Complete newbie to flight sims, what controls should I get?

[OTC_-_Erik3E]

So as the title said I am a complete newbie to flight sims and flight controls. Last time I used a flight control was when I was a kid. So basically I want to know what is the best settup to get if you're out to be able to be a good dogfighter? Should one get a joystick, throttle and pedals or is it just as optimal with a throttle and joystick only? 

Note that I might not understand if your using to complicated language so please try to keep it at a kids level, thank you in advance

/Erik

[GrendelsDad]

MFG Crosswind rudder pedels $400 usd

CH Product pro throttle and or throttle quadrent $120-150 each.

Microsoft FFB2 is what I use but I would go with the gunfighter from VBK when it is released. MSFFB2 on ebay for 50-70$ and Gunfight would be around 300$ but no one knows just yet.

 

Also if money is not an issue I would wait for others with info on the "industrial strength" controllers that are available

[1Sascha]

I'd buy in this order:

 

1. Good stick. Preferably with a twisty function if money is tight.

2. TrackIR plus ProClip

3. Rudder Pedals

4. Throttle

 

You can merge 1. and 4. if you buy a stick/throttle "set" (like from Saitek) - not that I'd be recommending Saitek sticks, so don't blame me if you don't like them.. :D

 

 

And yes: If money is an issue, I would recommend TrackIR over rudder pedals. You can make do with a twisty stick for the time being, but there's no way to get 6DOF without TrackIR (or one of its "DIY"-clones out there).

 

 

S.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Before opening a new topic it's always good to use the search function first. This question came up multiple times already and has been extensively debated already.

A few threads you might want to check:

 

a good joystick

good introductory joystick?

Confused about what joystick to get + Pedals required?

Do i need rudder pedals ?

 

To sum it up, it all depends on how much you want to spend and how much you expect from this hobby. If you're new and want to get a first impression it does not make sense to pick up a very expensive joystick with pedals and headtracking but starting with one of the lower price introductory joysticks (there're some very capeable models that can last for several years).

 

As for playing the game a simple joystick is enought. Everything else only ehances the expirience.

Edited July 18, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Sokol1]

As you are new to the genre and don't know if will became addict, buy a basic "3in1" entry-level joystick.

 

Tm 16.000M for ~50$ or VKB Gladiator for 99$ (I advise the last).

Both use contact less sensor in main (X,Y) axis and have integrated simple throttle and rudder (in VKB with contact less in rudder sensor too) and can be "upgraded" with external versions of this controls.

 

Even if cost less don't buy entry level Saitek and Logitech joysticks, they still using potentiometer what will cause headache with use.

 

Latter, if discover that like of "flight games" buy a headtrack, e.g. TrackIR, EDTracker...

 

Secondly a dedicated rudder pedal, for IL-2 VKB T-Rudder will offer the best cost/benefit.

 

And for complete the controls a dedicated throttle - actually most of existent models is "inspired" by modern jets or "spaceships", VKB are working in a model more suitable for propeller planes. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Sokol1

[1Sascha]

I agree with Sokol that the entry-level Gladiator is probably your best choice these days. Internals on it look good and solid for a stick of its price-range , price is totally ok at $99 and it offers you all the functions you'll need for a prop-sim (adequate number of buttons on the stick itself, a hat-switch, twisty grip for rudder and a throttle-slider).

 

I haven't seen the new Thrustmaster-stick open yet, but I would be surprised if it offered better quality on the internals than the Gladiator.

1. It's cheaper than the Gladiator

2. It's from Thrustmaster...

 

Pics and videos on the Gladiator and its internals here:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14343-vkb-gladiator-joystick-project/?p=371047

 

 

Also can't over-emphasize the need to go with contactless-sensors.

 

Anecdotal evidence:

 

My Sidewinder FF2 is roughly 12 or 13 years old now and its contactless sensors still work just as well and smooth as on day one. My CH Pro Throttle is 2 years old and its potentiometer on the throttle axis has been acting up pretty much since day one.

 

 

S.

[GrendelsDad]

Just to counter what 1Sascha said on one thing.  My CH throttle is 7 years old with no problems and my Throttle quadrent is 5 years old and both are running flawless.  I have cleaned the Pro throttle once and have yet to open the quadrent to clean it.  Many others will report the same with CH products.  They are high quality.  Sascha try connecting  your CH throttle to a powerd usb hub.  This has helped many with POTS spiking.  If that doesnt fix contact CH they will issue a replacement POT asap.

[Sokol1]

I haven't seen the new Thrustmaster-stick open yet, but I would be surprised if it offered better quality on the internals than the Gladiator.

1. It's cheaper than the Gladiator

2. It's from Thrustmaster...

 

This "new Trustmaster (T.16000M FCS)" is not really new, is a make-up to "spacial look" of T.16000M released in 2008.

