Would you shoot at a Red Cross Ju-52?

[Feathered_IV]

So, let's say the developers release the Ju-52 as flyable and also include the required new game modes & scoring that records and encourages the use of these transports.  Flying medivac and resupply becomes a thing, and a significant number of people can be found plying this new trade and amassing impressive tonnage-to death ratios.

 

 

 

You're in your trusty LaGG-3.  Flying lazy figures of eight behind the enemy lines and hoping to catch some bombers and transports as they transit through the area.  Far below you see the shape of an aircraft crawling slowly across the landscape and looking like a fly on the wall.  You do not hesitate.   Shadows of your canopy framing chase one another across the instrument panel as you roll into the dive and come arcing down with the sun at your back.

 

As you get closer you can see its a Ju-52.  Unescorted and unaware, it's flying straight and level just above the trees.  You line your eye up with the sight and position yourself for a perfect beam attack.  Much closer now.  Close enough to see the crosses on the wings.  Red crosses on a white background...

 

What do you do?

 

Do you fire?  Is a kill at any price worth more to you than any V-chivalry?  Do you let him complete his mercy mission with a salute and a wave?  Or troll the bugger with your undercarriage down and dump aerobatic smoke in his face?  Maybe you'd give him a chance and tell him through the chat bar to land immediately and hit refly, or else prepare to die and loose his streak.

 

What do you do?

[JG13_opcode]

Many won't even know that they are reenacting a war crime by shooting it down, even if they give the aircraft "warning".

Edited August 3, 2016 by JG13_opcode

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Wouldn't shoot out of principle, instead I'd try to figure out its route and camp along it for further Ju-52s which aren't marked in red.

 

That being said, it would only work if the skin is tied to load out and people aren't using the red cross Junkers for dirty purposes.

[JG13_opcode]

Wouldn't shoot out of principle, instead I'd try to figure out its route and camp along it for further Ju-52s which aren't marked in red.

 

That being said, it would only work if the skin is tied to load out and people aren't using the red cross Junkers for dirty purposes.

Indeed, dirty work in a Red Cross aircraft would be reenacting a different war crime: perfidious use of a protected symbol. Edited August 3, 2016 by JG13_opcode

[NachtJaeger110]

Rules of engagement. I would wait for the gunner of the Ju to fire at me. If the Player has activated "return fire" for his gunners, I would leave him. If he fires, I blow him out of the sky.

[TG-55Panthercules]

If I saw it dropping paratroopers or supplies, or his gunner started shooting at me, then yes - otherwise, most likely not.

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Lucas idea was clever. Follow it and do more harm at the airfield instead. 

Then again it would probably be me sitting in that lone Ju-52

 

Do anyone know how it was during WW2 if pilots actually honored the red cross or did it not matter? 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Lucas idea was clever. Follow it and do more harm at the airfield instead. 

Then again it would probably be me sitting in that lone Ju-52

 

Do anyone know how it was during WW2 if pilots actually honored the red cross or did it not matter? 

East, most likely not, West, maybe, sometimes. Especially not close to Switzerland. 

[wtornado]

This one is funny.

 

Players will have to abide to the Geneva Convention.

 

Oh wait Russia did not sign the Geneva convention.

 

Take no prisoners

 

Russians are allowed to.

 

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/only-the-germans-were-held-accountable-for-violations-of-the-geneva-convention-during-world-war-ii/

Edited August 3, 2016 by WTornado

[7.GShAP/Silas]

This one is funny.

 

Players will have to abide to the Geneva Convention.

 

Oh wait Russia did not sign the Geneva convention.

 

Take no prisoners

 

Russians are allowed to.

 

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/only-the-germans-were-held-accountable-for-violations-of-the-geneva-convention-during-world-war-ii/

 

 

Beat me to it.

[JG13_opcode]

Though the Russian Empire was a signatory to the original 1864 convention, the 1906 convention, and the 1929 convention (as the Federation), I believe the argument was made (by the Soviets) that the establishment of the Soviet Union freed them of their treaty obligations.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Hard one

 

It would probably depend on the server for example I could probably trust people on Saturday night bombers to be trust worthy. But I can imagine on other servers that people would take advantage.

