So I got the FW 190

[Turban]

Well well well !!

 

Big day I got the FW 190. 

 

I've actually always been a big LW fan. For some reason I ended up enjoying flying VVS more on BOS. Something about WOL russian team being more fun and engaging. I mostly fly on WOL, rarely solo, so team spirit matters. Also the Mig 3 is sexy AF. I feel like I'm flying a Hot Road. The sound, the looks.. 

Anyway. Didn't feel one bit in a hurry to get a german plane. But now I got the FW. That's what sales are for I guess.

 

I created this thread because, well, the others are locked or simply have their own thing going on.

 

Obviously this thread is about giving an opinion on the FW 190, since I'm supposed to be a big LW hater and pro FW 190-nerf.

 

We'll see how it goes. I will fly the next WOL tour (1month) with the FW 190. 

 

My first impression : Coming from the Mig 3, the FW 190 is a sweet lamb, it flies like a dream. Performances are very good. Weapons are ludicrous. It takes hits like no other fighter.

 

Only thing I struggle with is the view. I'll have to adapt to those bars. Not having a track Ir makes bars the bane of my existence. It'll be ok I'm sure.

 

I could already give an opinion now, but I feel it'll be better to give it with a full tour under my belt. 

 

I think it will turn out that the FW 190 is far from being the unflyable mess people claim it to be.

 

I'll be back 

 

 

[Dr_Molem]

If it flies like a dream as you claim, so how would be an correctly modelled 190, lol.

[Dr_Molem]

read carefully the Bible while with you go dogfighting on this FW

 

I don't think he's going to dogfight with it, he will more "BnZ only" because that's what the plane was "made for". 

[Fern]

Locked. You said FW-190.

 

 

 

But seriously though, the more I read archive reports it doesnt sound like it was a good turn fighter that everyone argues. So maybe the Devs knew what they were doing.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf

 

I think people are upset now about the unrecoverable stall. " The FW-190 stalls with very little warning, but recovers easily." Wait til you get one of those, you'll die flipping end over end.

[Dr_Molem]

But seriously though, the more I read archive reports it doesnt sound like it was a good turn fighter that everyone argues. So maybe the Devs knew what they were doing.

 

What ?

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

Locked. You said FW-190.

 

 

 

But seriously though, the more I read archive reports it doesnt sound like it was a good turn fighter that everyone argues. So maybe the Devs knew what they were doing.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf

 

I think people are upset now about the unrecoverable stall. " The FW-190 stalls with very little warning, but recovers easily." Wait til you get one of those, you'll die flipping end over end.

 

VERY INTERESTING THX!!!

[NachtJaeger110]

This report reminds me very much of our 190 in game.

It repeats "no-warning stall", "stall without warning" and "tends to stall sharply".

Also, when following tight loops of a Corsair or Hellcat, "it will stall out".

It would be interesting to compare the post stall behavior explained in the report to the in game 190. I'll try that this evening.

 

I also find the ffb effects in the game 190 very interesting, especially after the last update.

I use a MS Sidewinder FFB 2 and compared to the 109 the 190 feels much, much lighter.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

But seriously though, the more I read archive reports it doesnt sound like it was a good turn fighter that everyone argues. So maybe the Devs knew what they were doing.

 

 

Here is the view of Captain Eric Melrose "Winkle" Brown, CBE, DSC, AFC, Hon FRAeS, RN regarding the Fw 190A.

"As far as the RAF was concerned and in eradicating something of the awe in which the Focke-Wulf had come to be held by Allied pilots. It was concluded that the Fw 190 pilot trying to “mix it” with a Spitfire in the classic fashion of steep turning was doomed, for at any speed -even below the German fighter's stalling speed- it would be out-turned by its British opponent . Of course the Luftwaffe was aware of this fact and a somewhat odd style of dogfighting evolved in which the Fw 190 pilots endeavoured to keep on the vertical plane by zooms and dives, while their Spitfire-mounted antagonists tried everything in the book to draw them on to the horizontal. If the German pilot lost his head and failed to resist the temptation to try a horizontal pursuit curve on a Spitfire, as likely as not, before he could recover the speed lost in a steep turn he would find another Spitfire turning inside him! On the other hand, the German pilot who kept zooming up and down was usually the recipient of only difficult deflection shots of more than 30 deg. The Fw 190 had tremendous initial acceleration in a dive but it was extremely vulnerable during a pull-out, recovery having to be quite progressive with care not to kill the speed by 'sinking' ”

