Would you shoot at a Red Cross Ju-52?

[Feathered_IV]

How about an "Honour Rating" including Ramming, Ambulance killing, Chute Killing, Vulching etc. 

On a Server like DED or TAW once a certain level if dishonour is reached, there would be a higher Reward on your head and other ways of punishing dishonourable behaviour indirectly. 

 

That could be a very interesting addition to the game.  It got me thinking of things too, like higher numbers of points being awarded for the destruction of more experienced pilots and less ones for beginners etc.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

Imagine if the server could set a custom skin for really "dishonorable" pilots! That would really make for some interesting game play.

 

That could be a very interesting addition to the game.  It got me thinking of things too, like higher numbers of points being awarded for the destruction of more experienced pilots and less ones for beginners etc.

[JtD]

I'd prefer an award for the good guys over a shame tag for the bad guys.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

How about a Punishment Battalion they are automatically assigned to, in which they have to redeem themselves as rear gunners on Human or AI Transports or on Il-2s. 

I'd prefer an award for the good guys over a shame tag for the bad guys.

Why not one and the other. Rank People from Knight to Scumbag. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Mac_Messer]

Yup. Stats, More stats. Stats rule all.

[JG13_opcode]

How about a Punishment Battalion they are automatically assigned to, in which they have to redeem themselves as rear gunners on Human or AI Transports or on Il-2s. 

Why not one and the other. Rank People from Knight to Scumbag. 

 

Because some people revel in being the bad guy/bandit and it's best not to give them any attention.

[PatrickAWlson]

Would a real pilot have been reprimanded?  I doubt it.  An enemy plane is an enemy plane.  Shooting it down eliminates the crew, the aircraft, and ensures that any wounded aboard do not recover and return to the front.  In reality individual soldiers might choose not to target a medivac, but I also am not aware of repercussions for shooting one down.

 

Then there are the issues already noted per identification.  Would you even notice the red cross vs. a black one before pressing the button?

 

 

Would I personally do it?  Cold logic dictates that I pull the trigger, but I don't think that I could.  OTOH, if I was hardened by years of combat and watching others die, maybe I could.

[LLv24_Zami]

War is war, I would probably shoot it down. It is an enemy plane carrying enemy soldiers which can return to the front after recovery in hospitals. Unless it can be somehow forced to land friendly airfield to be captured.

[JtD]

It's an enemy plane that could be carrying friendly soldiers.

 

Plus maintaining it and caring for the wounded will on the bottom line be more costly to the enemy than losing an aircraft and not replacing it.

[LLv24_Zami]

It's an enemy plane that could be carrying friendly soldiers.

 

Plus maintaining it and caring for the wounded will on the bottom line be more costly to the enemy than losing an aircraft and not replacing it.

I really doubt that enemy red cross planes on eastern front would be carrying friendly soldiers.

 

The other point is good one though. Wounded enemy is the best option at least in the battlefield. It takes resources from the enemy when they try to recover him. 

 

But still I would pull the trigger.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Zami

[Gump]

like chiefWH, i can see no reason or beneift for a medvac in this game. IF a reason was manufactured so as to employ it, it would have to be a benefit to the team, which would be a good reason for the enemy to stop it.

.

the only reason medvac is used is for REAL LIFE. to preserve life. most of the ppl getting rescued do not return to battle, and saving them is actually a cost to the team.

.

IRL, if the medvac operation is considered to be resupplying soldiers/pilots, or performing any other kind of military function (like recon or supply or troops) then it does not qualify as medvac and is shot down as a military target. in that case, all the game needs is a supply plane or recon plane.

How about an "Honour Rating" including Ramming, Ambulance killing, Chute Killing, Vulching etc. 

On a Server like DED or TAW once a certain level if dishonour is reached, there would be a higher Reward on your head and other ways of punishing dishonourable behaviour indirectly. 

.

imo, and others' as well, these activities are not considered 'dishonorable'. "ambulances" are not a part of the game anyways. there are valid reasons for the other instances you mention, at least sometimes. ie: "ramming" is mostly accidental. would not be very fair to call it a "dishonor".

...the only one you didn't mention that really IS dishonorable is team killing, but there are already suitable discouragements for that.

[Gump]

The Battle of Britain shows the snowballing sh*testorm led by disrespecting the red cross.

