KG 13 from KBTT. Another one look on the replica.

[Cheb2006]

Good day!

Introducing the new version of the KG 13 replica.
When designing we were not to try outdo the well-known replika of Baur, but make for yourself something a little closer to the real thing and cheaper.

Highlights and features:

1. We are wanted to use original buttons, so there are buttons on the MiG, which were put in the same stick after the war. The button itself is not different from the German, but the lid has a black color and 4 grooves, instead of one.

2. Step of knurl as the original (on the original knuppel germans did not make knurl on stick, but welded knurl pipe which is resin type, so the differences are in large extensions, but overal close )

3. It would be desirable to obtain the maximum seamless stick body, so the base is molded completely and has no seam, the top consist of the two halves.

4. Casting of the three copies of the sticks was carried out by myself without ordering a large series of copies from the third parties,  that did not require such a high cost, both in industrial casting, but with each stick a lot of time has been spent.

5. Material Beresin G27 white - in the form of colored plastic, it is not light transparent and it looks like it was painted (all who looked, thought that the base not just a cast, and it's polished and painted)
 

For testing we are printed sample adapter and set the knob on the Logitech Attack 3.
The buttons are triggered stably, rigidity is quite normal.
Do not judge strictly, this is the first trial casting, there are minor defects, does not affect the overall feel of the stick in hand

P.S. trigger axles with locking pins have not yet arrived from China, so long as a bolt..
 

[Sokol1]

Cheeb,

 

Very nice copy. Rest know the price.

 

For what I understand, the top button was molded using the real buttons of Mig-15 grip, wright?

 

Suggestion: make a Soviet version of the base plate of this grip, instead only the KG13A, so we have properly a Mig-15 copy.

 

And consider make a latter version of Mig-21 grip.

 

To achieve better visibility in "sim" community, I suggest you post this work in this places too:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/81/1/Flight_Sim_Pit_Builders

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=96

[Cheb2006]

Cheeb,

 

Very nice copy. Rest know the price.

>We'r not shure yet, but it will be no more than 200$ i guess...

 

For what I understand, the top button was molded using the real buttons of Mig-15 grip, wright?

 >Not molded. It is a real Mig-15 buttons. And not only top buttons.. wing and fuel drop buttons real as well...

 

Suggestion: make a Soviet version of the base plate of this grip, instead only the KG13A, so we have properly a Mig-15 copy.

>Thanks a lot, we will think about it. If our stick will be interesting for a wide auditory, we can make many additional versions of top and bottom parts. For example, it is possible to change side cuts from soft to hard at the front, like on last versions...

 

And consider make a latter version of Mig-21 grip.

>all depends from people interest, it is very expensive to make it...

 

To achieve better visibility in "sim" community, I suggest you post this work in this places too:

>Thanks a lot for information, i'l look this links and post my work there later...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/81/1/Flight_Sim_Pit_Builders

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=96

[Bando]

Will it be possible to mount this stick onto another base, replacing the Warthog stick for instance (with some sort of adapter or so)?

 

 

Looking nice, that's for sure.

[Cheb2006]

Will it be possible to mount this stick onto another base, replacing the Warthog stick for instance (with some sort of adapter or so)?

 

 

Looking nice, that's for sure.

We have no Warthog or Cougar for testing. Mechanically it is not a big problem to make adapter - our base is just 35mm tube inside, like the original, but electrical iterface have just 5 pins - it is not just connector for buttons to the base- it have some electornic inside that multiplexing buttons signals i think or based on resistance like on logitech. It is possible bu needs the time for investigations.

But Baur's kg-13 already have ready solution for Warthog, as i know, may be you have to look at that vaiant of stick...

 

 

I found that Cougar have button matrix plate based on three CD4021BCN 8-Stage Static Shift Register...  Connection over PS/2 plug.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Cheb2006

[Sokol1]

Yes, is need install a Shift Register PCB board with CD4021 mc inside the grip to make then compatible "PnP" with Warthog/Cougar/VKB bases.

 

Is simple and cheap make a Shift Register board:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2780923&postcount=89

 

Most of people interested in buy this kind of grip own a Warthog and want be able to easily exchange grips, so if you plan make then for sold, look at this detail.

[Cheb2006]

Good day!
I made vacuum motorised tank and now back to made our KG-13 replica.
First of all, i found that side button have to be mounted on metal holder with rubber bottom dust protector.
Now metal holder is almost done and we have working form to make silikon dust protector.
Also i made buttons looking as german and repalcing original  Fl50911 or 205K in real KGs, but with timing buttons inside.  Fl50911 have the same movment and pressing protection as original.

Full updates of our researches or RU forum.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4599-kg-13-ot-kbtt-eshyo-odin-vzglyad-na-sozdanie-repliki/page-2

[Cheb2006]

As well, i replased phillips screws with straigt ones...

[Bando]

Looks fantastic!!

[Sokol1]

I made vacuum motorised tank and now back to made our KG-13 replica.

 

In this thing - that resemble "Big John" bomb. 

 

 

Cheeb,

 

The result is looking good, keep the work.

