Developer Diary, Part 129 - Discussion

[GrendelsDad]

Its much easier to come in here and just present feelings.

[Irgendjemand]

There's nothing stopping you flying either side, or any aircraft (you own), except yourself.

 

And I would say the 109f4 is the ' best' currently. So what if it becomes second best, maybe it's about time the fighter superiority moved over...

If history would write that was the case it wouldnt be a problem. But this calls itself sim and doesnt SIMulate the history that actually took place. 

Enought now. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Brano]

Datas I have posted here are not somewhat accurate but given by NII VVS trials of several serial built Yak-1b of 1943 production. Values are within reasonable tolerance margin reflecting improved built quality of Saratov Zavod nr.292. I dont know which series will devs take as etalon. I do not have access to particular test reports but this is an example from A.T.Stepanec book about Yaks:

 

Yak-1 M-105PF with improved aerodynamics N 46-139 overperfomed Me-109G-2 (standard weapons 2xMG+1 Canon) from ground level to 2000m by 15km/h,up to 3900-4200m by 5km/h.At higher altitudes Yak was losing performance and at 7000m difference of speed was 96km/h.

Despite large difference in max speed at high altitudes,Me-109G-2 did not have any significant advantage over Yak in terms of maneuverability...

 

 Btw Me-109G-2 mentioned in this comparison test was the captured Soviet one. At Kurfirst site it is written that soviet test result matched pretty close with original german tests.

 I will cite from Kurfirst site,if he dont mind: http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109G1-6_datasheet/109G_perftable_EN.html

 

The given figures for the G-2/R2 is given below as 523 kph at SL, nd 652 kph at 6700m, which are in very close agreement with :

the official Messerschmitt AG. specifications as of May 1942 for the G-1 (537/660 kph)

performance trials performed on a G-1 at E-Stelle Rechlin in 1943 (525/650 kph)

performance trials performed on a Soviet-captured G-2 in early 1943 (527/666kph)

performance trials performed by the Erla factory on 13 serial production Bf 109Gs (652 kph on avarage)

[Danziger]

If history would write that was the case it wouldnt be a problem. But this calls itself sim and doesnt SIMulate the history that actually took place.

Enought now.

I think they SIMulate it pretty well. Maybe you should re-check your history because everything I've ever read says Germany lost...

[StG2_Manfred]

Devs have acknowledged the 190 Bar issue. Implementing refraction in the view as per what happens in real life with thick glass was stated as not feasible with the current game engine.

 

With the announcement of a dx11 upgrade, let's hope that it may have the graphical functions/features to implement the glass refraction without a huge framerate hit?

Refraction isn't needed, it would be enough to make the bars thinner, if you would like to solve it. Other sims did it that way and it was ok - that easy. But with the current iteration of the Focke the bars are the smallest problem me thinks

[LukeFF]

Rather "tell me a truth".

 

The Yak-1B was a good plane, there's no way around that. The rest of your post was nothing but over-the-top melodramatic rhetoric.

Edited August 2, 2016 by LukeFF

[Irgendjemand]

I think they SIMulate it pretty well. Maybe you should re-check your history because everything I've ever read says Germany lost...

[Edited]

 

Please refrain from name calling.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Bearcat

[Dakpilot]

[Edited]

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited August 3, 2016 by Bearcat

[kestrel79]

Really looking forward to the JU-52, just give us some gameplay to use it.

 

Drop troops, supplies, flying important people, stuff like that will really be fun.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Playing LW is easy mode by default every knows that and most admit that

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You obviously haven't tried to master the Fw. It is great fun, a much bigger challenge than all but maybe the LaGG and very satisfying to find success in. I do agree with your evaluation as it pertains to the 109.

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Haven't flown her much so she slipped my mind. You can easily substitute P-40 for LaGG in my post.

 

Cheers

[Jade_Monkey]

The yak isn't even out yet and people are already bitching?

[Brano]

Not people,only usual suspects. There's no party without party poopers :D

[Jade_Monkey]

LOL.

 

Not that the performance of any Yak would have helped much when you gunpodded me that time in F/SNBF. I do like the idea of the bubble canopy on the -1b, but what I really could use is an AWACS!

That was a fluke. I was flying on your blind spot. I wouldn't get you in a million years on a 1v1. Im more of a bomber pilot.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I'd love if LW was easy mode for me. I have a better chance of getting a GF than having a fighter escort me in my 110.

