces. I've busted a few props now while taxiing at 30km/h down the runway with full up elevator and not using brakes.

Edited November 26, 2013 by =LD=King_Hrothgar

[=LD=Hethwill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGDo95yA8s&t=3m07s

 

Concrete and very very smooth landing actually. Comes down with the pilot then I guess.

[DD_bongodriver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGDo95yA8s&t=3m07s

 

Concrete and very very smooth landing actually. Comes down with the pilot then I guess.

 

More like correct technique, notice it was a perfect 3 point landing which is explicitly recommended.

[Sternjaeger]

Whoa that Mustang got lucky!

 

Jason

 

yep, well up until they were presented with the engine repair bill..  but at least the prop was saved, which is a very costly part itself.

 

I've seen that ramp do the same trick on Sally B once, but being a large-winged beast it handled it much better.

 

Jason, will we see bending parts like in the video? I.e. landing gear legs, fuselages etc..

Edited November 26, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

Could real World pilots look at my LaGG-3 landing video and tell me how I can improve my landing technique?  Thank you all for your consideration of my request. 

 

MJ

 

https://vimeo.com/80342309

 

Hi -

 

I would also say that is a low approach.  

 

Typically (in the US at least), you are taught to setup your approach so that you can hold as many things as constant as possible for as long as possible and provide as much safety as possible.  In your approach, you are really relying on the engine to keep making power and the fact that there are no obstacles on the approach.

 

I would suggest trying to be about 2x that altitude on the downwind leg.  Fly the same pattern - just try that one change.  When you turn to the base leg, you should have full flaps on, and select a pitch angle that gives you ~200-220kph or so with the power to idle or at least a very low setting. As you turn final, aim a little short of the threshold.  Try not to adjust pitch, control your descent with power.  Make those changes small, because these are torquey engines throwing around a big prop, so power changes make you do other stuff too.

 

try to level out about a man's height over the runway.  The power is out, so the airplane will bleed energy and slow down.  Hold the attitude.  As it settles, pitch back slightly to hold the airplane off and let it slow down more just over the runway.  The LaGG, being obstinate, will try to drop one wing.  No big deal if you are low and slow, but if you are too high it can be a problem.  the trick is to have the runway right under the wheels when the plane is done flying.

[Sternjaeger]

Could real World pilots look at my LaGG-3 landing video and tell me how I can improve my landing technique?  Thank you all for your consideration of my request. 

 

MJ

 

https://vimeo.com/80342309

 

Hi Mikha, have you tried using the basic techniques we discussed here? :-)

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2260-so-how-do-i-land-small-tutorial-landing-your-aircraft/

[TheCheese]

Something worthy of notice I think, is the way in which the Russian runways were made. Rather than smooth surfaces like asphalt, such as on roads, they're made out of blocks of pre-formed concrete, as visible in the sim. IIRC, somewhere on the 1CGS channel, the pilot is talking about the I-15(or maybe the MiG-3?), and he says that it actually can't be landed on concrete runways, due to the cracks between the blocks causing too much tailwheel bounce, and so grass fields were a requirement. The poor quality of Russian concrete runways (as the blocks were likely rarely in perfect alignment) is probably to blame for the significant tail-bouncing as told by real pilots. And so I think it's justified in-game on the the concrete runways, at least. Not sure about the non-concrete ones though. Come to think of it, I think some of my smoothest landings were actually on the frozen river...

[Gort]

Or even better, Korea, I would love to spot targets from a bird dog for some AD-1s, F9Fs, or F-84s.

 

That would be cool. Integrating FAC's to a sim in real time, using a human. Has that been done in a sim before?

[SYN_Ricky]

That would be cool. Integrating FAC's to a sim in real time, using a human. Has that been done in a sim before?

 

IIRC that feature was present in Rowan's Mig Alley.

Edited November 27, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[YoYo]

Well these video has nothing to do with tailwheel bounce. P-51 on these video got emergency landing due to engine problem he land not on the runway and there was a hillock before then cross runway what casue with higher speed landing a plane bounce. Great respecto to P-51 pilot who not loose his nerver and keep plane nose up position after jump.

 

So these video had nothing to do with tailwheel jumping. IRL most bouncy ladning are casue by mainwheel landing with low nose position. I think tailwheel is not so jumpy like on videos from BOS planes.

Yep, And breake a wheel after this.