Let's get nasty

[Emgy]

Just food for thought. Since we all want some genuine realism with this sim (and are getting it !)

 

Cmdr Thomas Blackburn of VF 17 (11 kills, 10 of them fighters) wrote in his book that downing enemy pilots was the important thing no matter how one got them. (he was a chute shooter supporter)

And you also find pilots that disagreed with him. There's a story about Hartmann dangling in his parachute, and some P-51 pilot flies by to take a photo and wave at him. I guess it's up to each and one of us if we want to role-play that kind of pilot.

And Hagar's question is relevant: are there historical examples of "knights in the skies" on the East front, is there any historical reason for roleplaying a gentleman pilot?

[Panzerlang]

Interesting. Do the members here know that you conduct detailed video and psychological surveillance and analysis of them?

I only assume you do this given the certainty of your statement above. Surely you wouldn't say such a strong thing without empirical evidence. Unless, of course, it was merely your humble opinion? But then surely you would not stoop to such insults, knowing that they are baseless and unworthy of anyone attempting to uphold moral standards on a computer game forum?

Hmm, I find the matter of your post most perplexing.

 

You probably need to think about it a bit more then.

 

Why would somebody do it? Because it's "fun"? What part of it is 'fun'? Seeing a 'chute collapse? Or knowing the person it's been done to is probably at least a little pissed off about it (I'm assuming an online war here where the players care about their virtual lives).

 

To do it, knowing it has no actual purpose but is very likely pissing off the victim, provides a self-explanatory context. Hence the opinion I posted.

 

Obviously, in any other scenario other than an online war it's matters not a jot. Obviously. Did I mention obviously?

 

Like I said, think about it. It's not even rocket-science, never mind psychology-101.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Killing guys in their 'chutes will be fun. Until it's you with a multi-week/month persona with lots of kills and baubles and somebody does it to you.

 

 

It's a simulation of war.

 

War is hell.

 

It's your job to kill your enemy so that he does not kill you our your comrades.

 

While I don't go out of my way to kill players that have bailed out, I will always press an attack  to make sure his aircraft is not going home  That usually means he won't be bailing out.

If the server counts pilot deaths towards the victory condition (very gamey I admit) then the pilot is, and always will be, a target.

 

It' just like shooting a vehicle on the ground that is marked as an ambulance.  They are worth the same as a regular truck, so they get shot up.

 

Like I said, war is hell.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ElAurens

[Panzerlang]

If enemy pilot death is made a part of the victory points and he's behind his own lines then it serves a valid purpose. I'm not aware of any previous wars that have had such a condition though.

 

Maybe one or some of the self-confessed 'chute killers could explain to us why they do it? If the answer is "it's fun" could they elucidate?

[von_Tom]

 

 

What a load of BS justification for chute shooting.

 

It's war.

 

You're stopping them getting in a new plane.

 

Blah blah blah

 

Here's some news - it's. a. game. Get shot down, bail and hit refly. Shooting a digital avatar in a game doesn't end anyone's life.

 

Maybe if BoS follows the kill streak pattern then it might have some effect but really, trying to justify it by reference to a real war where people actually died? Come on....

 

I reckon Siggi has it right.

 

To the OP, no you shouldn't use the real Stalingrad as your morality benchmark for game playing purposes.

 

Rather, use your own morality.

 

Hood

[thx1138]

If enemy pilot death is made a part of the victory points and he's behind his own lines then it serves a valid purpose. I'm not aware of any previous wars that have had such a condition though.

 

Maybe one or some of the self-confessed 'chute killers could explain to us why they do it? If the answer is "it's fun" could they elucidate?

 

 

When the enemy was down to around 10 pilots and around 20 aircraft with 20 minutes to go on the server, you went for them all...

