109G/F vs 109E Rudder

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Is anyone able to help me understand why the rudder on the 109E7 is significantly different to that of the F/G series in game?

 

I understand that the F series was a significant change to the 109, but what part of that change triggered the rudder to be able to induce more roll than the ailerons were able to counter? 

 

There was an announcement back in DD120 regarding fixing the stability of the 109's to match closer to that of the 109E which doesn't seem to have made its way into the game yet. Would this proposed fix correct this rudder issue, as well as the stability, which I read as the planes inability to settle after some control input (rubber-banding?), or is the rudder induced roll being stronger than ailerons actually correct and a 'feature' of the later series 109s?

 

The 109E7 is very enjoyable plane to fly in game, especially where rudder input is required.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Tripwire

[ACG_pezman]

I've been waiting for that fix as well. From what I understand the 109E7 is actually the only 109 that is performing close to what it did in real life. The F4 and G2 still need to be nerfed in top speed at alt, roll rate, and stall characteristics. Of course you'd never know the other 109's are broken given the little discussion that it has had on these forums. Everything is about the 190 which is less broken than the 109, but the 109 is broken to the axis' advantage and the 190 isn't. So no one talks about the 109.

 

When they do eventually fix them then we will have to deal with a lot of angry lufties claiming the 109 is broke. Never ending. Meanwhile either all Russian aircraft are perfect as far as FM goes or no one cares about them unless it makes them preform better than they should, then the lufties come out and make noise until it's fixed. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.

[Original_Uwe]

I've been waiting for that fix as well. From what I understand the 109E7 is actually the only 109 that is performing close to what it did in real life. The F4 and G2 still need to be nerfed in top speed at alt, roll rate, and stall characteristics. Of course you'd never know the other 109's are broken given the little discussion that it has had on these forums. Everything is about the 190 which is less broken than the 109, but the 109 is broken to the axis' advantage and the 190 isn't. So no one talks about the 109.

When they do eventually fix them then we will have to deal with a lot of angry lufties claiming the 109 is broke. Never ending. Meanwhile either all Russian aircraft are perfect as far as FM goes or no one cares about them unless it makes them preform better than they should, then the lufties come out and make noise until it's fixed. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.

There are not enough roll eyes emoji's in the world to properly respond to this post.

The [Edited] inferiority complex is literally deafening.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Bearcat

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Is anyone able to help me understand why the rudder on the 109E7 is significantly different to that of the F/G series in game?

The E-7 was modeled way after the other Bf-109s (which infact were among the first aircrafts to be introduced to BoS). My guess is they either used better sources (probably some from CloD) and/or found a better way to calculate the rudder induced roll due to the fact the Bf-110 E reacts very pleasantly and naturally to rudder inputs as well.

 

DD120 suggests that the devs will take a look over all previous FM's in terms of their rudder behaviour and revise them as nessecary. Really looking forward to this change since it's barely possibel to even sideslip in the 109 F/G and Fw-190 ingame.

Edited September 2, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[GridiroN]

There are not enough roll eyes emoji's in the world to properly respond to this post.

The [Edited] inferiority complex is literally deafening.

Agreed. I honestly don't care about the partisanship of flight models, I just want the planes to be accurate. I've given up hope the crazy, unwarned stall on the 190 is going to be changed, but as I've said in other threads, people have found sources that the Yak's climb rate is significantly higher in game that it should be, and many people seem to believe the Lagg is maintains too much energy. The bf110's wings are too fragile. I mean there's issues everywhere, if it's proven the 109 needs a nerf, that's fine, but the constant Russian complaining the 109 is imbued with the spirit of Hitler himself is getting a bit nuts, especially considering the irony is that the Soviet team has all the best pilots and those Soviet planes are perfectly affective. Edited December 22, 2016 by Bearcat

[Cybermat47]

There are not enough roll eyes emoji's in the world to properly respond to this post.

The commie inferiority complex is literally deafening.

What on Earth makes you think he's a Communist?!

[III/JG2Gustav05]

I've been waiting for that fix as well. From what I understand the 109E7 is actually the only 109 that is performing close to what it did in real life. The F4 and G2 still need to be nerfed in top speed at alt, roll rate, and stall characteristics. Of course you'd never know the other 109's are broken given the little discussion that it has had on these forums. Everything is about the 190 which is less broken than the 109, but the 109 is broken to the axis' advantage and the 190 isn't. So no one talks about the 109.