 

During cross-Channel engagements, German floatplanes sporting red crosses would pick up downed airmen on the Channel. Initially the RAF respected the Luftwaffe red-crosser, and things went smoothly.

 

Eventually however, an order was issued to shoot down air ambulances partially to prevent German pilots from returning to their units, and partially to prevent intelligence from being collected by the air ambulances (something widely suspected given the proximity of valuable assets to the combat zones).

 

One fine day, and I don't know how factual this is, a German floatplane came down to pick up pilots after an engagement as usual. It landed, picked up a German pilot and did the courtesy of picking up a British one as well from the freezing cold waters. The man had gone from KIA to POW, which although unpleasant was an improvement. Anyhow, the SAR aircraft takes off on its way back and lo and behold the RAF comes and following the directives, shoots down the aircraft, with the British pilot inside.

.

and they killed one of their own. probably by accident, but consider the decision for the command:. being reconnoitered by the enemy could result in much loss of life, assets and even the war. true in every endevor. ask modern businesses if keeping their working knowledge secret is important.

[216th_Peterla]

I think I will shoot at it just incase. Even if the game will get any medevak module you don't know what's the guy real mission. Could be distraction to do some resupply or parachute drop mission.

I guess I will get punished by the VVS command if I let it go. It's also a very tasty target for my IL2.

Regards

[Feathered_IV]

like chiefWH, i can see no reason or beneift for a medvac in this game. IF a reason was manufactured so as to employ it, it would have to be a benefit to the team, which would be a good reason for the enemy to stop it.

 

 

Just off the top of my head, currently each team collectively amasses points per-mission and the one with the most points at the end wins.  If successful medivac or supply flights rob a measure of the enemy's total points every time one is flown, it will become an operational imperative to intercept and prevent them.

 

If the game can award points to a successful pilot, but also have the dual purpose of stealing points from the enemy and awarding them to the other team at the conclusion of a successful flight, it would go a long way towards making the multiplayer environment one with a viable and engaging online economy.

 

You'd also do well to allow the skins to be unlocked online as well as in the unpopular campaign mode, but don't get me started on that...    

[HippyDruid]

Just off the top of my head, currently each team collectively amasses points per-mission and the one with the most points at the end wins.  If successful medivac or supply flights rob a measure of the enemy's total points every time one is flown, it will become an operational imperative to intercept and prevent them.

 

If the game can award points to a successful pilot, but also have the dual purpose of stealing points from the enemy and awarding them to the other team at the conclusion of a successful flight, it would go a long way towards making the multiplayer environment one with a viable and engaging online economy.

 

This could be a good format for mission points Feathered_IV.

Similar to how battlefield works with medic revives preventing their team tickets from reaching zero.

I could see successful medivac missions working in a similar fashion.

[keeno]

interesting idea, here's my chip in,

 

real life.......they're dead!, this is war, my friends and family may have been killed by them and revenge is sweet. Plus there may be injured fighter pilots in that hospital plane who if nursed back to health may come back one day and kill me..........no sorry but they're dead!

 

in game................still dead!!!!

[Holtzauge]

AFAIK, according to the current Geneva Convention, knowingly firing at a vehicle or person wearing clear insignia, i.e. the red cross, is a war crime. However, since this amendment was added to the convention in 1949 and this is WW2 you are good to go from a legal perspective. Anyway, being an old school guy, no I would not shoot it down and my vote would be for a subtraction of "points" rather than an addition if you shoot down a Ju-52 clearly marked with red crosses.........

[-TBC-AeroAce]

There are other alternatives to just shooting it down. U could intercept, signal for them to follow you to base. If they don't comply give some warning shots followed by a burst into an engine if they still persist.... Maybe if you get them to divert to a friendly base or get them to land in friendly territory u can steal it's cargo.....

