Need Moscow order of battle

[PatrickAWlson]

Hi all - need help.  Moscow order of battle for VVS and Luftwaffe.  

Unit (most important)

Aircraft type (any transitions are helpful)

Date of arrival / departure

 

I do not need airfields.  Since the battle lines of PWCG are imperfect and the map itself is imperfect, by definition the airfield assignment will be imperfect.  

 

I have checked the internet and I am just not finding what I want in any coherent form.   There are a lot of guys on this forum that know a lot about this subject, so I'm asking.

 

One other point - the primary frame of reference is the actual battle - October 1941 - April 1942.  But here's something interesting.  After the battle and the German withdrawal in January 1942, the lines stayed mostly static until well into 1943.  This makes the Moscow map viable for much longer than one might expect.  With that in mind, I am happy to take information about units in this area any time through summer of 43.

 

Thanks in advance.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I can help with the VVS. csThor might provide you some useful information on the Luftwaffe side, particularly the fighter units, drop him a message

 

Do you have any specific focus (i.e. Northern Front, Western Front, Kalinin Front, Moscow PVO, etc.) or the whole shebang?

[707shap_Srbin]

I will help with Bf110 units.

[PatrickAWlson]

I can help with the VVS. csThor might provide you some useful information on the Luftwaffe side, particularly the fighter units, drop him a message

 

Do you have any specific focus (i.e. Northern Front, Western Front, Kalinin Front, Moscow PVO, etc.) or the whole shebang?

 

Focus is Oct 1 41 to Jan 10 42.  Pretty much any unit on the map in that time.  I need a mix of fighter/bomber/attack/dive bomb.  Preferably 60-80 squadrons total on both sides or whatever was really there if less (Stalingrad has 85 squadrons),  Most interesting squadrons are the ones that were also at Stalingrad, as those will allow a player to stick with one unit through both battles.

 

My front moves six times.  I have to say though that location is not important as I will not be able to perfectly mimic reality anyway.  Just the units and what they flew.

 

10/1: The Germans occupy the south east quarter of the usable map.

10/20: Advance beyond Rzgev

11/10: Advance towards Kalinin/Moscow

11:20 Furthest advance: Kalinin and Klin are taken

12:15: After Soviet push of 12/5 Germans are pushed back to 11/10 lines

01/10: Germans return to initial lines of 10/1

 

After January 10 the battle can drag n at low intensity until 1943.

[Brano]

VVS units promoted to Guards during BoM

 

VVS BoM_Guards.pdf

Edited July 25, 2016 by Brano

[Dutchvdm]

Hi Pat,

 

The Luftwaffe OOB was already discussed earlier this year.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22220-anyone-got-list-lw-units-flew-moscow-region-during-1941/

 

Stab, I., II., III. and IV./JG 51 - Bf 109 F-2

I. and II./JG 52 - Bf 109 F-2

Stab, II. and III./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-2

15.(span)./JG 27 - Bf 109 E-7

 

II./(Schlacht)/LG 2 - Bf 109 E-7 (ground attack)

II./SKG 210 - Bf 110 E (ground attack)

I. and II./ZG 26 - Bf 110 E (ground attack)

 

Stab, II. and III./StG 1 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2

Stab, I. and III./StG 2 - Ju 87 B-2

Stab, I., II. and III./StG 77 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 (only temporarily)

 

Stab, I. and II./KG 3 -  Ju 88

III./KG 3 - Do-17Z (withdrawn 11/41)

II. and III./KG 4 - He 111 (only temporarily)

Stab, I., II. and III./KG 53 - He 111

Stab, I., II. and III./KG 76 - Ju 88

KGr 100 - He 111 (only temporarily)

 

Credits to CsThor!!

 

I can still cross reference for airfield locations, but that will be later this week.

 

Is that helpfull?

 

Grt M

Edited July 25, 2016 by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

[Brano]

Units taking part in Counteroffensive on Yukhnov and Gzhatsk directions, status 28.2.1942

 

Aviation reserves of Main Command

771.PBP Pе-2

198.ShAP Il-2

175.ShAP Il-2

484.IAP Yak-1

431.IAP LaGG-3

162.IAP LaGG-3

211.IAP Yak-1

Together cca 210—220 aircrafts

 

VVS Western Front

 

130.PBP Pе-2

1.SBP (fast bombers regiment) SB

312.ShAP Il-2

519.IAP MiG-3

236.IAP Yak-1

566.IAP Il-2

122.IAP MiG-3

62.ShAP Il-2 

188.IAP Yak-1

20.IAP Yak-1

601, 680, 692 air regiments with Po-2

Together cca 160—170 aircrafts.