 

 

I come from the online first person shooter world and look at combat sims the same way. It's me against the other player. The aircraft in this instance is just another vehicle/weapon system available to help me get him and help him get me. Nothing more nothing less. But it's still me against him. No such thing as leaving wounded enemy in BF 3, same here... In all honesty it's an only after you know no one else can get you then you do it, or your oponent was that good kinda thing. Normally I just either run home or keep flying the mission after a kill, I don't make chute shooting a must do thing at all. Personally I like vulching more, YMMV.

[BlitzPig_EL]

It's not "vulching", it's ground attack, and it's perfectly valid.

 

If your team cannot organize a defense of their own airfield because they are all off playing virtual Hartmann, then they deserve what happens to their home plate.

[von_Tom]

 

Justifying it by reference to an FPS is just as bad.

 

If you're wounded in BF4 you can still kill. Dangling in a chute cramps your killing abilities.

 

Hood

[Panzerlang]

Given the fact that going after a 'chute in a combat zone exposes the pilot to danger and assuming it serves no victory-point/condition purpose, one can only conclude it serves some personal purpose. The only logical one I am able to surmise is one of spite/malice.

 

But I'm happy and interested to be educated otherwise on the point.

[thx1138]

It's not "vulching", it's ground attack, and it's perfectly valid.

 

If your team cannot organize a defense of their own airfield because they are all off playing virtual Hartmann, then they deserve what happens to their home plate.

 

Thank you for correcting me. Add to what you write with some good server airfield AAA and all of a sudden vulching, I mean ground attack becomes rather sporty.

 

Everyone has their own way of making games fun. Who am I to judge what they do is right or wrong as long  as they are following the rules and not cheating.

[Sethos]

Justifying it by reference to an FPS is just as bad.

 

If you're wounded in BF4 you can still kill. Dangling in a chute cramps your killing abilities.

 

Hood

 

Standing in open terrain as an assault class versus a tank cramps your killing abilities.

 

Standing on the ground with a slew of snipers on the roofs just hailing down on you cramps your killing abilities.

 

Being chased by a helicopter when not being an engineer with a stinger cramps your killing abilities.

 

Running out of ammunition because no support wants to drop some ammo cramps your killing abilities.

 

The two-second black screen when spawning in the middle of combat making you unable to fight back cramps your killing abilities. 

 

Just spawning on a squadmate in the middle of combat and dying straight away cramps your killing abilities.

 

The client-side hit detection being as reliable as an old Skoda cramps your killing abilities. 

 

 

I think some people just take this way, way too seriously. We're almost into rivet counting territory. 

 

It's a game and the online experience is very simple; Kill the other guy before he kills you. So what if he lets you limp home, shoots you down or pokes holes in your parachute? It's so completely irrelevant. I see it as a first-person shooter, you died and now you can wait to respawn. Clinging on to 'gentleman behaviour' and always wanting the game to be completely fair is naive. 

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sethos

[J5_Rumey]

Also usually with people wanting these rules like "not shooting while already out of fight or in parachute" behaviour and so on, the funny thing it does not seem to apply to themselves.

 

Lets face it it is just a way for them to keep their streak and being able to discredit anyone shooting them down making them loose their streak.

 

Online game: no real damage done except to inflated egos

[von_Tom]

 

 

It's just a question of doing what your own morality lets you do. If that means letting someone limp home then great. If it means shooting someone in their chute, great.

 

Trying to justify it just leads to an epic fail.

 

Hood

[Karost]

Sever Rules is the primary condition every one agree to follow before enter to the mission if you break to rules you will be kick or ban ... that is a real life    for what we playing on online DF Server. You can try  on hyperLobby now

 

Some Server has a  Rules for a reason like war-cloud has score-system  dead is dead  which mean virtual pilot life is very import that player have to concern.

 

But other server may have a difference Rules like allow to play nasty then there is no problem. you have a freedom to kill pilot that hanging on parachute like a history or just fly pass like a good pilot in history  .

 

So...if you like to play nasty just host server by yourself so the freedom is your  or If you found server have a title like " Nasty player are welcome...." so go and get em.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Karost

[Furio]

As many have already said, it’s a game, not a war. In a game, like in a sport, anyone can recognize fair play. Our game is a combat simulation, true, but this doesn’t rule out fair play. 