[Holtzauge]

Do anyone know a good read or video of how it was during the extraction from the encircled airfields? I know a bit but not so much in detail how it really went down and how the supplies got to the rest of the german army in Stalingrad

 

A friend of mine used to work in sales for the German firm Bosch here in Sweden and a colleague of his was a survivor of Stalingrad:

 

He was a former officer in the Wehrmacht who was wounded at Stalingrad and was taken to the airfield where he waited to be evacuated. Apparently it was mayhem and as the story goes, just as he was about to board a Ju-52, he was stopped by the guards because the plane was full. Needless to say he was pretty upset. So they are standing there, seeing the Ju-52 taking off, envious of the lucky bastards who made it on. However, a few minutes later: BOOM, the Ju-52 goes down in flames. Down comes the next transport: He is one of the lucky few who are allowed to board and makes it out of Stalingrad alive. So it goes.

 

He went on from there to fight the war to the bitter end. In the end, he decided to try to avoid being captured by the Soviets and headed north to the German coast and made it over to Sweden. However, since people who wanted to go on the ferry were being searched, he hid his service weapon, a Walther, under a tree stump , planning to come back and retrieve it if he did not make it on to the ferry. He did and he always wondered what happened to his Walther and if someone ever found it….

[Livai]

Kill them all

[Gump]

well, the idea could be experimented with now, IF the skin was visible to all. that would require the server/game to have it as stock, or the server to require it to be downloaded by the user before play.

.

im having doubts about the practicality and appeal of employing it as some kind of game mechanism that actually counts for something. however, if it does not count for anything, why would anyone want to fly it?

.

which server had/has the requirement of flying transport planes to acquire fighters? that is an added 'feature' of gameplay but it doesn't appeal to everyone, and limits the server population. if an idea like hippydruid is suggesting where a medevac is used to 'revive' 'dead' pilots, it would be like that. I don't know how the map makers would cause penalties for shooting them? anyways, it would be a game 'feature', some are bound to like it, others not so much.

... since this is a 'game', it really doesn't matter that this is not 'fair' in that the medevac is really being used as a resupply of enemy strength, not a life saving mechanism. this idea is really just a supply/transport plane that has been given a free pass. in consideration, it seems the transport/supply is the better idea in that it already functions in this way, but allows the enemy to fairly interfere. BUT, for the sake of variety of visual effects, and a slight variation (protected resupply)  it may add flavor.

.

"medevac" is an "evacuation" IRL, meaning it is to extract personnel that are already disabled. there is no military benefit, other than removing the burden of care form the fellow soldiers. it is not used to resupply troops or suppIies (theoretically) IRL. also, it is not used as a search and rescue.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Gump

[Eagle-OnePirabee]

You guys have no flipping idea about me and my flying skills. I'd very likely peel into a dive, promptly lose control in over speed and yank back on the stick, induce a stall and go into the terrain like a comet. The unwitting Ju52 Medivac crew would go down in history as the first unarmed transport triplane to bring down an enemy fighter aircraft.

[Johnny_Red]

If it's got a swastika on the tail it doesn't matter if it's also got a red cross. The only good Nazi is a dead nazi

[[CPT]milopugdog]

If it's got a swastika on the tail it doesn't matter if it's also got a red cross. The only good Nazi is a dead nazi

So you're a commie then aye? 

[Holtzauge]

If it's got a swastika on the tail it doesn't matter if it's also got a red cross. The only good Nazi is a dead nazi

 

So because of the symbol on the tail, you shoot down an unarmed plane that in addition to the percentage of dedicated Nazis on board also contains non-combatants like nurses, doctors and a good dose of young German men who were simply drafted into the Wehrmacht?

 

Nice…….

[216th_Jordan]

So because of the symbol on the tail, you shoot down an unarmed plane that in addition to the percentage of dedicated Nazis on board also contains non-combatants like nurses, doctors and a good dose of young German men who were simply drafted into the Wehrmacht?

 

Nice…….

Considering what slaughterhouse the eastern front was (mostly for russians and other nationalities) and how fiercly the germans killed civilians and mitlitary alike I guess yes. but lets not slip into a political discussion here.

[Holtzauge]

Considering what slaughterhouse the eastern front was (mostly for russians and other nationalities) and how fiercly the germans killed civilians and mitlitary alike I guess yes. but lets not slip into a political discussion here.

 

I notice you say Germans. I don't agree you can lump all Germans or any other nationality together like that period. All who committed war crimes should get what they deserve irrespective of nationality.

[Smouch]

Wouldn't shoot out of principle...

 

That being said, it would only work if the skin is tied to load out and people aren't using the red cross Junkers for dirty purposes.

