Bad feeling about russian 20mm.

[KoN_]

Instant kill a 100% damage hit on 109 , no sounds ` nothing`  just an outside view of my death and a deflection shot  great shooting . 

 

Now its very rare i see a 100% damage .

Edited August 24, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Instant kill a 100% damage hit on 109 , no sounds ` nothing`  just an outside view of my death and a deflection shot  great shooting . 

 

Now its very rare i see a 100% damage .

 

 

Yeah, I had that happen to me twice in one night in my IL-2 a couple weeks ago.  Always a shock!  Also had my armored canopy blown clean off another time.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Silas

[150GCT_Veltro]

Yeah, I had that happen to me twice in one night in my IL-2 a couple weeks ago.  Always a shock!  Also had my armored canopy blown clean off another time.

 

To Kill the pilot is the best way, and faster, to stop an IL2.

[SYN_Haashashin]

To Kill the pilot is the best way, and faster, to stop any plane

 

Fixed that for you  

 

Sorry, its a habit I got from RoF, Kill the pilot so the poor soul doesnt go down burning (no parachutes).

[LukeFF]

A bunch of anecdotal evidence suggesting/implying a victimizing effect of German aircraft in this game.

 

I've never seen this before.  Weird...

 

I wonder what it will be tomorrow because a thread like this pops off every day or two.  Popcorn sales are through the roof at my local grocer.

 

Is it me, or are German aircraft tires over-inflated? They bounce too much!!!!!11111!!!! 

[9./JG27golani79]

Is it me, or are German aircraft tires over-inflated? They bounce too much!!!!!11111!!!! 

 

Oh wow .. you are so funny ...

[BlitzPig_EL]

Here is what I know about flying the 109, and you guys that know me, know that I don't fly Luftwaffe very often.

 

When I switch over to the 109, I feel like a GOD.   If I don't want a Mig, Yak, Lagg, or Polikarpov to touch me, they won't, because they can't.

It's almost the same with the Folgore as well.  If you are getting shot down by the VVS, it's because you have put yourself into their comfort zone.

 

It's just that simple.

 

I won't bother with comments on this particular caliber war.   I can get reliable kills with the stock armament on the Folgore, so if I have cannon, no matter what country it's from, it's just fighting deluxe.

Edited August 24, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[GrendelsDad]

I feel many forum discussions wouldn't take place if people had significant experience flying both sides.

 

Just expressing my own "feelings"

With this I agree.

Edited August 24, 2016 by II./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Livai]

I cut every plane with every caliber into two pieces with a few shots.......

[ACG_pezman]

The ease of dieing unglamourously in all aircraft, but specifically fighters of which this thread relates to mostly, is the one topic on this forum of which I actually have vast experience of.

 

I have spent hours dieing in various ways whilst practicing my gunnery, SA etc against the AI in so many QMB mix ups of aircraft, and then many other hours being bounced as a lone wolf online and also flying as a wingman in a squad... my 'feeling'?...

 

... I die more or less equally well in all aircraft.

 

And when this is against the AI their accuracy is goign to be more standard than against humans online, so I firmly believe:

 

"well placed shots by any aircraft and any loadout, can and will despatch you in seconds."

 

The best scenario that has demonstrated this for me is a 8 vs 8 QMB,... fly without a care, let yourself get target fixated and see how long the aircraft you think has weaker guns takes to dispatch you when it pops up on your 6, or pulls a snap shot of AI-godness. For me it usualy very quick.

Spoken like a true flight simmer. +1 sir

[DD_Arthur]

I  feel many forum discussions wouldn't take place if people had significant experience flying both sides.

 

 

Very good point

[Fern]

Here's some British and US reports about the F-4: http://beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=36&L=1

Just compare it to Russian ammo.

 

I've been instakilled on both sides. Russian ammo is ruthless when I'm on the German side. When I fly Russian, my ammo isnt strong enough...

 

I didnt pay 160 bucks for a balanced game. I'm expecting unbiased realism in a sim. It seems its gone back and forth on both sides since I started playing. Russians whines and Germans whine. Nerfing and balancing is the damn result.

 

Quit messing with stuff. If something is changed in a game update, post the source and reason why it's being changed.

 

Version 1.009

EX: Armour penetration ammo has also been more precisely tuned;

 

Ok, why the hell did you do this?

 

 

 

http://beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=36&L=1

[ACG_pezman]

[...]