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

This report reminds me very much of our 190 in game. It repeats "no-warning stall", "stall without warning" and "tends to stall sharply". Also, when following tight loops of a Corsair or Hellcat, "it will stall out". It would be interesting to compare the post stall behavior explained in the report to the in game 190. I'll try that this evening. I also find the ffb effects in the game 190 very interesting, especially after the last update. I use a MS Sidewinder FFB 2 and compared to the 109 the 190 feels much, much lighter.

 

Yes the report mentions this several times, but you leave out the very important part, which is that it occurs "near stalling speed"

 

The 190 in game reminds me of that other report I read in which the 190 stalls:

 

- when the rudder is touched

- during high speed turns

- when the freaking landing gear is extracted

 

oh wait no that report doesn't exist...

Edited August 30, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Turban]

 

I use a MS Sidewinder FFB 2 and compared to the 109 the 190 feels much, much lighter.

 

I use it too. long live the FFB2

 

The FW had lighter commands IRL than the 109 especially at high speed which was something pilots really, really enjoyed. I guess it translates well in the game

[Turban]

Yes the report mentions this several times, but you leave out the very important part, which is that it occurs "near stalling speed"

 

 

Please provide evidence that the FW would only stall around stalling speed. If you can't please refrain from posting ""facts""".

 

So far the stalling characteristic seemed completely fine. I was expecting a lot worst.

 

I'm actually enjoying it very much. It has quite a lot to offer and the drawbacks are barely noticable, esp. coming from the Mig.

 

I do have a problem with the view, damn bars and that tint on the front windscreen panel somehow makes planes disappear. Little things that'll be worked out. 

 

Looking very much forward to taking it on WOL. It's feels like a great plane to go into a fight. Great performance, confortable, dependable, etc. 

 

 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Sorry Turban, but ususlly i dont let anyone but my mom tell me under which conditions to voice my opinion a) and b) I don't provide evidence to statements I haven't made. Maybe you should check the logic behind my post!

 

Having said that, enjoy your 190 tour!

Edited August 30, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Locked. You said FW-190.

 

 

But seriously though, the more I read archive reports it doesnt sound like it was a good turn fighter that everyone argues. So maybe the Devs knew what they were doing.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf

 

I think people are upset now about the unrecoverable stall. " The FW-190 stalls with very little warning, but recovers easily." Wait til you get one of those, you'll die flipping end over end.

 

 

The only complain I have about the current Wulf is that it gives TOO MUCH pre-stall warning. Noticeable buffeting occurs too early before the actual stall. So the plane looses some turning potential. 

 

Other than that, I love the bird. 

[Holtzauge]

Gee, reading this thread I get these strange flashbacks to the fishing trip I had this summer which is really weird seeing this is all about the Fw-190.......

 

Anyway, glad you enjoy the Fw-190 Turban! Welcome to the dark and sinister blue side!

[Irgendjemand]

Heh, lets see how long he enjoys it ROFL.

When he is honest his statement at the end of his tour will be something along the lines of JimmyBlondes. HE was honest about his experiences and as far as i remember before flying it he also argued everything would be ok and afterward he agreed the thing is totally porked.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Holtzauge]

Yup, will be interesting to follow this thread and see if it turns into an objective evaluation and review of the Fw-190 or a fishing expedition.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It won't...........

[Turban]

Yeah, we'll see. I'm very much looking forward to taking it online

 

So far it feels like upgrading from a Suzuki Samourai to a Range Rover.

 

Please stay away from fishy humor, it's not why i created this thread, I intend to keep it clean and focused on the plane and the flying. If you feel witty go share it with someone who will actually enjoy it. this is an aviation forum, not facebook, so stick to the point, thank you

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I have my doubts as to your ability to be objective about this aircraft but if you are serious, besides flying it on the expert server where it is all about the bounce, I challenge you to come fly with me and my mates over on normal. We can fly together on TS. We can fly on the duel server as well and do some follow the leader and head to head stuff too. Try using the aircraft in a maneuver fight. I think you will not be so enthralled with the stall characteristics then.