+1

[Johnny_Red]

So because of the symbol on the tail, you shoot down an unarmed plane that in addition to the percentage of dedicated Nazis on board also contains non-combatants like nurses, doctors and a good dose of young German men who were simply drafted into the Wehrmacht?

 

Nice…….

Yep. War is hell. Total war old boy.

[JtD]

... and then whine about retaliation.

[Holtzauge]

... and then whine about retaliation.

 

Sorry, you lost me there. I thought this thread was about if you would or would not shoot down a Ju-52 with red crosses?

 

Who whined about retaliation?

[Mac_Messer]

Yep. War is hell. Total war old boy.

The war was from 1941 to 1945. Now is 2016, no war. This is a game we play.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The war was from 1941 to 1945. Now is 2016, no war. This is a game we play.

Actually 36 to 45

[Holtzauge]

Yep. War is hell. Total war old boy.

 

War sure is hell:

 

In my glider club there used to be an old German lady who had been in the Luftwaffe during the war serving in a Flak battery. One day she was sent to the canteen to get food. When she got back to her position, many of her friends were dead because the position had been strafed. She survived they didn’t. So it goes. Anyway, that was all fair and square, all involved were combatants and I don’t remember hearing her “whine” about it just muse about how small things can change your life.

 

What she did “whine” about was this: She also escaped to Sweden in the closing stages of the war and in one incident she was crossing a river on a ferry and according to her, two Mustangs amused themselves by strafing it. She insists the ferry was only carrying civilians and it almost keeled over when people ran from one side to the other in an attempt to be on the leeward side for each strafing pass. She said she remembers seeing one of the pilots looking down at them as he flew over and she claims he could not have missed that they were all civilians. True or not? I don’t know but it for sure is a graphic illustration that war can be hell……..

 

But I supposed they all got what they deserved right? I mean all those people on the ferry were probably a 100% behind Goebbels call for the total war right?

[JtD]

Sorry, you lost me there. I thought this thread was about if you would or would not shoot down a Ju-52 with red crosses?

 

Who whined about retaliation?

Folks who make dumb comments about how they are going to kill everything in a total war. Enemy retaliation be it on game servers or in real life usually leads to complaints and whining, in particular from those who were poking everyone with a stick.

[CUJO_1970]

Shoot an unarmed ambulance?

 

No, I understand the difference between morality and legality.

 

I'm not above retribution though. If I see any shooting at one you may as well ride that burning Yak all the way into the ground and don't bother bailing out because I will cut you down in your parachute.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

If someone dishonours himself, it should be easier for the enemy to retaliate. Maybe a Marker on the Map, Square Announcements, Take-Off Notice and so on. 

Maybe it should even be legal to Teamkill him, as an apology to restore honorouble behaviour, otherwise Sabotage Operations could leave Airfields unprotected by AA, Enemy Ground Targets will be Deactivated and Attacks should be Concentrated on enemy Airfields, just to annoy the enemy. 

Edited August 6, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

The real question, would anyone fly a ju-52 without a gunner?

[Gump]

despite this being only a game, nothing is real, nothing gained/nothing lost (except time)..... there is no 'dishonor' in (virtually) shooting down something that is aiding the enemy's agenda against your team. you are NOT committing some kind of murderous act of helpless souls - it would only be a part of a goal to win and/or score points. also, if it benefits a pilot, it is STILL a threat to the points race, so competing pilots would see this as a thing to stop.

.

the only way to make it NOT worth while to shoot down is to make its mission/use worth NOTHING to the team or pilot. and make it's destruction award no kill to the shooter. then, it would be nothing more than a waste of bullets. offences may happen, but they would be minimal. but what is the incentive to fly the ambulance then?

.

however, an opposing team would STILL need to be concerned about the thing being used for reconnaissance and observation. im not seeing any mechanism that can prevent this or prevent the other team from considering it as a possibility and responding thusly to stop it.

[Rjel]

This was/could still be a fun little debate on whether or not any of us would shoot down a Ju 52 wearing Red Cross markers. Instead we turn it into a discussion about atrocities in WWII. Yup, I imagine everyone had some. Few had them on the scale of three of the major warring parties. Justify it anyway you want to, the history is there to be read. And viewed from the sources of the same atrocities.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Rjel