 

I didnt pay 160 bucks for a balanced game. I'm expecting unbiased realism in a sim. It seems its gone back and forth on both sides since I started playing. Russians whines and Germans whine. Nerfing and balancing is the damn result.

 

[...]

 

I think that comment is unfounded.  What has been changed ahistorically to be a "balance" or nerf in this sim? 

 

Also, interesting link about the armor penetration of the F4, but I don't see what bearing it has on the discussion.  From what I gathered from it, that armor they were testing was an addition that didn't used to be there on previous F4 models.  Also the penetration tests seemed about right to what we have in this sim.  It was nice to read about how mean the American .50 cal M1 machine guns were though.  Might explain why the P-40 can wreck targets when it hits them with those six .50's.

[BraveSirRobin]

I think that comment is unfounded.  What has been changed ahistorically to be a "balance" or nerf in this sim? 

 

 

 

Look at the sentence before that.  Russian ammo is ruthless when he flies German.  When he flies Russian it doesn't seem powerful enough.  He balances the game on his own.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Nothing has really changed since original IL-2 where you could snipe with the ShVAK 20mm from 1km away or more. Single shots to pop the oil or radiator on those 109's. MG151 ammo fell well short. Tested and proven many times back in time. Not so hard to do in this game either. Anyways when people comment on how accurate a gun is they seem to forget that these results are/were obtained on ground shot from a rig/stand. Put the same gun in a plane and outta the window goes the accuracy obtained on ground. Bopping, weaving, swaying platform to fire from with less than ideal conditions with high speed, winds etc in the equation. Modern cannons have dispersion on purpose, to cover an area roughly the size of the target plane, increasing the propability of hitting it. A sniping gun is not the best one in fast snap shots or in quickly changing situations. A shotgun is better at close range than a Barret What we see in BoS/BoM is just the vision of the devs, nothing more. Accurate or not, only they know it or can do anything about it.

[Fern]

They messed with the damage model sometime back. Luftwaffe guns were too powerful if I remember right. Was it changed for historical reasons or was it changed to balance and appease Russian "whiners"?

[7.GShAP/Silas]

They messed with the damage model sometime back. Luftwaffe guns were too powerful if I remember right. Was it changed for historical reasons or was it changed to balance and appease Russian "whiners"?

 

Considering how VVS whiners are in short supply compared to their Luftwaffe counterparts I'd say it's unlikely the devs would find their appeasement a compelling motivation for changing the model.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Silas

[Fern]

Considering how VVS whiners are in short supply compared to their Luftwaffe counterparts and I'd say it's unlikely the devs would find their appeasement a compelling motivation for changing the model.

 

I agree, but I'd think everyone would like to know why the changes are happening. Look at what happened to the 190, holy hell.

 

There's Han's FM Claims thread, but the last time that was updated was OCT 14.

 

 

Version 1.008

21. Proximity of fire in fuel tank or engine now depends on the projectile energy. For instance, the chance to set a fuel tank on fire depends not only on rate of fire but also on bullet's caliber and muzzle velocity. Only AP ammo can cause fire while HE rounds burst when hitting the sheathing and can only tear through the tank, but can't set it ablaze;  SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT CATCHING FIRE TOO MUCH. CHANGED.

 

Version 1.009

28. All soviet inline engines in the game got their durability fixed, and as a result - incresed. All inline engines in the game now have roughly similar durability. Radial engines are approximately twice tougher than the inline ones; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT ENGINE DURABILITY. CHANGED.

29. An opportunity to extinguish fire in the fuel tanks on flight. To do that increase speed and sideslip;

30. Gun spread was recalculated. German fixed weaponry got horizontal spread decreased by 50%; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT GERMAN GUNS. CHANGED.

31. MG/FF cannons on Fw 190 A-3 and He 11 H-6 got their horizontal spread decreased according to the reference; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT 190 CANNONS. CHANGED.

32. Horizontal spread of turret guns in case of overheat has been increased;

 

Version 1.008

Christmas tree! EVERYONE LIKES CHRISTMAS

Edited August 26, 2016 by Fern

[CUJO_1970]

Considering how VVS whiners are in short supply compared to their Luftwaffe counterparts I'd say it's unlikely the devs would find their appeasement a compelling motivation for changing the model.

I would certainly hope VVS whiners would be in short supply. What in the hell do they actually have to complain about?