 

As stated several times. She does everything well except turn.She should absolutely have a vicious stall at low speed and should snap roll at speed when commanded. I have yet to see where anyone states she should just wing over at speed, uncommanded, and then inverted flat spin for 1000m or more for the recovery. I have no problems finding success in the airframe but the accelerated stall at mid to high speed is abysmal and ahistorical. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Monostripezebra]

not judging any "realism"... but the FW190 is useable and among the best, if not THE best, planes in game if you know how to use her. I mean, the real machine was a 3tonne monster.. it was never designed for much turnfighting.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Agree, she is exceptional in most respects.

 

Doesn't mean the stall characteristics are accurate though.

 

Here's my quote from another thread:

 

"Fix the accelerated stall and she'd be the world beater we've always read about. You never hear me complain about speed, roll or climb rate like most and I never will. Reset the stall to the way it was before the most recent FM change on her, which seemed accurate before, and you'd cut the complaints by half or more. I still fly her and have plenty of success but the accelerated stall is pretty brutal." 

Edited August 31, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[L3Pl4K]

Turban, maybe you and a comrade can test how "good" is the diveperformance of 190 compared to the other fighters in this game.

[Ace_Pilto]

Yeah, we'll see. I'm very much looking forward to taking it online

 

 

01SEP16...

 

And there the thread ended. The last, optimistic words of brave Turban before his illusions were firmly dispelled.

[Quax]

I watch MrX 190 videos and have the feeling it is the ueber plane of the sim. Ok, i get shot down in it, but my problem is, all fighters I fly, have a worse FM as the plane of my opponents on my six

Edited September 1, 2016 by Quax

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

I watch MrX 190 videos and have the feeling it is the ueber plane of the sim. Ok, i get shot down in it, but my problem is, all fighters I fly, have a worse FM as the plane of my opponents on my six

 

MrXs Videos were made before the patch, which many people are (amongst other things) upset about.

 

After the patch AFAIK no more 190 Videos were made by him. Maybe he doesn't fly it anymore

Edited September 1, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Irgendjemand]

MrXs Videos were made before the patch, which many people are (amongst other things) upset about.

 

After the patch AFAIK no more 190 Videos were made by him. Maybe he doesn't fly it anymore

This. If theyd just patch it back to previous FM and correct ONLY the climbrate to post patch state it would be perfect.

OK, delete the bars and THEN its perfect and most complaint would be silenced i believe.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Aap]

Before the previous patch about 20% of Fw190 pilots felt the FM was fine. Then they reduced the fineness ratio in a patch. Now only 10% of Fw190 pilots feel it is fine.

[Trinkof]

Before the previous patch about 20% of Fw190 pilots felt the FM was fine. Then they reduced the fineness ratio in a patch. Now only 10% of Fw190 pilots feel it is fine.

... And none of them actually flew the 190, beside on other games with tweaked / moded FM, with a game engine taking into account far less parameters...

 

Just read the flight report posted above, no doubts it is talking of the 190... And it looks like the bird we have...

 

But... X-Files... The truth is elsewhere

Edited September 1, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Dr_Molem]

... And none of them actually flew the 190, beside on other games with tweaked / moded FM, with a game engine taking into account far less parameters...

 

Just read the flight report posted above, no doubts it is talking of the 190... And it looks like the bird we have...

 

But... X-Files... The truth is elsewhere

 

 

Looks like it's our 190, for sure. 

[Matt]

Stall speed is too high (no matter what flap setting), but the last time i heard, some people on the Russian forums actually sent them documents to proof that. So i'm hoping that they fix that with the coming updates. But even then you won't outturn Yaks with it.

 

Apart from that, the Fw 190 is probably the most accurate FM right now in BoS/BoM.

[Trinkof]

 

Looks like it's our 190, for sure.

How many 190, how many spits, altitude of the combat, radar cover in the area etc... Annectote prove nothing ..scientific flight and test report from test pilot seem more solid, like the one posted above.

 

Edit : which Fw, which version of the spit etc.... ?

 

Answering with annectote will never help improve a FM

 

As for the stall, with a stick extension or reducing the pitch axis sensitivity with JS external program... No problem.