[Dutchvdm]

Can i make a suggestion that we not take all of the BOS aircraft as stand-ins? So no Ju-87 D3 or Yak-1/LaGG-3 (Because we don't have an 1941 Yak and Lagg). 

 

Or is that unreasonable? 

 

Grt M

Edited July 25, 2016 by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

[Picchio]

It's not unreasonable but there must be concessions to gameplay. Since the necessary variants won't be made I think it's better to compromise, than to exclude.

[Dutchvdm]

It's not unreasonable but there must be concessions to gameplay. Since the necessary variants won't be made I think it's better to compromise, than to exclude.

 

Let agree to disagree  . For one i think historical correct use of the planeset is important. Secondly, i think it introduces balancing issues. Using both the 1942 Yak and Lagg will make the 109 F2 rather useless. 

 

Maybe add them with the option to delete. Like the FW in BOS.

 

Grt M

[Brano]

There were 3 fronts taking part in BoM - defensive phase

1. Western Front

2. Reserve Front

3. Bryansk front

 

On the map we have in game,I would focus on Western Front and VVS MBO (Moscow Military District) + PVO

Here is the list of Air regiments of 6.IAK (Fighter Air Corps) of MBO,later incorporated in PVO (22.1.1942) taking part in BoM (oct.41-apr.42)

The list is not exhaustive,some units were part of Moscow PVO from begining of war,some were incorporated later,some removed etc.

 

11.IAP Yak-1,took part at Stalingrad from aug 1942,in dec 42 disbanded

16.IAP MiG-3, just as info,from aug 43 it flew Spit MkV,from july 44 Spit MkIX

27.IAP MiG-3, reequipped with La-5 in mid august 42 and took part at Stalingrad till 24.12.1942

736.IAP Hawker Hurricane

34.IAP MiG-3,I-16

95.IAP Pe-2 till end of aug 41,then reequipped with Pe-3

120.IAP I-153 till oct 41 ,then reequipped with MiG-3

126.IAP P-40 Tomahawk,in aug 42 shortly at Stalingrad

163.IAP Yak-1

171.IAP MiG-3

176.IAP I-16,MiG-3

177.IAP MiG-3

178.IAP LaGG-3

208.BAP Pe-3 

233.IAP I-16,MiG-3

253.IAP LaGG-3

287.IAP Hawker Hurricane,from sept 42 at Stalingrad with Yak-7

309.IAP unknown type

423.IAP I-16,MiG-3

429.IAP Hawker Hurricane

436.IAP Yak-1

438.IAP LaGG-3

445.IAP I-16,MiG-3

488.IAP Hawker Hurricane

495.IAP I-16

562.IAP Yak-1

564.IAP LaGG-3

565.IAP MiG-3

[PatrickAWlson]

@Martijnvdm : I was looking for that and couldn't find it - Thanks!

 

As for no stand ins - they will be there but it will be intelligent.  There is no useful substitute for the Stuka and the D is not exactly light years beyond the B.  If a fighter is overdone then I will us a time period appropriate substitute, but I don't think that the YAK or LaGG are OP for Moscow.

 

Using Brano's information and reducing it a bit, I come up with a pretty even distribution of I16, Yak-1, and MiG-3.  There is a P.40 and a LaGG-3  unit in the mix.

 

German is all Me109 F2.   

 

I also note that the Soviet OOB is very fighter heavy, where the German OOB is more balanced.

Edited July 25, 2016 by PatrickAWlson

[PatrickAWlson]

Let agree to disagree  . For one i think historical correct use of the planeset is important. Secondly, i think it introduces balancing issues. Using both the 1942 Yak and Lagg will make the 109 F2 rather useless. 

 

Maybe add them with the option to delete. Like the FW in BOS.

 

Grt M

 

The ability to change things comes from the fact that PWCG squadron configuration is plain text.  Anybody can do whatever they want as long as the format stays valid.

[Brano]

Hi Patrik,

 

I will check later Reserve and Western Front bomber units representing defence phase of the BoM. In fact there were bombers in Long Ranger Bomber Aviation regiments (described in my pdf about guards units). But as we know,no DB-3 is available in game. 