 

Every VVS aircraft with the possible exception of the lend-lease P-40 is modeled in the most optimistic way possible while still maintaining credibility. It is the same for every VVS gun modeled in the sim.

 

What, specifically, does the VVS whiner have to complain about? (Because the answer is basically nothing)

[Jade_Monkey]

You selectively choose to omit that the yak was tamed, interesting.

[LukeFF]

Every VVS aircraft with the possible exception of the lend-lease P-40 is modeled in the most optimistic way possible while still maintaining credibility. It is the same for every VVS gun modeled in the sim.

Eh no, sorry, but that's a false statement. VikS has plainly stated here they are using serial production data for Soviet aircraft.

[ACG_pezman]

 

I agree, but I'd think everyone would like to know why the changes are happening. Look at what happened to the 190, holy hell.

 

There's Han's FM Claims thread, but the last time that was updated was OCT 14.

 

 

Version 1.008

21. Proximity of fire in fuel tank or engine now depends on the projectile energy. For instance, the chance to set a fuel tank on fire depends not only on rate of fire but also on bullet's caliber and muzzle velocity. Only AP ammo can cause fire while HE rounds burst when hitting the sheathing and can only tear through the tank, but can't set it ablaze;  SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT CATCHING FIRE TOO MUCH. CHANGED.

 

Version 1.009

28. All soviet inline engines in the game got their durability fixed, and as a result - incresed. All inline engines in the game now have roughly similar durability. Radial engines are approximately twice tougher than the inline ones; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT ENGINE DURABILITY. CHANGED.

29. An opportunity to extinguish fire in the fuel tanks on flight. To do that increase speed and sideslip;

30. Gun spread was recalculated. German fixed weaponry got horizontal spread decreased by 50%; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT GERMAN GUNS. CHANGED.

31. MG/FF cannons on Fw 190 A-3 and He 11 H-6 got their horizontal spread decreased according to the reference; SOMEBODY WHINED ABOUT 190 CANNONS. CHANGED.

32. Horizontal spread of turret guns in case of overheat has been increased;

 

Version 1.008

Christmas tree! EVERYONE LIKES CHRISTMAS

 

 

These all look like things that the Luftwhiners complained about.

 

• Catching fire applies to all aircraft, not just VVS or LW
• Engine durability applies to all aircraft, not just VVS or LW
• German guns and cannons were made better, not a VVS whiner responsible for that.

The Yak was tamed is true, but I have yet to see the 109 being tamed.  And as far as I know, despite the ferocious debates in the FM forum, there is no evidence to prove that the 190 was a superior dogfighter.  Hell, read the aircraft description in the IL2 store, makes it clear what it is good at:

 

Fw-190 struck fear into enemy hearts - the most powerfully armed among all the Eastern Front fighters. It was sturdy and dependable. It could reach high speeds and it made for a dangerous adversary. Walter Nowotny, Otto Kittel, Erich Rudorffer and other German aces flew it. The combat capabilities of this aircraft allow a pilot to be aggressive and engage on his own terms.

 

The current model of 190 we have, I believe, holds up to this promise perfectly.  It's only when a 190 pilot tries to get down and dirty, in an inherently unstable aircraft with vicious snap stalls, twisting and turning with lighter, more stable aircraft, that we see the brick 190 appear.  And from what I have read, it should appear.

 

Every change the devs have made in this game has only happened when players (or other Devs) have presented actual evidence that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. pilot accounts don't count) that they are wrong with the current model.

 

To be fair, the devs of this game are by far some of the best dev's in the Sim community.  Or you can always go take your chances with DCS and WT.  How long ago were people supposed to be flying their P-51's and Fw-190D's over Normandy?  Yeah, exactly.  And it's waaaayyy more expensive over there too.

[GridiroN]

These all look like things that the Luftwhiners complained about.

 

• Catching fire applies to all aircraft, not just VVS or LW
• Engine durability applies to all aircraft, not just VVS or LW
• German guns and cannons were made better, not a VVS whiner responsible for that.

The Yak was tamed is true, but I have yet to see the 109 being tamed. And as far as I know, despite the ferocious debates in the FM forum, there is no evidence to prove that the 190 was a superior dogfighter. Hell, read the aircraft description in the IL2 store, makes it clear what it is good at:

 

The current model of 190 we have, I believe, holds up to this promise perfectly. It's only when a 190 pilot tries to get down and dirty, in an inherently unstable aircraft with vicious snap stalls, twisting and turning with lighter, more stable aircraft, that we see the brick 190 appear. And from what I have read, it should appear.