 

I think you should stick to make a KG-13B replica and not a "desktop" joystick like KG-13B, as people are asking in the other forum, for this exist VKB Gladiator.

 

Like add extra toggle switches as suggested is not good idea - Baur did this and then removed. One looking for a KG-13B replica know that this is a 4 button grip.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Sokol1

[Cheb2006]

Additionally working on reload button...

 

The first try in plastic - now not is actual (many dimmentions was fine tuned):

 

 

Last two images - Actual form (Overal lenght now is shoter):

Edited February 22, 2017 by Cheb2006

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

I wish you could use this with your Warthog stick, i would definitely buy it!

[Cheb2006]

I wish you could use this with your Warthog stick, i would definitely buy it!

Some people think that base have to be shortened for Wartog. Cutted under FT-button. That full size kg13 turns tabletop joystick to the undertable joystik.

So, you want kg13 with that big side placed reload button?

[Cheb2006]

At the last weekend i made some buttons and painted few button holders to the black. Waiting until the new dust protector will be ready ...

Screw terminals are used because polyurethane will float if soldering contacts as PLA and ABS ... Original button was made of thermoreactive,  not thermoplastic.

Timing button is soldered on the screw terminals directly.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Cheb2006

[Sokol1]

Some people think that base have to be shortened for Wartog. Cutted under FT-button. That full size kg13 turns tabletop joystick to the undertable joystik.

 

For desktop use yes, but Warthog gimbal is not much good for use in this way (stiction, center "lock", heaviness), so people add extension for minimize this drawbacks, and KG-13B can be considered a grip with extension incorporated.

[Cheb2006]

This is pictures of my new silikon dust protector for B-knopf.  It based on original Soviet, but made some changes that turnes it to Luftwaffe style cover ...
It is easier to make matte cover, but i gess that original was a little glossy..

... So now i have full set for side buttn kit...

[Cheb2006]

Here's what this rubber looks like in the final version with a bracket ...
For finish it is left to make a new fire trigger, blacken the screws and make an adapter for a Cougar ...

On this photo in the rubber the wires according to the thickness of the original - 1 sq.mm.
I think that wires inside final version will be the same thickness to make more realistic view.

[Cheb2006]

Meanwhile at filial of Luftwaffe manufacture...

 

[Cheb2006]

Recieved some SLS printed new parts..

[Sokol1]

Cheb,

 

Very nice work. 

 

But looks "expensive". 

 

For what joystick base you plan do adapters?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Sokol1

[Cheb2006]

Cheb,

 

Very nice work. 

 

But looks "expensive". 

 

For what joystick base you plan do adapters?

For the Cougar/Warthog for begin.. any other in future..

[Cheb2006]

So, as promised, we'r reprinted the nut with the tube and put everything in the final version on Warthog. For now this is a working prototype, but it's just printed. It will be made from black plastic, like the flightstick itself. The connector is tightly fixed in the hole with a stud. The connection centers by the guide tabs, as in the original, then settles down to the end with a simultaneous wrapping of the nut. We made minimum acceptable distance from the nut to the stick. Everything works, later I'll try to fly ... on this KG ...

 

 

[Cheb2006]

And now we'r wating for the metal fire trigger. It is draft model of fire trigger on photos.

[Cheb2006]

The new and final version of cougar/warthog adapter plus new long 70mm fixing screwes, that will be cutted soon to the front of nuts...

 

 

[Cheb2006]

New blackened screws, as well as a plastic three-dimensional wire model of wires organizer.

[Sokol1]

B-Knopf button need be raised a bit.

[Cheb2006]

B-Knopf button need be raised a bit.

Looks like you are only one resident of this forum

Button sits in it's position, holded by the ring and rubber. Position can not be changed. But Top side of holder could be shoter a bit. On the different sticks its a little bit different... But. Button have to sit as on the picture by the reason to protect from occational pressed. It's easy to press it, but by the finger, not by the palm ..

[Sokol1]

This picture suggest little space for press the button:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_04_2017/post-16254-0-63168700-1491215989.jpg

 

Here the button cap goes more off the support:

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/luftwaffe-messerschmitt-kg-13-control-442048397

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente/katalog/steuerknueppel/gross/KG13AG6_7.gif

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente/katalog/steuerknueppel/steuerknuppel.htm

 

Observation just from practical point of view, for use this grip as "game joystick".

Edited April 4, 2017 by Sokol1

[Bando]

Sokol is not the only one resident on this forum 

 

I'm still deciding what to do.

Virpil has something beautiful, VKB as well, this is also a great topic.

 

 

Decisions...decisions...

 

[Irgendjemand]

Awesome work. Sadly I need more buttons on my main grip. Thats why none of the KG Grips available on  the market are for me. If it was for pure aesthetics the KG20 was my first choice.
 

[Cheb2006]

This picture suggest little space for press the button:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_04_2017/post-16254-0-63168700-1491215989.jpg

 

Here the button cap goes more off the support:

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/luftwaffe-messerschmitt-kg-13-control-442048397

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente/katalog/steuerknueppel/gross/KG13AG6_7.gif

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente/katalog/steuerknueppel/steuerknuppel.htm

 

Observation just from practical point of view, for use this grip as "game joystick".