 

I dont understand why you claim G2's speed at alt needs to be nerfed? the value in game matches the real world test result perfectly.

[III/JG2Gustav05]

When they do eventually fix them then we will have to deal with a lot of angry lufties claiming the 109 is broke. Never ending. Meanwhile either all Russian aircraft are perfect as far as FM goes or no one cares about them unless it makes them preform better than they should, then the lufties come out and make noise until it's fixed. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. [/quote

You actually put yourself in peoples ignore list if you express your opinion by this way.

[Willy__]

 

 

You actually put yourself in peoples ignore list if you express your opinion by this way.

 

My ignore list never been bigger   

[ACG_pezman]

 

And the Lufties attack!

 

Only one of the replies after mine even addressed the OP's question. 

[Holtzauge]

Without pointing fingers, some who have been posting here and in other places consistently pop up to "explain" why the status quo is right or something needs to be nerfed with the FM or DM to the advantage of red or blue, never from the other perspective. Seeing the same posters consistently whining about how bad the posters from the other side are or labeling people Luftwhiners or similar is getting tiresome because truly, both red and blue planes are over- or underperforming in some areas.

[303_Kwiatek]

 

And the Lufties attack!

 

Only one of the replies after mine even addressed the OP's question. 

 

I think you are just not orientied in situtation.  IN BOS  Yak-1 and Lagg-3  overperforming at medium to high alt a lot ( expecially in maximum speed)  from German planes only 109 F-4 overperforming in speed at higher alts   -  there were many test and other topics which proved these.  These was never corrected in BOS.  But is not nessesery to trash these topic which is about different thing.

 

Yes developers mentioned that they want correct rudder effect and jumpy behaviour of late 109 according to 109 E flight model which was developed later.  I really found that 109 E and Bf 110 rudder work much more close to RL then other 109s.  Unfortunately there is no news from developers about these

[BlackBadger]

I too have been waiting for the 109 rudder and wobbliness fix since DD 120. Every new patch I update, fly for 30 minutes and then don't touch BoS until the next patch. 

 

As with other things that were corrected, the fix will probably get here when no one expects it ( like the time compression ) Until then, you're likely to hear from the forum old guard that it's just in your head and you don't have your curves and sensitivity set up right :D

[III/JG2Gustav05]

I think you are just not orientied in situtation.  IN BOS  Yak-1 and Lagg-3  overperforming at medium to high alt a lot ( expecially in maximum speed)  from German planes only 109 F-4 overperforming in speed at higher alts   -  there were many test and other topics which proved these.  These was never corrected in BOS.  But is not nessesery to trash these topic which is about different thing.

 

Yes developers mentioned that they want correct rudder effect and jumpy behaviour of late 109 according to 109 E flight model which was developed later.  I really found that 109 E and Bf 110 rudder work much more close to RL then other 109s.  Unfortunately there is no news from developers about these

We should have 1 thing to keep in mind is that all German data about F4 performance we quote is with the engine at Kampfliestung mode. F4 we have in this game gets its engine notliestung mode cleared. Kampfliestung setting corresponds 78% throttle in this game.  but most people fly it and test it at 84% throttle. I think that is the reason why people think it is overperforming.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

To the OP

I don't remember where but I read on the forum that the devs want to do additional research on induced roll and how it is modeled in game vs real life.

I find that the excessive induced roll isn't something limited to the 109 but to a few other aircrafts as well, so it would make more sense to finish this research and tweak the physical engine before revamping the 109F/G flight model. 

 

That's might be a reason why the 109 fix is still pending for now. 

[Kurfurst]

Is anyone able to help me understand why the rudder on the 109E7 is significantly different to that of the F/G series in game?

 

I understand that the F series was a significant change to the 109, but what part of that change triggered the rudder to be able to induce more roll than the ailerons were able to counter? 

 

Perhaps its not the rudder but the ailerons. Those were changed significantly on the F-K series compared to the Emil. Apparantly the Emil's ailerons were more effective.