 

Also the fact that Rus did not sign the Geneva convention and both sides were more than happy to exploit this...

 

I guess it should not be illegal to shoot them down but more of individual players morals

[JG13_opcode]

Russia did in fact sign the Conventions.

 

The Soviet Union did not.

[Neil]

For illustrating!

[JtD]

Do I get points for this?

[Jade_Monkey]

I usually dont see the skins until after i pressed the trigger, so my guess is that i would shoot it down unknowingly.

[Sokol1]

I shoot, and use this + for aim, like VC did with UH-1 Medvac's. 

 

It's a game, what matter is score points.  

 

Virtual sim world don"t sigh that "Geneva Convention", like URSS in WWII times.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Sokol1

[Rjel]

I usually dont see the skins until after i pressed the trigger, so my guess is that i would shoot it down unknowingly.

This was going to my reply too. I also agree that if a team used an A/C marked as a Red Cross ambulance one time and then for something else another time, it negates its status as being a hands off target.

[Caudron431]

Unless it's painted all in red i guess we'll see those kind of situations happening many times.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Yak9Micha

[Yogiflight]

As some stated, they would wait if the gunner shoots at them, if a redcrossed aircrafts has weapons, it is a legal target, anyway. As you can see in the pic above, no reargunner.

[AndyJWest]

 

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/only-the-germans-were-held-accountable-for-violations-of-the-geneva-convention-during-world-war-ii/

 

Please do not link to Holocaust denial websites.

[Monostripezebra]

Wasn´t there this reggae song "No skinpack, no crime!"?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Battle of Britain shows the snowballing sh*testorm led by disrespecting the red cross.

 

During cross-Channel engagements, German floatplanes sporting red crosses would pick up downed airmen on the Channel. Initially the RAF respected the Luftwaffe red-crosser, and things went smoothly.

 

Eventually however, an order was issued to shoot down air ambulances partially to prevent German pilots from returning to their units, and partially to prevent intelligence from being collected by the air ambulances (something widely suspected given the proximity of valuable assets to the combat zones).

 

One fine day, and I don't know how factual this is, a German floatplane came down to pick up pilots after an engagement as usual. It landed, picked up a German pilot and did the courtesy of picking up a British one as well from the freezing cold waters. The man had gone from KIA to POW, which although unpleasant was an improvement. Anyhow, the SAR aircraft takes off on its way back and lo and behold the RAF comes and following the directives, shoots down the aircraft, with the British pilot inside.

[xvii-Dietrich]

If someone uses a Red Cross skin, and you don't have it on your system, does it get loaded automatically?

 

If not, what they fly as a hospital airlift, will be seen by Russian fighters see as a default-camo-Luftwaffe-transporter.

 

That's not going to end well.   :-\

[TG-55Panthercules]

As some stated, they would wait if the gunner shoots at them, if a redcrossed aircrafts has weapons, it is a legal target, anyway. As you can see in the pic above, no reargunner.

 

Yeah. but I'm not sure if we'll be able to remove the gunner position/loadout with our Ju-52s in game, so the mere presence of the gun might not be enough of a distinction here.

[Habu]

If someone uses a Red Cross skin, and you don't have it on your system, does it get loaded automatically?

 

If not, what they fly as a hospital airlift, will be seen by Russian fighters see as a default-camo-Luftwaffe-transporter.

 

That's not going to end well.   :-\

There must be a red cross skin by default to avoid that problem. If it's in the default package, no one can said that he doesn't have the skin.

[BlitzPig_EL]

It's an enemy aircraft.

 

It gets shot down.

 

Do you really think the Germans would not shoot down a Russian Li 2 with red crosses painted on it?

 

And moreover, it's a freaking game, not a moral equivalency exercise.

[Monostripezebra]

In a way, this is a bit of a funny discussion, considering one of the important bits of the air battle was actually the fight over Heinkels and Junkers getting wounded out of Gumrak.. and the terrible conditions of the soldiers left on the airfields side.

Good thing a game is very very different from a real war...