 

I have there one Tm T.16000M disassemble, start "mod" their grip for better usability of buttons at ~2 years ago and move for other - not finished too joystick "mod". 

 

Their gimbal is "downsized" version of Warthog "ball joint" (this stick "Achilles Heel") with only one compression spring and that can mix X, Y axes inputs due the "3D" sensor.

 

The overall construction is not different for other entry-level (Logitech, Saitek) sticks, their buttons even don't use tactile micro switches under caps but more cheap clickable rubber membranes like in cheap gamepads.

 

My unit - and some other reported in ED forum - came with "end course mechanical deadzone": the sensor reading area end before the grip reach the end of course movement.

This happen in CH joysticks too, but in this is compensated in drivers.

In Tm T16000M this is fixable tightening or loosening the base screws what move the sensor position relative to magnet placement.

 

As this model use the same Melexis HALL sensor of Warthog (and X-55/56) in X, Y axis can be resume as: a basic joystick with good electronics and mediocre mechanics, worth their price, is better than Saitek, Logitech concurrent's in similar price range (basic joystick's with mediocre electronics and mediocre mechanics). 

 

 

My Sidewinder FF2 is roughly 12 or 13 years old now and its contactless sensors

 

"Bad news", people already "dissected" MS FFB2 "sensors" and they are conventional potentiometers. 

The previous model, MS FFB PRO (gameport, USB in latter batches) use optical contactless sensors.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Sokol1

[GrendelsDad]

"Bad news", people already "dissected" MS FFB2 "sensors" and they are conventional potentiometers. 

The previous model, MS FFB PRO (gameporte, USB in latter batches) use optical contactless sensors.

I see a mod coming in my future if I could kill just one of the 4 MSFFB2's I have collected over the years.

[1Sascha]

 

 

This has helped many with POTS spiking.  If that doesnt fix contact CH they will issue a replacement POT asap.

 

I'm not bashing CH here.

 

I already contacted their support and they were super-quick and friendly. Said that since the mini-stick isn't spiking it's probably not a matter of too little juice but a faulty pot. They already offered to send me a replacement pot.

 

 

S.

[GrendelsDad]

Sascha I know you were not bashing.  Alot of people I think dont know how helpful the CH support can be.  I can tell you know your stuff on hardware.  But I agree, I have looked at the Throttle on the VBK roster...I know they do not make it but I heard it had contact-less sensor.  I forget the name but it was really cheap $50 usd.  but I wouldnt know how it performs.

[Sokol1]

Gametrix ECS throttle?

 

http://gametrix.ru/products/8

 

Entry level throttle, VKB based electronics/MaRS contact less sensor in throttle axis.

 

I can attest CH stick durability too, I have there a Combastick bough in 1998, play hundred hours of dogfights in Warbirds and latter in IL-2, sell for a matter that use for thousands hours in IL-2 until their pot wear bad and the central pole on gimbal wear on sides causing excessive play, so he gift the stick back to me.

I fix the pole, install a modern USB controller, HALL sensor in X and Y axis and the stick still in use. After all this use the stick still in good shape, HAT's an buttons working OK.

 

But I don't advise people buy then now due their obsolete electronics (8 bits) - the new flight sim/games have more refined FM - will be similar tell to someone buy a carburetor car in those days, they will work but exist better things. 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Sokol1

[GrendelsDad]

Yes sir thats the one. Thank you.

[Jokili68]

I've got the Logitech G 940. This is one of the best Sticks I ever used. The Forcefeedback is exelent.

Ok, it is made of plastic but good plastic. I use it since ~ 3 years with no problems.

[OTC_-_Erik3E]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Before opening a new topic it's always good to use the search function first. This question came up multiple times already and has been extensively debated already.

A few threads you might want to check:

 

a good joystick

good introductory joystick?

Confused about what joystick to get + Pedals required?

Do i need rudder pedals ?

 

To sum it up, it all depends on how much you want to spend and how much you expect from this hobby. If you're new and want to get a first impression it does not make sense to pick up a very expensive joystick with pedals and headtracking but starting with one of the lower price introductory joysticks (there're some very capeable models that can last for several years).

 

As for playing the game a simple joystick is enought. Everything else only ehances the expirience.

Thank you I didn't really see that I just really wanted to get a quick question out there to get some response that might help me. I'm not sure if I know more or less now after reading all comments but I have an ok amount to spend and I've played war thunder before in simulation just without a mouse and Last week I got the Oculus rift witch I tried in Warthunder Sim battle. It made me really sick but I know you can train your brain and make it used to VR and you will get less sick. Anyways I imagine a stick would help me to not get nauseous as I imagine you can fly the aircraft a lot more stable. So I already know I love to fly and dogfight even tho i'm not very good at it but I am definitely sure I am going to be a regular sim pilot. And also I want to get a setup for star citizen as well. Anyways thank everyone who gave their input Il look thru this post and the others linked and see if I can decide what to spend my money on. Cheers!