[303_Kwiatek]

We should have 1 thing to keep in mind is that all German data about F4 performance we quote is with the engine at Kampfliestung mode. F4 we have in this game gets its engine notliestung mode cleared. Kampfliestung setting corresponds 78% throttle in this game. but most people fly it and test it at 84% throttle. I think that is the reason why people think it is overperforming.

Its rather because irl F4 wasnt such fast at alt - rl chart for 1,4 ata was probably without compresibility error reduction so more accurate would be ab. 650 kph at rated alt. But vvs planes like Yak1 and Lagg3 overperform much more at high alt then F4. Some other planes are more accurate but then relative performance is not accurate

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

To the OP

 

I don't remember where but I read on the forum that the devs want to do additional research on induced roll and how it is modeled in game vs real life.

I find that the excessive induced roll isn't something limited to the 109 but to a few other aircrafts as well, so it would make more sense to finish this research and tweak the physical engine before revamping the 109F/G flight model. 

 

That's might be a reason why the 109 fix is still pending for now. 

 

Makes sense. Especially as the impact of such a change would be fairly significant.

 

 

 

Perhaps its not the rudder but the ailerons. Those were changed significantly on the F-K series compared to the Emil. Apparantly the Emil's ailerons were more effective.

 

Very interesting point! I wonder if there are any data that would support this?

Thanks for the on topic replies.

 

[303_Kwiatek]

Emil got squared wing tips not rounded which improve roll rate a bit

[Kurfurst]

Very interesting point! I wonder if there are any data that would support this?

Thanks for the on topic replies.

 

Several pilot's testimonies flying restored 109Es and Gs, they definitely say the Emil's roll was better and very 'brisk' at low-medium speeds, the peak roll rate should be about 120 degrees / sec. IIRC there is no report with a scientific explanation for this by qualified engineers, but since the F had a complete redesign of the wing and its lift characteristics, that included rounded wingtips further from the ailerons (squares I believe usually work better due to the lift distribution) and the replacement of plain type ailerons on the 109E with Frise type ailerons on the 109F. From these various sources and data I read out that improvement of high speed aileron effectiveness of the F-K ailerons was the goal.

 

Generally the reason I am suspecting the ailerons is because those changed quite a bit with the F redesign (basically 109 v2.0), while the rudder AFAIK pretty much remained the same, bar losing the supporting struts.

Edited September 13, 2016 by VO101Kurfurst

[150GCT_Veltro]

Is my hope for G4 release. Ok, it will be a clone of G2 but at least it could be released with the "jumpy behavior" corretted, as for F/G.

 

 

9. Correct 'jumpy' behavior of Bf 109 F4, G2 and F2 to resemble E7 behavior and check other planes;

Edited September 13, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 there is no report with a scientific explanation for this by qualified engineers, but since the F had a complete redesign of the wing and its lift characteristics, that included rounded wingtips further from the ailerons (squares I believe usually work better due to the lift distribution) and the replacement of plain type ailerons on the 109E with Frise type ailerons on the 109F.

 

I remember it was said somewhere that the major factor was not really the square wingtips but the fact that on the Emil (and the 190), the ailerons run almost to the very end of the wings and interacts with the wingtip vortexes, and this improves quite noticeably the roll rate. This is not the case with the rounded wingtips of the F and G series. 

 

Same thing with the spitfire, the cliped wings help a bit by reducing the roll inertia but the real improvement comes from the placement of the ailerons to the wingtips. 

[Luger1969]

Update from todays question to dev responses guys:  

 

Chandalier1969, on 25 Aug 2016 - 22:46, said:

Hi guys. Any news/eta on this as per DD120: 9. Correct 'jumpy' behavior of Bf 109 F4, G2 and F2 to resemble E7 behavior and check other planes;

it will be in 2.004. Look for DD 131.

[BlackBadger]

Update from todays question to dev responses guys:  

 

Chandalier1969, on 25 Aug 2016 - 22:46, said:

it will be in 2.004. Look for DD 131.

 

I wish you are right. But looking at DD 131, the word "jumpy" is mentioned 4 times but always in connection with landing gear and ground behavior.

 

Whereas DD120 mentions:

 

9. Correct 'jumpy' behavior of Bf 109 F4, G2 and F2 to resemble E7 behavior and check other planes;

 

I always understood it to mean behavior in air. What if they meant ground handling instead?