+ almost all SB bombers were destroyed by that time and Pe-2 just started to appear in greater nr. within VVS. Same for sturmovik.

[PatrickAWlson]

This is what I have so far.  It's a good list.  Of the units presented not all were kept. 

 

The Russians are quite fighter heavy where the Germans are have more fo a bomb/dive bomb/attack presence.  The fact that the German attack aircraft can also fly fighter sweeps helps.  I wouldn't mind a couple more German fighter units if they really were there.  Also wouldn't mind a couple more Sturmovik units - again, if they were really there.  if this is is what I go with I think  it's OK.

 

Another thing that I noticed is that the Germans really stripped this front after the battle, as most of the German units are also at Stalingrad.

 

Appreciate the contributions.

 

 

I.JG 51 - Bf 109 F-2 II.JG 51 - Bf 109 F-2 III.JG 51 - Bf 109 F-2 IV.JG 51 - Bf 109 F-2 I/JG 52 - Bf 109 F-2 II/JG 52 - Bf 109 F-2 III./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-2 II./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-2 I./JG 27 - Bf 109 E-7 II./LG 2 - Bf 109 E-7  I./ZG 26 - Bf 110 E II./ZG 26 - Bf 110 E II./StG 1 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 III./StG 1 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 I./StG 2 - Ju 87 B-2 III./StG 2 - Ju 87 B-2 I./StG 77 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 II./StG 77 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 III./StG 77 - Ju 87 B-2/R-2 I./KG 3 -  Ju 88 II./KG 3 -  Ju 88 III./KG 3 -  Ju 88 I./KG 53 - He 111 II./KG 53 - He 111 III./KG 53 - He 111 I./KG 76 - Ju 88 II./KG 76 - Ju 88 IIII./KG 76 - Ju 88    

11.IAP Yak-1 took part at Stalingrad from aug 1942,in dec 42 disbanded

16.IAP MiG-3

27.IAP MiG-3, reequipped with La-5 in mid august 42 and took part at Stalingrad till 24.12.1942

34.IAP MiG-3,I-16

120.IAP MiG-3

126.IAP P-40 Tomahawk,in aug 42 shortly at Stalingrad

163.IAP Yak-1

171.IAP MiG-3

176.IAP I-16,MiG-3

177.IAP MiG-3

178.IAP LaGG-3

233.IAP I-16,MiG-3

423.IAP I-16,MiG-3

436.IAP Yak-1

495.IAP I-16

562.IAP Yak-1

565.IAP MiG-3

 

95.IAP Pe-2 till end of aug 41,then reequipped with Pe-3

208.BAP Pe-3 (use PE-2)

130.PBP Pе-2

1.SBP (fast bombers regiment) SB (use PE-2)

771.PBP Pе-2 31 Guards PBAP PE-2   62.ShAP Il-2  566.IAP Il-2 312.ShAP Il-2

198.ShAP Il-2

175.ShAP Il-2

86 Guards ShAP IL2 215 Guards ShAP IL2

[Dakpilot]

Am no expert whatsoever but I have read many accounts of fighters especially in Battle of Moscow being pressed into bomber/ground attack duties even when quite unsuitable for purpose, in VVS

 

(possibly) because of huge attrition of bombers/ground attack during earlier phase of barbarossa

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[PatrickAWlson]

Am no expert whatsoever but I have read many accounts of fighters especially in Battle of Moscow being pressed into bomber/ground attack duties even when quite unsuitable for purpose, in VVS

 

(possibly) because of huge attrition of bombers/ground attack during earlier phase of barbarossa

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Not sure how to handle that right at the moment ... but worth thinking about.

[Dutchvdm]

It's the same for the LW. JG 51 flew large numbers of ground attack missions. Will try to find some extra data.

 

Grt M

Edited July 25, 2016 by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

[Brano]

Patrick,

Looks like reasonable list to start with. If I will find out some other interesting units,I'll put them here.

 

For those who want to simulate early Yaks and LaGGs,just do not push MP over 950mmHg and you kind of have them early M-105P versions

 

Dakpilot,yes,many IAPs flew close support . This are values for Defensive operations of Western front from 16.11. till 5.12.1941. Flown mostly by IAPs of 6.IAK and MBO+long range aviation DB-3s

15903 aircraft/missions flown

49.5% air support of ground forces

38.4% fighting for air supremacy

2.1% attacking railroads and reserves stationed in rear (long range aviation)

10% air recce