Some DM suggestions for engines and cockpits

[Kling]

Rise of flight has some of the best DM i have seen in any flight sim.

But since WW2 brings more complicated engines and systems...

Here are some things i would like to see mainly for the engine and cockpit system.. on top of the already superb DMs im sure will already be in.

 

1. Radiator damage. Leading to an increase in cooling temp. 109s had two radiators where one can be switched off etc... With this suggestion also comes glycol leaks when the Glycol tank is hit... I.e long white smoke leaking out...

 

2. Oil system damage.. Leading to leaks of various sizes and increasing oil temps. Oil over canopy or fuselage visible from inside and for players around you would be cool..

 

3. Cylinder damage. Loss of performance and probably increase in oil temp a oil is leaking out as well...

 

4. Fuel leaks of various sizes..

 

5. Oxygen bottle leak/explosions when hit. Leading to blackout if at high altitude..

 

 

Well, feel free to fill in the rest

[ATAG_Slipstream]

RoF has got on just fine for years without cockpit damage. . They get around it by the pilot being wounded and losing vision. For the engine damage you can just have a bit of oil spray your windshield, that tells you its time to go home or land quick.Seems the easiest option to take, without wasting time and resources on frivolous stuff.

I know BoS is not RoF but the engine will be similar.

Edited December 19, 2012 by JG52Uther

[SKG51_robtek]

It is the "frivolous stuff" that brings life and immersion into a sim.

Much needed, imho.

As much as dev-time and money allows.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Bullet holes in the canopy and instruments are a nice touch though....with some affects like sparks, sound affects would be cool.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Yes it does robtek, but we have already been told we will get less, so might as well accept it now.

[Krupi]

What!!!! Uther they can't do the same as ROF cockpit damage is needed in my honest opinion.

 

There was nothing more fun than trying to nurse your badly damaged aircraft back home and desperately looking for the gauge that was still working or trying to see a needle through a cracked screen to check your temperatures and engine pressure. This was in the original il2 :o

 

I can let it go for ww1, the pilots were so exposed but it's not the case in ww2

Edited December 19, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[ATAG_Slipstream]

They have to work with what they have, no need to delay the game for X amount of months just to put cockpit damage in when you can just wound the pilot so he can't see the damage anyway.

[Kling]

Personally i would love to have a look at my instruments after i know that I have taken some hits... Scanning the instruments for something abnormal. This is already in ROF.. And one can see the oil temp rising or cooling liquid leaks leading to an increase of engine temp until engine fails... Its just that we have more and more complex systems in ww2.

 

I like the ROF idea of oil in your face when you have recieved an oil leak. Maybe in BOS it can be

a constant flow of oil splashing on the canopy..

Would look cool. But not every oil leak will lead to oil on the canopy...

[DD_fruitbat]

Yes it does robtek, but we have already been told we will get less, so might as well accept it now.

 

And theres your christmas present gents, Ho Ho Ho......

[Krupi]

They have to work with what they have, no need to delay the game for X amount of months just to put cockpit damage in when you can just wound the pilot so he can't see the damage anyway.

Well if that's the case they best remove il2 from the title, even the console il2 had cockpit damage.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

We have no idea what they will do. As im sure people know.

[Krupi]

These "frivolous" features are what made the original il2 stand out of the crowd...they might as well go back to ROF right now if they can't even give us the basic stuff from il2.

 

I am sure this will not be the case.

[Bearcat]

Did any of you guys read that interview at SHQ by Al Z? It is pretty informative. I wouldn't get my shorts in a knot about anything till the sim is at least almost dine and we bave more info. As it stands now we have no idea what will be in BoS or exactly how it will be implemented. 

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Well lets hope so krupi, but we all know what happens when devs get caught up in all sorts of unneccessary stuff the community asks for or demands.

[Bearcat]

Which IMO is a good thing. It seems that the devs have a plan that they are sticking to. That interview Klunk posted from SHQ really was an optimism booster for me. They seem to have a great plan and a sustainable business model that will keep them going and it seems to place a lot of the onus on us as the simmers to support it but it doesn't look to me like they will be throwing half baked goods at us.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I think you're right Bearcat. The devs will have a very firm idea of what they want to do, and their deadline. They won't be distracted by unneccessary fluff.For me, the most important thing is stability (no CTDs etc) and I don't care if the P40 has the FM of a Sopwith Camel, and a 109 flies like an Albatros. All that can be fixed sometime later. Cockpit and detailed engine damage is way down the list when there is already a system (pilot wounded/oil on canopy) in place to take care of that for now.