 

Lightness of stick due to electrical commands will never be represented in a flight Sim, this is not necessarily a FM issue, but a hardware issue. In flight Sim, the more "easy with the stick" the plane was IRL, the more it will be prone to stall in a flight Sim.... Sad, but unsolvable.

Edited September 1, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Irgendjemand]

Stall speed is too high (no matter what flap setting), but the last time i heard, some people on the Russian forums actually sent them documents to proof that. So i'm hoping that they fix that with the coming updates. But even then you won't outturn Yaks with it.

 

Apart from that, the Fw 190 is probably the most accurate FM right now in BoS/BoM.

You couldnt do that pre patch. And i at least am totally fine if i cannot outturn a YAK in a Focke. I just want it to be awesome in BnZ and have the ability to quickly dive away in case something goes wrong.

But you cant even dive away in the FW right now. Friend and I did divetests. Even if you try and dive shallow from 5k to groundlevel. On all this distance I was able to gain like 300m separation after we started diving with even energylevel. I even used emergencypower - so way to get proper separation. Also pre patch you were very good able to pull lead from a VERY fast attackrun. If you try to pull lead now its far less possible. Feels like elevatorauthority has become much worse.

I really wish theyd just give us the old focke back with the climbrate we have now. It wasnt an uber plane but when flown properly you really had very good chances to survive. Today when i go on WOL in a Focke I either run all the time until I reach an airfield (yes the guys are able to chase you and you wont be able to create any separation to speak of) or I just die. Survivability ina an Emil is better. There you can at least help yourself with skill and good TnB maneuvering.

[Irgendjemand]

 

 

Lightness of stick due to electrical commands will never be represented in a flight Sim

If you wanted you could translate that with some sort of a responsivenesscurve.

In a real FW you would have to just yank the stick while to reach the same amount of aeilroneffect in a LA5 for example you would have to press the stick for a longer time to the left/right.

Linear responsivenesscurve for FW and exponential for other aircraft that dont have electrical actuates control surfaces if that makes sense.

[L3Pl4K]

But you cant even dive away in the FW right now. Friend and I did divetests. Even if you try and dive shallow from 5k to groundlevel. On all this distance I was able to gain like 300m separation after we started diving with even energylevel. I even used emergencypower - so way to get proper separation.

  If you diving from 5k to groundlevel with the real with real 190 against 109F4, you should gain min. 700-800m separation. And you do not need emergencypower, combatpower is enough.

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=24&L=1

Edited September 1, 2016 by L3Pl4K

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Just read the flight report posted above, no doubts it is talking of the 190... And it looks like the bird we have...

 

Not entirely wrong, but let´s do a little thought experiment. Let´s take the WTF 190 from before the patch and apply the report to it. Would you say it were any different and totally off? Even in the old FM it did all the things that are mentioned in the report. Yet you claim it´s as it is modeled NOW.

 

And be honest, do you really fly the 190 that much?

 

I think Irgendjemand and Murf are flying it a lot. I know what Murf thinks of it. Here´s some more of what I and I think most other frequent 190 pilots can relate to:

 

 

 

Today when i go on WOL in a Focke I either run all the time until I reach an airfield (yes the guys are able to chase you and you wont be able to create any separation to speak of) or I just die.

 

How does that fit into the actual reports?

 

So you tell me which flight model seems more reasonable

Edited September 1, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Trinkof]

If you wanted you could translate that with some sort of a responsivenesscurve.

In a real FW you would have to just yank the stick while to reach the same amount of aeilroneffect in a LA5 for example you would have to press the stick for a longer time to the left/right.

Linear responsivenesscurve for FW and exponential for other aircraft that dont have electrical actuates control surfaces if that makes sense.

I have a special setting for the FW on my saitek software,which work awesomely well, working also to completely delete what people call wobbling

 

-Every move I make with my stick is reduced to 80% in game. I cannot reach full deflection, but I really do not see any inconvenience, as at high speed I will compensate with the stabilizer. It really drastically improve the "twitchy" feeling some people have on the sensitive airplane

 

-it do pretty much the same thing as a stick extension, exept it deny the use of the latest degree of deflection  

[Trinkof]

Not entirely wrong, but let´s do a little thought experiment. Let´s take the WTF 190 from before the patch and apply the report to it. Would you say it were any different and totally off? Even in the old FM it did all the things that are mentioned in the report. Yet you claim it´s as it is modeled NOW.