[BigMotor]

Don't worry about bailing out. 1C/777 will give us the option to buy a large defensive weapon in the BOS store.

[Panzerlang]

If I'm in an online war, regardless of whether or not killing the enemy pilot scores me extra points, I will not kill him in his 'chute. If I happen to know he's on a persona with many kills and baubles I'd be even less inclined to do it.

 

Why? Because to know I'd caused a fellow gamer the kind of potential unhappiness that would go with it would sicken me. My pleasure would come from the knowledge I'd bested him, not in causing him RL pain.

 

I'm sure there are those who don't care about losing a 'valuable' online persona but I believe they're a minority. Human nature is pretty much an "ever fix'd mark".

 

RL empathy, and morality thereof, most certainly can and do apply to online gaming. Don't cause unhappiness just to gratify your own need for pleasure.

[Sokol1]

 

should pilots complain if they are pursued without mercy

 

This mean that we can shoot the parachutes?

 

I love shoot parachutes in the morning, the dead guy hanging in then seems like a victory! (Better if are players who will cry in chat).

 

Sokol1

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

[HagarTheHorrible]

Should bailing out of enemy territory result in death nine times out of ten.  I can't imagine enemy pilots being captured had a very good survival ratio, on either side, does anyone know what the averages were ?

 

Should server rules be swayed by the conditions found on the Eastern front.  That's not to say, if they are particularily murderous, everyone should drop to that level, but if they do they can claim justification ?

[HagarTheHorrible]

 

 

As long as everyone argues, sorry debates, the facts, should the actual conditions we seek to recreate influence how we play the game, and as a result what rules are imposed by servers, there is really no reason to lock the thread. It is a justified line of intermelectual debate, is it not ?

Edited November 24, 2013 by HagarTheHorrible

[BlitzPig_EL]

Hagar,  you are overthinking this, a lot.

 

It's a game.

 

Really it is.

 

Getting all tangled up in moral imperative will only make your head explode in the end.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Yeah, just put it up joking.

I have no position on this, people will play the way they want. Its a game with a refly button.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Blackwolf

[HagarTheHorrible]

Hagar,  you are overthinking this, a lot.

 

It's a game.

 

Really it is.

 

Getting all tangled up in moral imperative will only make your head explode in the end.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

It's just interesting, as an intellectual exercise (for someone of limited intermelectuallity, such as myself) to debate various aspects of what we do.  I'm sure many of us are not only interested in the game, flying bit, shooting bit, but also the history and characters behind the events depicted.

Edited November 24, 2013 by HagarTheHorrible

[6high]

Now the really interesting bit would be how many of these threads we`ve seen since Oct. 2001. Anyone count?

Luckily Den Haag has no saying here...

[Mac_Messer]

does saying "I'm only acting out reality" cut the mustard ?

No, because it`s not war, it`s a game. It`s a sport. You play fair respectfully and by the rules. If you can`t stomache that you better be doing something else.

[Sokol1]

 

 

Sokol1

[thx1138]

 

 

Sokol1

 

 

+1 !!

 

[DD_bongodriver]

Morality

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpTqzEhL5Dg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT241fH-l-4

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMGvOxsTj3k

 

This crap is endless

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Suddenly chute shooting doesn't seem so bad.   

[SR-F_Winger]

ROF teached me: Shoot till hes either dead or incapacitated. And for me at least learning that gave me quite a lot of grey hair.

Shooting the chute would be another thing. I am not sure yet but i think it COULD happen at times that i do so:). Depends. Anyhow - nothing personal, just a sim *g*

[Volkoff]

I often let my crippled adversary go at the last minute. It's generally because I'm a lousy shot and I've used up all my ammo. A waggle of the wings and a salute and off I go before he can turn and bring his guns to bare!