[PatrickAWlson]

I hate to break the news to you, but those of us who mainly fly for the VVS are not getting paid to be massacred so that you can enjoy the high-fidelity 'Erich Hartmann Experience'. Until we are, I think we've got a reasonable expectation to have some fun here too.

 

While a few of these 'historical accuracy' complaints have technical merit, the fact that they are always from the hard-core LW fans tells me that the real issue is some people just want a ROFLSTOMP at our expense. Well, I'm sorry but you are out of luck because we didn't sign up for that. If this sim isn't fun for you and doesn't at least give you a sense of what it was like to fly for the Luftwaffe then I think you are looking for something that a multiplayer game, by design, cannot provide.

 

It's a tough situation for the developers.  This is a flight simulator, so people expect the virtual planes to fly something like the real ones.  The Germans had better planes.  The Russians had more.  The Germans shot down way more Russians than vice versa.  The Russians won anyway because running up kill scores is only one small aspect - and by far NOT the most important one - of air combat.

 

In real life Russian pilots were paid precisely to get massacred while German pilots enjoyed their Hartmann experience.  More to the point, they were paid to win regardless of cost, and they did.

 

I don't think that people are going to feel competitive until online servers reflect this and the community accepts their role as part of a bigger picture.  I know that several servers are trying.  Give the Russians more spots.  Make win/loss about ground based tactical losses.  Then the Russians not only have a chance but an actual advantage.  They're still going to lose more planes but they will probably win the contest.  The fun on the Russian side comes from being part of the winning team and not necessarily from being the star performer.

 

If that is not acceptable I'm not sure what the developers could do.  They're damned if the make the plane set non-historically even and they are damned if the make the plane set historically uneven.

[Jason_Williams]

It's a tough situation for the developers.  This is a flight simulator, so people expect the virtual planes to fly something like the real ones.  The Germans had better planes.  The Russians had more.  The Germans shot down way more Russians than vice versa.  The Russians won anyway because running up kill scores is only one small aspect - and by far NOT the most important one - of air combat.

 

In real life Russian pilots were paid precisely to get massacred while German pilots enjoyed their Hartmann experience.  More to the point, they were paid to win regardless of cost, and they did.

 

I don't think that people are going to feel competitive until online servers reflect this and the community accepts their role as part of a bigger picture.  I know that several servers are trying.  Give the Russians more spots.  Make win/loss about ground based tactical losses.  Then the Russians not only have a chance but an actual advantage.  They're still going to lose more planes but they will probably win the contest.  The fun on the Russian side comes from being part of the winning team and not necessarily from being the star performer.

 

If that is not acceptable I'm not sure what the developers could do.  They're damned if the make the plane set non-historically even and they are damned if the make the plane set historically uneven.

 

Well said Pat. If we end up making more Eastern Front battles the plane-set will likely advance and the Soviet planes will be on a more equal footing with the Germans and maybe that will be more fun for flyers.

 

Jason

[Danziger]

Omg the LW Fighters only guys will lose their [Edited] lol.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Bearcat

[Danziger]

I'm sure you guys know what I mean. The usual suspects will raise a fuss when anything challenges the superiority of their 109/190.

[Chief_Mouser]

Well said Pat. If we end up making more Eastern Front battles the plane-set will likely advance and the Soviet planes will be on a more equal footing with the Germans and maybe that will be more fun for flyers.

 

Jason

 

You know what's fun for me Jason? Getting our Il-2s into the target area, knocking the stuffing out of a few tanks and suchlike and getting away back to base - either because the enemy fighters never found us or we had a good escort who kept them off. Ok, it takes all sorts, but a lot of us ground-pounders have a good time anyway. And if we get shot down? There's always next time. Incidentally, could you please do something about the overmodelled Luftwaffe trees? We lose far more aircraft to them than any 109 squadron  .

 

Now bring on the Ju52 with some great loadouts and I'll swap sides and try sneaking that into Pitomnik and out again right under the Russians noses.

Cheers.

Edited August 2, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[7.GShAP/Silas]

You know what's fun for me Jason? Getting our Il-2s into the target area, knocking the stuffing out of a few tanks and suchlike and getting away back to base - either because the enemy fighters never found us or we had a good escort who kept them off. Ok, it takes all sorts, but a lot of us ground-pounders have a good time anyway. And if we get shot down? There's always next time. Incidentally, could you please do something about the overmodelled Luftwaffe trees? We lose far more aircraft to them than any 109 squadron  .