[VaeTibi]

And theres your christmas present gents, Ho Ho Ho......

Edited December 19, 2012 by VaeTibi

[DD_fruitbat]

Lol :-)

[SYN_Mike77]

going back to the OP, except for physical damage of the cockpit (and the O2 hits) all of that is in RoF now.  We have different color smoke for different types of leaks and you can lose oil, overheat and check your qauges for what is wrong (in the limited sense of what their was in WWI).   If you enjoy nursing a damaged plane back for emergency landing you can find lots of fun right now in RoF.  (Beleve me, I know!  Having nursed many a stricken craft back.)  I'm am quite confident that this will all be modeled in BoS as well.

Edited December 19, 2012 by SYN_Mike77

[Krupi]

I am starting to get back into rof but one thing that is on my mind at the moment is aircraft surface wires, can they be severed in ROF I can't recall loosing a surface control.

 

Obviously I have had them shot off but I can't recall loosing control and still having the elevator, aileron and rudder physically there, on the other hand I have lost count of the number of times those bloody bofors knocked out my 109s elevator control leaving me to fight with the elevator trim all the way back to France, bloody difficult but a huge sense of achievement if you make it.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

No, it's a limitation of the current DM in RoF: as long as your control surfaces are still physically attached, you can use them - even if they're completely mangled. The effect they have on the plane will change though, if they are disformed.

Edited December 19, 2012 by hq_Jorri

[Krupi]

You have got to be kidding me... what the hell!

[Kling]

Hm... I think i had my elevators attached but was not able to use them... Not sure though...

 

For the rest, GUYS PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD SUGGESTIONS OR IDEAS!!

[wiseblood]

You have got to be kidding me... what the hell!

 

Nah, the ROF system is pretty rad on it's own.

 

Stuff like this - for instance

 

 

 

or this one -

 

 

 

 

 

It's not 100% perfect but 99% of the time you end up flying something that flies just like it looks. So that N.28 of mine that ran into debris wouldn't stop shaking and had really weird asymmetric aileron response from the right aileron only, which combined with the rotary torque made it pretty tough to keep flying. Didn't ever lose the outer upper right wing, it just stuck around making life interesting.

 

Again I think you might be confusing ROF for Il-2 somehow - generally you are taking damage from .303 rounds at the largest, there is like one gun in the whole game you are at all likely to be hit by that fires anything explosive, and just about everything (actually pretty sure literally everything?) uses wires rather than hydraulics or rods. Besides which I was never that convinced by Il-2's (pre Clod at least) idea of what it would take to damage a control cable, there is a reason wire cutters rather than bullets are used to get through fences

Edited December 19, 2012 by wiseblood

[150GCT_Veltro]

Cockpit damaged? What about pilot "damaged" as DT did for 1946? The second one is more important i think, and it doesn't require 3D and textures rework.

[Krupi]

Yeah very rad... no cockpit or cable damage.

 

Yes the physics engine is clearly impressive but clearly some of the very basic and important things are missing.

 

If you spray and aircraft with bullets you likely to break a few of the cables... hit it with a cannon shell now thats when I would expect a chunk of aileron to break off.

Edited December 19, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[SYN_Mike77]

Pilot damage is modeled in RoF.  Both visibly and in the actions you can perform.  When you are badly wounded it takes a great deal of work to change the direction in any way of the plane.  As to wires, I don't know for sure but but I am pretty sure I have lost the wire bracing on the wings so it might be possible to lose control wires.  I also know that I have had some control surfaces quit working but I can't tell you if that was from control wires being shot through or if the surface its self had been damaged. 

[wiseblood]

Yeah very rad... no cockpit or cable damage.

 

Yes the physics engine is clearly impressive but clearly some of the very basic and important things are missing.

 

If you spray and aircraft with bullets you likely to break a few of the cables... hit it with a cannon shell now thats when I would expect a chunk of aileron to break off.