 

And be honest, do you really fly the 190 that much?

 

I think Irgendjemand and Murf are flying it a lot. I know what Murf thinks of it. Here´s some more of what I and I think most other frequent 190 pilots can relate to:

 

 

 

 

How does that fit into the actual reports?

 

So you tell me which flight model seems more reasonable

I fly every plane, both sides, always did, always will do and the FW is a plane I really love (one of my favorite with the Mc 202) 

 

I did not flew it extensively lately, I must admit, and I feel a difference post patch. 

 

I DO NOT CLAIM the FM is right or wrong, I just see a lot of people trying to argue on the FM with very few data (if not none) ... only "feelings" mostly coming from the previous IL2, which is no proof at all of anything.

 

People flew 10 years on a previous game, with worst engine, worst physics, Moded FM , by non aeronautical engineers .... and they claim to have the truth because of this previous "experience"

 

for example, there was a huge debate on the climb rate, raging for months ... it was corrected, and ingame, the change is almost invisible .... yet people were very conviced this would make the plane a world champion   

FM is as it is, it does not "feel" wrong regarding test reports, and my trust will always go to the aeronautical and specialist egineer doing the FM, it is his job, he probably sudied for years on this subject  

 

So the annectodical so called "evidence", from autobiographic novels,  contraditced by other sources ... do not feel very solid to change anything

Edited September 1, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Irgendjemand]

I fly every plane, both sides, always did, always will do and the FW is a plane I really love (one of my favorite with the Mc 202) 

 

I did not flew it extensively lately, I must admit, and I feel a difference post patch. 

 

I DO NOT CLAIM the FM is right or wrong, I just see a lot of people trying to argue on the FM with very few data (if not none) ... only "feelings" mostly coming from the previous IL2, which is no proof at all of anything.

 

People flew 10 years on a previous game, with worst engine, worst physics, Moded FM , by non aeronautical engineers .... and they claim to have the truth because of this previous "experience"

 

for example, there was a huge debate on the climb rate, raging for months ... it was corrected, and ingame, the change is almost invisible .... yet people were very conviced this would make the plane a world champion   

FM is as it is, it does not "feel" wrong regarding test reports, and my trust will always go to the aeronautical and specialist egineer doing the FM, it is his job, he probably sudied for years on this subject  

 

So the annectodical so called "evidence", from autobiographic novels,  contraditced by other sources ... do not feel very solid to change anything

Many people here simply dont have the time to make tests or recherche for actual documents to back a claim. After all its a game and all that counts is if its fun to fly. If I was its developer I certainly would want to know when my customers are not pleased with my product (not claiming its the case just my impression from intensively reading the forums). There are soooo many complaints about the FW that I at least would definately put an eye or two more on the FM (yes, also if it was a russian plane) in question and try to myke my product more attractive. I really would like to know how the sales of the FW run since last patch or overall compared to other planes. I would bet money its sales are pretty weak. If I was right it actually was in their best interest to correct things.

I really hope with the change in lead in the devteam this will improve. I am confident. Jason makes a much much more reasonable impression to me that its predecessor did. I hope I am right.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

LAL_Trinkoff, I absolutely agree that it is not feasible to determine whether the new or old FM is right based on these reports. The old or the new one could be right.

 

The thing that strikes me though is, In the new FM people feel like they do not have a chance in that AC. However this does not fit well with how the FW was perceived during WW2. Now you may call that anecdotal, but if you have two FMs probably equally backed by facts, then that is the next best thing you can go by.

 

I would like to trust the Experts but they have already fixed the old FM by implying a workaround which leaves us with what we have now.

 

If you trust experts I'm sure you have not met many of them :D

[coconut]

Wasn't the fineness ratio recently adjusted on the FW190? If that's so, it's a change that I think feels right. Not that I know much about flight physics, but I remember noting a long time ago the tendency the plane had to stay up in the air when I wanted to land it, and how hard it was to lose speed and altitude compared to the other planes in the game.