 

Now bring on the Ju52 with some great loadouts and I'll swap sides and try sneaking that into Pitomnik and out again right under the Russians noses.

Cheers.

 

 

A man after my own heart.  And those invisible trees will get you, just when you least expect it.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Silas

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The problem is people ignore the fact that absolutely huge numbers of Soviet aircraft were lost due to shoddy tactics and training as much as the quality of equipment and that cannot be replicated in this or any other sim.

 

The German AC do significantly outperform the Soviet in most respects. The Soviet AC do a few things well and good pilots know how to capitalize on those strengths. There are some problems, most minor, with ALL of the AC. Some of that is in the code and some of it is the limitations of the box sitting on your desk. The Devs have stated there will be another FM review but the timeline is likely distant. There are other more pressing items on the to do list.

 

The third thing is the "pilot experience" here. It is vastly different than what either Air Force had to work with IRL. I'd imagine the real aces would pick up on the game rather quickly. On the other hand the technical expertise of sim pilots, within the parameters of the digital game, would do well against the average real pilot sitting down to a flat screen. The expertise in the virtual world, and all that entails, is very high in this crowd. It's two different disciplines.

 

Simply, fight to your and your aircraft's strengths and you will find success in the game - regardless of which side you choose. If you get the other guy to fight to your strengths, especially in the Soviet AC, you will have an excellent chance of defeating him.

 

I suck and that's why I BNZ but it's also why I generally get home safely in a three point stance. I'd rather bag a single AC an hour and live than tangle with three and end up hanging in the risers, though, sometimes I do get my three per hop too.

 

It's also why I don't complain much as a dedicated Luftie.

[pilotpierre]

The problem is people ignore the fact that absolutely huge numbers of Soviet aircraft were lost due to shoddy tactics and training as much as the quality of equipment and that cannot be replicated in this or any other sim.

The German AC do significantly outperform the Soviet in most respects. The Soviet AC do a few things well and good pilots know how to capitalize on those strengths. There are some problems, most minor, with ALL of the AC. Some of that is in the code and some of it is the limitations of the box sitting on your desk. The Devs have stated there will be another FM review but the timeline is likely distant. There are other more pressing items on the to do list.

The third thing is the "pilot experience" here. It is vastly different than what either Air Force had to work with IRL. I'd imagine the real aces would pick up on the game rather quickly. On the other hand the technical expertise of sim pilots, within the parameters of the digital game, would do well against the average real pilot sitting down to a flat screen. The expertise in the virtual world, and all that entails, is very high in this crowd. It's two different disciplines.

Simply, fight to your and your aircraft's strengths and you will find success in the game - regardless of which side you choose. If you get the other guy to fight to your strengths, especially in the Soviet AC, you will have an excellent chance of defeating him.

I suck and that's why I BNZ but it's also why I generally get home safely in a three point stance. I'd rather bag a single AC an hour and live than tangle with three and end up hanging in the risers, though, sometimes I do get my three per hop too.

It's also why I don't complain much as a dedicated Luftie.

Good post mein HerrMurf

[III/JG2Gustav05]

one thing I am just curious that is the full radio set weight included in the VVS aircrafts weight in this sim? not like in real life, all VVS pilots can have radio transmit in this game.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

As an addendum:

 

I sat two real world pilots down at a BBQ last summer to play a Quick Mission 1v1 - 109F vs Yak. Both pilots are over 12,000 hours in civil aviation. It was a clown show and no disrepect to them. Using TrakIR was completely foreign, there is no seat of the pants feel, and no familiarity with the systems. Simple flight was good but my daughter can do that. Air combat ended quickly in a stall fest. Ground attack was a series of misses and lawndarts. Again, my seven year old can line up a truck with a little help. One got the AC on the ground after some nice pattern work and the other stacked it up on the nose and mains.

 

I have hundreds of hours with both pilots and the utmost respect for their real world skills. Both are infinitely better pilots than I am where it counts for something.

 

On their second flights the combat aspect was not much better but both shot decent landings.

 

So, as much as we try to simulate the real world, and I think this sim is doing a pretty good job with improvements on the way, it is not real world. You can take your real world results but they will not transfer 1 to 1 in a sim, ever.

 

The AC are good, the game is good and it is constantly being improved. There is no substitute for; fly your AC to their strengths and you will find success. Unfortunately, for the German pilot, this is true for the virtual Soviet pilot who does not have to work with nearly as many constraints as his real world counterparts did as well.