 

 

Relax!

 

I personally have no idea what BoS will include on this front - however I posted those to show that the engine they're starting with is quite capable of representing control damage (and derivatives where control damage leads to altered flight which leads to more control damage and so on).  All those connections between parts are physics based, the engine itself only really cares how strong those connections are and which other objects they're link to. 

 

So there's no reason they couldn't rework this so that the internal connections (rods/etc) are linked to this model rather than it being mainly an external visual model system, or something similar.  Personally I doubt that breaking wires with .303s at a distance was really the #1 objective when the ROF damage data was plugged in, and that's probably why it prioritises things like spars being broken and fabric surfaces being ripped instead.  Cockpit damage is probably the same - there are various things that alter the appearance of the cockpits in ROF, but probably when they built the data plugged into the engine, it was considered that in an open pit you'd kill the pilot first anyway.

Edited December 19, 2012 by wiseblood

[Krupi]

Yeah, I can understand why they wouldn't care much about the cockpit for a ww1 aircraft but these aircraft were kept in the air by cables so it was a bit of a surprise to hear that control cables were not modelled for damage.

 

Anyway you are correct lets see what they give us

[AndyJWest]

Regarding damage to control cables in RoF, I noticed online tonight after engaging a Gotha with my Brisfit, and then sideslipping a little too enthusiastically to get back down to base quickly with the inevitable dead engine, that when an aileron on  a damaged wing came off,  :o the remaining one on that side ceased working, as indeed it should. It appears that the DM is in principle capable of handling this sort of issue, though it may not always have been included. 

Edited December 21, 2012 by AndyJWest

[hegykc]

After seeing some videos over at the ROF forum, I am speechless over the physical model.. absolutely amazing.

 

I actually prefer DCS level of complexity, so a study sim. But, cven if they can't match CLOD in systems complexity and stuff, I think that ROF physical damage model is more than enough to make up for it.

Think of it as a trade off, well worth it.

[AdlerAngriff]

Why don't we just wait for the pics and more info?? And further development. I have a feeling that when the time comes we will be pleasently surprised. We all know that right now is not the time for a revolutionary sim of our dreams. But hey....why doesn't this become a nice stepping stone

 

Similar to does not mean exactly the same. And it is a subjective measuring tool.

Edited December 21, 2012 by AdlerAngriff

[Ribbs]

Bullet holes in the canopy and instruments are a nice touch though....with some affects like sparks, sound affects would be cool.

Something like this furbs?...skip to the 2:55 mark. :D

 

 

 

Just wanted to clarify.. that that effect isn't in CLOD.. it was added in by barfly. I am just using it as an example of what furbs was describing. It would be awesome if something to that effect with the sparks , smoke and dust could be implemented.. along with some sort of slight shock or blurred vision.. to that effect...if you watch closely you see it happen when the bullets hit.

Edited December 21, 2012 by 352ndRibbs

[FlatSpinMan]

That's really cool.

[Catseye]

snip . . . .

 

3. Cylinder damage. Loss of performance and probably increase in oil temp a oil is leaking out as well...

 

 

Something that I thought was a very nice touch in COD (IMHO a very carefull technical model well designed), was that when a cylinder was damaged, that exhaust stack changed from a Blue flame to a yellow flame. You could count which cylinder was at issue just by leaning slightly outside the cockpit. When flying at night, this took on a whole complete other dimension that had a tremendous increase in the state of the "suspension of disbelief".

[Kling]

Something that I thought was a very nice touch in COD (IMHO a very carefull technical model well designed), was that when a cylinder was damaged, that exhaust stack changed from a Blue flame to a yellow flame. You could count which cylinder was at issue just by leaning slightly outside the cockpit. When flying at night, this took on a whole complete other dimension that had a tremendous increase in the state of the "suspension of disbelief".

Hmm really?!? Never thought about that! If true it is really really cool!!

[Catseye]

Hmm really?!? Never thought about that! If true it is really really cool!!

 

Hi Kling,

Yup, it's true.

 

If you still fly that sim and get a hit in the engine and it is knocking away, check the exhaust flames and see if any one of them is different than the others. It was a major WOW! experience for me and others when we noticed this.

 

Cheers

Edited December 27, 2012 by Catseye