 

We'll have to wait to see what 2.004 brings. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by hnbdgr

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Well, while in the air the E7 feels really better than the others 109, on the ground I didn't noticed much difference in handling. 

so if they speak about ground handling I don't see what they have to correct. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Yeah, can't say I had noticed any difference in the ground handling/landing either.

[Willy__]

Thats because the changes will come with the next patch.

[Gruber-H]

I really hope they're referring to the elevator wobble, not landing gear bounce. We will indeed have to wait.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Thats because the changes will come with the next patch.

 

You misread  , we were saying that there is no difference in ground handling between the Emil and the other 109s.

so the "jumpy" behaviour must be related to in-flight wobbliness because there is nothing to correct on the ground.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Whilst no fix in 2.004, Today's developer diary indicated the team performed some testing on rudder induced roll and sideslip etc.  It didn't really indicate what the findings were - other than some planes were correct, others not.
 
Using google translate on the russian forums, I came across this comment from AnPetrovich
 
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5008-136-ya-chast-dnevnikov-razrabotchika/?p=461876

 

 

 The difference is, but small, which is very similar to the behavior of the same Messer with the same angle of V-shaped wings (which, basically, following the reaction and determines the roll). But, as I said above, socat, as well as other aircraft on which I flew, require less expense on the handle while holding the aileron slip than the aircraft in our game. It has long been known, and as I wrote above - are working on it.

 

Followed by the following posts -

 

 

 

that is, a time will be less effective or ailerons - something like Emilki ... well, maybe a little faster?

That will be corrected, and how (and when) - it is too early to speak and to draw conclusions.

 

 

Google translate sounds promising that there is a potential fix still on the way? Or has google translate missed the mark?

Edited October 20, 2016 by Tripwire

[BlackBadger]

Whilst I applaud the overall change of direction the devs have taken (and still am hopeful for the future), currently not really looking to play the game until these issues are fixed. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by hnbdgr

[Kling]

I too have been waiting for the 109 rudder and wobbliness fix since DD 120. Every new patch I update, fly for 30 minutes and then don't touch BoS until the next patch.

 

As with other things that were corrected, the fix will probably get here when no one expects it ( like the time compression ) Until then, you're likely to hear from the forum old guard that it's just in your head and you don't have your curves and sensitivity set up right :D

Exactly my situation as well. Im waiting for the "jumpy" behaviour fix...

[Asgar]

maybe you should fix your controls instead. 109 FM is fine

[Kling]

maybe you should fix your controls instead. 109 FM is fine

Read post again and give your brain a chance before you respond.

 

The 109E4 does not suffer from this since it according to the devs has a newer technology of FMs. They have already mentioned that they will fix the other 109s to behave more like the 109E4.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Kling

[Asgar]

cool we're getting the E-4? i haven't even seen that announcement. 

[BlackBadger]

Obviously he meant E-7. And yes what he's saying is correct. E-7 has a better/more stable FM than the F or G and the dev's acknowledged this and said this would be fixed. AFAIK it's not been fixed. 

 

 

maybe you should fix your controls instead. 109 FM is fine

 

Yeah ok. Look bud. It's going to get fixed it's just a matter of time. Our dissatisfaction is with the fact it's taking so long.

 

Your attitude is similar to the folks who used to argue that the 2x max time compression was a great feature. I.e. if you're happy to settle for less with either issue, good for you. No need to make up fairy tales about joystick and curve settings to cover up for problems with FM stability. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by hnbdgr

[Asgar]

better than not trying. my curves are set correctly and i have no problem. especially going as far as saying "a patch came out,  i tried the FM it was [Edited] and i'm not playing till the next patch" 

that's childish 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Bearcat

[BlackBadger]

I've bought the game, I've played it. It's not up to my expectations atm. I believe* it will one day be to my expectations and I will play it more often then. Until these issues are fixed there's no point in me spending more time playing it. I don't see what you find childish about that. 

 

EDIT: to clarify * I'm led to believe thanks to DD updates

Edited October 21, 2016 by hnbdgr

[150GCT_Veltro]

This fix is REALLY needed for F/G. Good news from Petrovich. I hope it could be ready for G4 release in December.

[BlackBadger]

Hi all, I'm away from my main computer until after new year's. Can anyone check if this has been fixed?