 

+1 Once you are pretty sure your opponent is about to lose engine power and have to ditch or he parachuttes out of his plane, you are just wasting ammo by continuing the attack. Sure, you can go all the way and sim kill the guy, but he will return, again and again, like a BSG Cylon Raider.  MJ

 

.

 

Your opponents are like John Charpenter's conception of evil. In a Charpenter movie, you can delay evil, but never kill it. The same rule applies to flight sim opponents:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCG5jVUcnBY

Edited November 24, 2013 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[senseispcc]

In a game killing a enemy that is near dead or at the end of his parachute as no meaning like in real life so why do it be a gentlemen because if you do it he shall in any case come back and take is vengeance...it is a game not real live the bastards respawn.  

 

[=LD=dhyran]

Guys you're all missing the point.

 

The topic is, should the way the war was fought on the Eastern front dictate or excuse the manner in which some players may wish to play the game if they play nasty ?

 

No, because you simple can't imagine what really happens at the real battle of Stalingrad! Fact, noone really ever can! My grandfather was with the six army there, he survieved, but he was not able to speak about it for around 50 years, he said one day, whatever it was, it was no war, it was the pure hell on earth! And his greatest wish was allways, something like that should never happend again! One thing, that i still remember, they couldn't steer theis tanks, becasue frozen humans bodys and bones were in the chains and wheels, so they had to clean it! Can you imagine that?

So don't bring such childish thought about a game can be played like it was fought in real life into here! Doing so, you only shows a narrow, childish, point of view about the WW 2, nothing else!

 

This is a game, play it as one, having fun together if you fight together or against each other! It will be a game still, so lets enjoy it what it is!

Edited November 24, 2013 by =LD=dhyran

[Tomsk]

Personally, shoot down crippled enemies, or escort them home .. shoot the chute, or drop him some rations so he doesn't get hungry waiting to be picked up. It's a game, it doesn't matter.

 

The real mark of gentlemanly conduct in a sim is how we treat other players. Congratulating the guy that got you on his victory ... telling the guy you just defeated how well he flew. Letting a teammate finish his kill, and instead covering his six while he makes his attack. Abandoning your kill to help a teammate in trouble. Being polite and considerate. These are the marks of a true gentleman sim-pilot.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Tomsk

[Revvin]

Raaaid will make sense of this all, I know he will

[=38=Tatarenko]

It's not "vulching", it's ground attack, and it's perfectly valid.

 

If your team cannot organize a defense of their own airfield because they are all off playing virtual Hartmann, then they deserve what happens to their home plate.

 

Yes yes this.

 

That's why in real life Pitomnik (airbase near Stalingrad) had a Platzschutzstaffel (Airfield Protection Flight/Sqn) to ward off attacks on all the transports etc.

 

(And I don't shoot chutes at all)

Edited November 24, 2013 by =38=Tatarenko

[dkoor]

Supposed, real life, examples of gentlemanly conduct between pilots in the West are often cited as reasons why players online should also act in a dignified and gentlemanly fashion. What if that wasn't the case in the East,

No. This is not true.

 

What are your sources that led you to believe that?

 

I can point you to an exact example of one occasion where Croatian pilot spared the life of blonde Soviet youngster in LaGG-3.

Chap didn't wear the helmet and flew straight without any maneuvers so Croat could clearly saw whom is he going to kill if he fired.

Instead of firing he waved on paralysed Soviet youngster who saw him by that time and broke off from his intended attack..

 

I also vividly remember reading about several instances where parachuted pilots captured on the ground weren't greeted by 7,62mm but by cigarette.

 

Not sure where people get the ideas of a war without any mercy in the first place.

If you think for a second that there isn't one person among millions who is willing to act mercifully I think you'd find it highly unlikely, maybe right word is impossible.

 

But yeah, it's perhaps more exciting to think that they all were monsters tearing each other apart.

[usr]

Be nice and don't expect others to be. People who loudly complain about being denied some courtesy are just as annoying as those they complain about. (Now where does this leave me? I think i might have just done some compaining!)

[pixelshader]

just play to win