 

Every change the devs have made in this game has only happened when players (or other Devs) have presented actual evidence that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. pilot accounts don't count) that they are wrong with the current model.

 

To be fair, the devs of this game are by far some of the best dev's in the Sim community. Or you can always go take your chances with DCS and WT. How long ago were people supposed to be flying their P-51's and Fw-190D's over Normandy? Yeah, exactly. And it's waaaayyy more expensive over there too.

This is the exact opposite of what the FW is currently like. Whilst I'll agree the FM for the FW is not as bad as some people say, the plane absolutely does not force anyone to play on the 190s terms. Not many Russians fear the 190. The current 190 doctrine is "climb high, drop on people, if they're not dead by the time you finish your dive, run away". That's not very "on my terms"'sy...

 

Furthermore, every source I've seen claims the 190 could out turn a 109 in a flat turn, but that's anecdotal.

Edited August 26, 2016 by GridiroN

[ACG_pezman]

This is the exact opposite of what the FW is currently like. Whilst I'll agree the FM for the FW is not as bad as some people say, the plane absolutely does not force anyone to play on the 190s terms. Not many Russians fear the 190. The current 190 doctrine is "climb high, drop on people, if they're not dead by the time you finish your dive, run away". That's not very "on my terms"'sy...

 

Furthermore, every source I've seen claims the 190 could out turn a 109 in a flat turn, but that's anecdotal.

I believe what you just described is engaging on your own terms. As a VVS pilot (mainly) we understand that we can't dictate crap in an engagement unless the LW turn with us. We can't zoom, dive, climb, or go as fast as the LW aircraft, so running away is something we CANT do. We have to fight, which is not engaging on your own terms. Diving in, firing, then running IS fighting on your own terms. People just need to learn when to run. Ask HerrMurff, he dictates the fight with the 190 all the time.

[Turban]

Furthermore, every source I've seen claims the 190 could out turn a 109 in a flat turn, but that's anecdotal.

 

Ummm.. what ?

 

 

Also, please keep in mind FM discussion have to take place in the FM discussion subforum. 

 

This was a thread about ammo. How is it now about the 190's FM?

[ACG_pezman]

Ummm.. what ?

 

 

Also, please keep in mind FM discussion have to take place in the FM discussion subforum. 

 

This was a thread about ammo. How is it now about the 190's FM?

 

Because it turned into a "feels" thread.  So I guess it's kind of cathartic, which the community needs sometimes.

[Willy__]

Saying that the current 190 is fine is just like saying that current P40 engine limits are fine aswell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, in a high speed single turn the FW should outturn the 109. But the 190 still lose to almost any plane in the game in case of sustained turns, as it should be.

Edited August 26, 2016 by JAGER_Staiger

[GridiroN]

I believe what you just described is engaging on your own terms. As a VVS pilot (mainly) we understand that we can't dictate crap in an engagement unless the LW turn with us. We can't zoom, dive, climb, or go as fast as the LW aircraft, so running away is something we CANT do. We have to fight, which is not engaging on your own terms. Diving in, firing, then running IS fighting on your own terms. People just need to learn when to run. Ask HerrMurff, he dictates the fight with the 190 all the time.

 

That's a good argument, and logically makes sense, but I do not think that is an honest interpretation of the words "fighting on your own terms."

[LukeFF]

Would it kill you guys to not drag yet another topic into a complaint about the 190? 

 

[216th_Jordan]

This whole 190 thing is really getting on my nerves. there are people pointing out what is wrong specifically in the fm forums (which is good), and devs have said that time is in short supply. Not everything will be perfect. (Basic On paper data of 190 corresponds to real data so far) So either put something useful into the discussion here (not about 190) or leave it. Also, subtile 'russian bias' shouting is not making it better neither.

Edited August 26, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[216th_Jordan]

They messed with the damage model sometime back. Luftwaffe guns were too powerful if I remember right. Was it changed for historical reasons or was it changed to balance and appease Russian "whiners"?

All airframes were too weak so all airframes were made more durable. (You just made an assupmtion on something that you made up)

 

And who exactly are those 'Russian whiners'? I can think of maybe one or two if any.