[HippyDruid]

Shoot him down, he's being doing medivac kamikaze missions on our airfield all map.

When he bails go back and chute shoot for leaving all those poor wounded behind. 

[Feathered_IV]

There must be a red cross skin by default to avoid that problem. If it's in the default package, no one can said that he doesn't have the skin.

Yep, sorry that's what I meant with this scenario. The Devs include Medivac, and one or more default skins are Red Cross types.

 

Still can't decide what I would do. So I suppose I would say that I'd hesitate.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Feathered_IV

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

In a way, this is a bit of a funny discussion, considering one of the important bits of the air battle was actually the fight over Heinkels and Junkers getting wounded out of Gumrak.. and the terrible conditions of the soldiers left on the airfields side.

Good thing a game is very very different from a real war...

Do anyone know a good read or video of how it was during the extraction from the encircled airfields? I know a bit but not so much in detail how it really went down and how the supplies got to the rest of the german army in Stalingrad

[Rjel]

It's an enemy aircraft.

 

It gets shot down.

 

Do you really think the Germans would not shoot down a Russian Li 2 with red crosses painted on it?

 

And moreover, it's a freaking game, not a moral equivalency exercise.

I can fully agree with that. And I've never been bothered by any act I've committed playing a game. Obviously no real person gets hurt and I think I'm sane enough to realize I wouldn't act in such a manner in real life.

 

But I think Feathered had a valid question where it might involve an online scenario. It brings interesting possibilities about ethics vs winning at all costs to mind.

[wtornado]

Please do not link to Holocaust denial websites.

Oh sorry I did not look that far on that site I went back and looked.

 

Pretty bad.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

The Battle of Britain shows the snowballing sh*testorm led by disrespecting the red cross.

 

During cross-Channel engagements, German floatplanes sporting red crosses would pick up downed airmen on the Channel. Initially the RAF respected the Luftwaffe red-crosser, and things went smoothly.

 

Eventually however, an order was issued to shoot down air ambulances partially to prevent German pilots from returning to their units, and partially to prevent intelligence from being collected by the air ambulances (something widely suspected given the proximity of valuable assets to the combat zones).

 

One fine day, and I don't know how factual this is, a German floatplane came down to pick up pilots after an engagement as usual. It landed, picked up a German pilot and did the courtesy of picking up a British one as well from the freezing cold waters. The man had gone from KIA to POW, which although unpleasant was an improvement. Anyhow, the SAR aircraft takes off on its way back and lo and behold the RAF comes and following the directives, shoots down the aircraft, with the British pilot inside.

 

 

Yes indeed.  It's funny, I've never seen anyone else tell that story.  Such things should not be forgotten.

[DD_Arthur]

Do anyone know a good read or video of how it was during the extraction from the encircled airfields? I know a bit but not so much in detail how it really went down and how the supplies got to the rest of the german army in Stalingrad

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stalingrad-Antony-Beevor/dp/0141032405/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=antobeev-21&linkCode=w00&linkId=WRKQZIZDCRIYE5V2&creativeASIN=0141032405

[Cybermat47]

I wouldn't, because immersion makes the game more fun in my opinion.

 

But if I'm flying a red cross Ju-52 and I get shot down, I'll just respawn without any fuss.

[seafireliv]

I wouldn`t shoot a red cross enemy aircraft unless I saw it do something definitely un red-cross, like dropping paratroops into friendly terrirtory. And telling me they were just returning POWs wouldn`t work!

Edited August 4, 2016 by seafireliv

[Mac_Messer]

Ofcourse not. It feels wrong and against the rules. In real life wouldn`t do it either.

 

Instead I`d probably shadow him to get vis on some legitimate targets.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

How about an "Honour Rating" including Ramming, Ambulance killing, Chute Killing, Vulching etc. 

On a Server like DED or TAW once a certain level if dishonour is reached, there would be a higher Reward on your head and other ways of punishing dishonourable behaviour indirectly. 

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stalingrad-Antony-Beevor/dp/0141032405/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=antobeev-21&linkCode=w00&linkId=WRKQZIZDCRIYE5V2&creativeASIN=0141032405

Thank you