When did the initial "bf" became "Me" ?

[=LD=Hethwill]

As per the thread title, when and in what model did the model designation ceased to be listed as bf109 and became Me109 ? Why ?

[JtD]

Never. The designation Bf and Me for the Bf 109 can be found in documents from the same time period. Bf is being used far more often, all the time. In particular official Luftwaffe documents (L.Dv.T.) seem to be using Bf exclusively, from the first to the last model.

[Allons]

Hi, german planes were officially named after the producing company followed by the number of model. For the process of merger and akquisition regarding Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (Bf) and Messerschmitt AG (Me) see:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_Flugzeugwerke

 

Regards, Allons!

[von_Tom]

As JtD says, they're both correct for the entirety of the war.

 

Personally I use Me during the BoB and Bf afterwards.  Seems to fit though I don't know why.

 

Hood

[Allons]

From the wikipedia article i posted above:

 

 

BFW was reconstituted as "Messerschmitt AG" on July 11, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation prefix changing from "Bf" to "Me" for all newer designs that were accepted by the RLM after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although sometimes the newer designations were used as well, most often by subcontractors, such as Erla Maschinenwerk of Leipzig.^{[citation needed]} In practise, all BFW/Messerschmitt aircraft from the Bf 108 four-seat touring monoplane, to the Bf 163 light observation aircraft (not the same plane as the later Me 163 rocket fighter) were prefixed "Bf", all later types with "Me".

 

Best, Allons!

[FlatSpinMan]

When Chuck Norris was born and decided he needed to use "me" to refer to himself so he could avoid taking his own name in vain.

Because even Chuck Norris doesn't want to mess with Chuck Norris.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

It is funny though - you will occasionally see people militantly claiming "Bf" is the correct prefix, apparently ignorant that the contemporary Germans didn't seem to care and used both.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Yeah, was just curious. Personally i use bf more often than not.

Edited November 25, 2013 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

[FTC_Cule]

Gentlemen, let me tell you the story.

 

At the early 1930s willy messerschmitt designed mainly civil aircraft. They were mostly successful, but one of his designs failed miserably. The man who lost the money inversion in this project was Milsch. Göring later assigned Milsch as his assistant in the newly created luftwaffe.

 

When the spitfire was being developed, hitler ordered his plane designers to create the new regular fighter plane of the luftwaffe. Milsch ordered that Heinkel, Focke Wulff, dornier and others entered the cometition, but they all failed...

 

Suprisingly, Göring chose the all-excluded from the competition design - the messerschmitt 108 typhoon. He wanted an armed version with a more powerful engine and maintaining the streamlined shape. This lead to the 109...

 

Milsch had to cope with messerschmitt designing his new plane in spite of their strong anger between them. In fact, when the 109 was already being planned, he warned messerschmitt that even if his plane came into production, it would be another company which made his design.

 

This is why bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BF) administrated the design, although it was designed by messerschmitt.

[Cybermat47]

If you use 'Me', you're dead to me.

 

 

 

 

 

[dkoor]

Interesting topic, thanks for the heads up.

[Allons]

Gentlemen, let me tell you the story.

 

At the early 1930s willy messerschmitt designed mainly civil aircraft. They were mostly successful, but one of his designs failed miserably. The man who lost the money inversion in this project was Milsch. Göring later assigned Milsch as his assistant in the newly created luftwaffe.

 

Milsch´s name is correctly Milch

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch

 

Best Allons!

[Hot_Rod]

Greetings All,

 

I know this isn't a very timely response to this topic, but I wanted to share some information that I remembered seeing in an old issue of Military History magazine on this same subject.

 

The Editor of Military History - Jon Guttman - had contacted the Luftwaffe to see if they could resolve the question of which designation is correct in reference to the Messerschmidt fighter, Bf-109 or Me-109.

 

The response, from a Dr. Winfried Heinemann of the Military History Research Office in Potsdam, was published in the Editorial section of the August 1997 issue of Military History, and went as follows:

 

"Dear Mr. Guttman,

        I have gone into the problem you described, and have come up with the following answer:

In 1927, Professor Willy Messerschmidt began a cooperation with the Bayerisches Flugzeugwerke Allegemeine Gesellschaft.  Throughout the Great Depression and the following years, he increased his share in the firm until, in September 1938, the entire firm was renamed 'Messerschmidt AG.'  Any aircraft designed before that time were officially designated as "Bf.'  That goes for the Bf-108 Taifun, even for those models built after World War II.  It also goes for the Bf-109A - D series, whereas the 109E - Z version bore the designator 'Me.'  Similarly, Bf-110A and B should be seen differently in this respect from the Me-110C - G.

        This information is based on detailed descriptions in Die deutschen Flugzeuge 1933 - 1945: Deutschland Luftfahrt - Entwicklungen bis zum Ende des Zweiten Weltkrieges, by Karlheinz Kenz and Heinz Joachim Nowarra (München, J.P. Lehmann, 1972).

        I hope and trust this information will be helpful to you.

 

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Winfried Heinemann

Lieutenant Colonel

Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt

Potsdam"

 

Mr. Guttman then stated that henceforth, references to Messerschmidt fighters in their magazines, would be made according to the criteria in Dr. Heinemann's letter.

 

Personally, I would like to see the developers also use this criteria for in-game references to the Messerschmidt fighters.....but if that doesn't happen, I won't lose any sleep over it!     

 

Salute,

Rod

[JtD]

I hope they don't, because the Luftwaffe didn't. And neither Luftwaffe nor Messerschmitt ever used a - between initials and number.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Nice one hotrod. Thanks.

[Hot_Rod]

Thanks Hethwill_Khan,

 

I am going to reverse what I said was my preference for the in-game use of designations for the Messerschmidt fighters (stay with "Bf").

 

I think what Dr. Heinemann's letter gave was the "technically" correct answer.  However if - as JtD stated - the Luftwaffe was using the "Bf" designator almost exclusively in official contemporary documents, I think that should take precedence over a "technical" interpretation.  It was afterall, their aircraft!

 

JtD:  I agree, the "dash" between the designator and the numbers looked odd, I only used it because that is the way it was shown in Dr. Heinemann's letter.

 

Time to do some sightseeing around the Stalingrad map in my Bf109 F-4.   

 

Rod

[Pierre64]

An example of difference

Bf 163, an unlucky concurrent of the Fieseler Storch

 

Me 163, the famous rocket interceptor

[Finkeren]

BTW: Didn't the RLM stray from their naming policy late in the war and start using the initials of the head of the design team in the name like the Soviets did? To my knowledge the Ta 152 was still produced by Focke Wulf, but was named so in honour of Kurt Tank.

[FTC_Cule]

Yes sorry, it's milch not milsch.

 

Anyway Messerschmitt swallowed Bayernische flugzeugewerke so it's his company anyway.

[Crump]

 

BTW: Didn't the RLM stray from their naming policy late in the war and start using the initials of the head of the design team in the name like the Soviets did? To my knowledge the Ta 152 was still produced by Focke Wulf, but was named so in honour of Kurt Tank.

 

 

That was an honor bestowed upon Kurt Tank and not the normal naming convention as I understand it.