Depth of button placements depend from many factors. First of all - is this is original placement. Very often button placed on the grip by the restorers and not by original way. As i said i will make top end of holder shorter.

And look here - here buttons placed deeper... on all sticks...

https://www.ta-152.de/knueppelgriff-kg-13/

 

From this site:

On the third picture holder is not original...

But. If you know how button placing in holder you have to realize, that it can not  stick out so hard..

This is not final version or rubber - it's soviet, but method is the same. And 205K have a little bit longer hat.

 

And here is final version of rubber, but i made top side a little bit shorter.

So The same parts could look very differ...

I will reprint the form for rubber on SLS printer to make serfase more quality in the future..

[Cheb2006]

Sokol is not the only one resident on this forum 

 

I'm still deciding what to do.

Virpil has something beautiful, VKB as well, this is also a great topic.

 

 

Decisions...decisions...

 

We will get our metal fire triggers from factoy soon and factory made sprungs...

All will be compatible with original grips as spare part.. As all other parts of our knuppel grip...

You can check forum.il2sturmovik.ru for pictures of my parts on the original knuppel grips...

Awesome work. Sadly I need more buttons on my main grip. Thats why none of the KG Grips available on  the market are for me. If it was for pure aesthetics the KG20 was my first choice.

 

... KG20 ? ...

[Sokol1]

KG G20 grip is a "fantasy" grip done by some "boutique" joystick maker based on KG-12/13.

 

BTW - KG-14 trigger selector is interesting - but still 4 buttons grip.

 

Good war time or post war (LIFE) pictures suggesting B2 Knopf raised a bit ~3/4mm from support:

 

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y471/roger_guyancourt/DSC09323_zpsb329787f.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vbS5WRM1kL0/TaazZ8z-9wI/AAAAAAAAACc/pW_EJsx0GRQ/s1600/Fw190G-3-Cockpit-Kurssteuerung.jpg

 

Anyway I am talking about game use, since the player can want use the button for other function than original function of drop bombs - for this the deep button act as safety measure, avoiding  "lost" bombs.

[Cheb2006]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vbS5WRM1kL0/TaazZ8z-9wI/AAAAAAAAACc/pW_EJsx0GRQ/s1600/Fw190G-3-Cockpit-Kurssteuerung.jpg

On this picture, you posted, button placed almost absolutly as on my knuppelgrip in depth, but holder cutted very very short at the top edge..
And... button plased wrong place. It is fixed by holder, but here it touches the surface and turned to the left. It is abnormal position at all. May be it could be not placed to the rubber  to the end...

 

Any way, do you have original kg13? Or may be try to use original 205K buttons? Even with my long top edge of holder there is no any unconvience with pressing this button. I plan to make vidio on youtoube with usage, but only when i get factory fire trigger and prrungs...

Edited April 5, 2017 by Cheb2006

[Sokol1]

Nope, only a M.Terlizzi (Tail Boom) KG-13A 1:1 plastic model, supposedly modeled from real grip.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Sokol1

[Cheb2006]

Nope, only a M.Terlizzi (Tail Boom) KG-13A 1:1 plastic model, supposedly modeled from real grip.

Sad, but , this model have many mistakes In many nuances. Especially in the side button model. This is not a direct copy from original as yuo can see. real KGs separates not by the top of tube , but under bottom button. electrical box is very strange.. I will post some photos from my desktop tomorrow for compare. It is time to sleep now

Edited April 5, 2017 by Cheb2006

[Sokol1]

KG20 is this "Frankestein":

 

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y308/blackwolf_927/stick1w_zps0e10a40a.png

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y308/blackwolf_927/stick2_zps6de5984c.png

[Cheb2006]

So, i made some pictures about that replica...

First of all...

This holder even could not be made from metal by pressure... Where they are seen such ears i'm not realise...

 

The next..

Position of button in this holder in wrong..

It looks like the button not inside the rubber... like this:

And if button is in the rubber it have to look like this, may be even deeper... :

 

It's strange, so quality replica, it looks greate from the first look, but... I think that creator made it from stick without side button... There are a lot of another small mistakes on the body of the grip... i can show it later, if you want...

[Sokol1]

This is not important. ), just that "replica" don't looks "3D printed" but cast form some part - how "original" this part is, is the question. 

 

In their Spitfire Spade the "BBC" button is "3D printed", is clearly visible by simmetry and angles of the part:

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/2015/reviews/kits/tailboompreviewbg_5.htm

 

When he release the knurled fire button version of Spade he ask for someone lean a "BBC" button for make a copy, what probable don't happen. See in footnote. 

 

Their work with Italian grips is very good:

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/2016/reviews/kits/tailboompreviewbg_6.htm

http://stormomagazine.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=738

[Cheb2006]

Finished a test version of KG13 electrical board. The next step will be to put the side reload button and lay the outer wires ...
One can say that this electrical board will be put only on exclusive assemblages of the stick, it is too hard in production, but with the closed lid can be seen only from below.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Cheb2006