[ACG_pezman]

That's a good argument, and logically makes sense, but I do not think that is an honest interpretation of the words "fighting on your own terms."

 

I understand your point as well. 

 

As we have just demonstrated for the entire forum, two different people interpreted the same sentence two different ways.  So, who is to say what the Dev's meant by that statement?  What do they consider "fighting on your own terms" to be?  Can it even be dishonest then?  

[...]

 

Also, in a high speed single turn the FW should outturn the 109. But the 190 still lose to almost any plane in the game in case of sustained turns, as it should be.

 

FTFY

 

But seriously, that is the key.  High speed.  That aircraft still handles better than any aircraft at high speed where it is supposed to be.

[Livai]

Spend the 6 min of your life to watch this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrYvdy86ltY

 

I have a very bad feeling about German's 15mm and 20mm cannons if I watch this whole video they are just too much overpowered....is this good or bad?....I known just another bad feeling to share....

Edited August 28, 2016 by Superghostboy

[Voidhunger]

Spend the 6 min of your life to watch this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrYvdy86ltY

 

I have a very bad feeling about German's 15mm and 20mm cannons if I watch this whole video they are just too much overpowered....is this good or bad?....I known just another bad feeling to share....

 

Hmmm , playing in solo mostly Bf109 the wings are falling off too often in this video, and he didnt even shoot to the wings. Strange, it seems to me its a MP "problem"

 

Anyway I dont think that the VVS guns are overmodeled.

[Willy__]

That is an old video made before changes.

[Voidhunger]

OK

[Jade_Monkey]

Like someone pointed out, it's pretty obvious that the people complaining have not played both sides.

 

In many occasions I've felt like VVS planes were not doing enough damage (Mig-3 20mm anyone?).

[Danziger]

This is why 2xUBS is always what I take. Higher velocity=flatter trajectory and a faster firing rate as well.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

It really is a matter of impression and perspective. When I fly MiG-3 I usually take Berezins over Shvak (only that someone for unknown reason locked that on damn ), its best to take additional underwing mgs if you expect bombers. 

I can waste lot of ammo on any bomber when I fly my Yak, but I also had situation when I scored lots of hits with FW-190 on Pe-2 and the flew away like little happened. Then sometimes first salvo ignites enemy aircraft ...

 

There is no simple answer to that. 

[ACG_pezman]

It really is a matter of impression and perspective. When I fly MiG-3 I usually take Berezins over Shvak (only that someone for unknown reason locked that on damn ), its best to take additional underwing mgs if you expect bombers.

I can waste lot of ammo on any bomber when I fly my Yak, but I also had situation when I scored lots of hits with FW-190 on Pe-2 and the flew away like little happened. Then sometimes first salvo ignites enemy aircraft ...

 

There is no simple answer to that.

What if there is?

 

What if sometimes you hit perfectly on convergence and other times you might be too close or too far away? Is 20mm really that much more than 12.7mm? If only one cannon round hits, how much damage do you expect it to do?

 

I just find that when you hit aircraft perfectly with your convergence the damage is fatal, however inside or outside of your set distance, you get HE puffs and body damage but little structural/critical damage or fires. The fact that Russian cannons and MG's are typically right next to each other I think also makes it easier to hit multiple rounds on target because the dispersion is less.

 

I also think the balance is good. The natural Russian strengths are in game (high muzzle velocity, close proximity of weapons, high fire rates) as well as their disadvantage (low damage potential). Meanwhile the Germans have their advantage (high damage potential) and their disadvantages (lower muzzle velocity, slower fire rate, farther proximity of cannons).

 

And let's not forget that the closer you are to a target the more damage your rounds deal due to their higher energy (just having left the barrel). With the Russians having 2x20mm right next to each other, the chances of scoring both rounds hitting an aircraft in close proximity to each other means more damage potential. The 190, with its cannons spaced out and only the 2x7.92mm MG's close to each other means chances are only one HE or AP cannon round will strike at a time. Damage gets spread out over the aircraft instead of being more concentrated. The 109, having a similar weapons load as the Yak, suffers from the slower fire rate on the cannon and lower projectile velocity. Plus, one 20mm and two 7.92mm bullets hitting isn't a lot of fire power to begin with, so multiple hits are required to do real damage. The higher fire rate and velocity of the VVS weaponry just makes it easier.

 

At least that is my understanding.