[ShamrockOneFive]

That's the thing... Russian pilots dealt with some awful problems that we can't simulate. Some types, such as the LaGG and La had engine gasses leaking into the cockpit. Factory fresh cockpit glass was fine but after a month or two exposure they started to yellow and distort. There were other issues with equipment shortages (on both sides) and seized engines due to cold weather. Us sim pilots sit largely in our comfy chairs in our climate controlled houses sipping on a coffee/beer/water/scotch having a good ole time. We're not subjected to any G forces except the ones from prying your seat off the chair at the end of the session.

 

The actual aircraft flying through the air thing is getting pretty good. The other stuff we will never simulate.

[Brano]

With no air conditioning in my apartment I can simulate overheated cockpit of La-5 quite well during these tropical summer days. Add to it chilly con carne for dinner and simulation of exhaust fumes is perfect :D

[Voidhunger]

LOL!

[A_radek]

Reading Russian pilot memoirs is a good way to find out what conditions these people flew in. Regarding aircraft performance, from what I've gathered they were flying these aircraft into combat til the engine was so worn out taking off with a drop tank was next to impossible. In the winter proper shoes were a commodity. On lend lease aircraft American lightbulbs for the gunsights were rare so they only turned it on when needed. I don't think people would appreciate if some of these thing were modeled in-game. Random aircraft performance every time you spawn with the same type of aircraft for instance

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

Well said Pat. If we end up making more Eastern Front battles the plane-set will likely advance and the Soviet planes will be on a more equal footing with the Germans and maybe that will be more fun for flyers.

 

Jason

 

Hopefully we shouldn't expect ONLY eastern front theaters for the future, right....?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Hopefully we shouldn't expect ONLY eastern front theaters for the future, right....?

 

You can tell Jason chose his words very carefully so as not to reveal their future plans before they are ready to reveal them. I don't think you're getting the answer you want here yet.

 

Soon though. They did say August would be when they announce the next chapter/interesting things going on. We should know in under four weeks.

[SYN_Mike77]

 

 

HerrMurf' timestamp='1470184454' post='374545']   The AC are good, the game is good and it is constantly being improved. There is no substitute for; fly your AC to their strengths and you will find success. Unfortunately, for the German pilot, this is true for the virtual Soviet pilot who does not have to work with nearly as many constraints as his real world counterparts did as well.

 

The other difference between BoS/Bom and real life is that the VVS pilots have exactly the same training regimen as the Luftwaffe pilots do.  We also all started the war at the same time. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, technically, the war started for everyone at the same time. It's just that it was something of a surprise for one side.

 

[TP_Silk]

Well, technically, the war started for everyone at the same time. It's just that it was something of a surprise for one side.

 

I guess that depends on how one views it. There is a case for saying that the Luftwaffe's active combat role began during the Spanish CIvil War and continued through the invasion of Poland, the Low Countries and France and then Yugoslavia, Greece and North Africa before moving onto the Eastern Front. Likewise the VVS had a combat role during the Winter War with Finland. Certainly the Luftwaffe was much more used to flying combat missions than the VVS by the time hostilities began.

[JtD]

The Soviets also had Spain, Khalkin Ghol, Poland, occupations following the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact... Just like the Germans, they near constantly were involved in armed conflicts of varying scale. Any lack of combat experience within the Soviet armed forces in the early stages is not a sign of lack of opportunity, but of wasted opportunity.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Someone missed the smiley at the end of that post...............................

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I guess that depends on how one views it. There is a case for saying that the Luftwaffe's active combat role began during the Spanish CIvil War and continued through the invasion of Poland, the Low Countries and France and then Yugoslavia, Greece and North Africa before moving onto the Eastern Front. Likewise the VVS had a combat role during the Winter War with Finland. Certainly the Luftwaffe was much more used to flying combat missions than the VVS by the time hostilities began.

 

 

The Soviets had extensive experience in Spain and their assorted invasions of countries before "the" war started.

[TP_Jacko]

I hope we will also get supply containers and paratroopers for the Ju-52 to give people more incentive to fly the plane. Only flying from one airfield to another might be a little boring in the long run.

Agreed that supply containers are a must have.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

You can tell Jason chose his words very carefully so as not to reveal their future plans before they are ready to reveal them. I don't think you're getting the answer you want here yet.

 

Soon though. They did say August would be when they announce the next chapter/interesting things going on. We should know in under four weeks.

I know, mine was more of a wish... I am of the opinion that a brand new theatre would be very compensating for producers. Just like the Eastern front was when the original Il-2 came out...