Wolkow-Jarzew WJa-23mm damage

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

What you think about the he damage of the Wolkow-Jarzew WJa-23mm. Are they realistic compare to the german 20mm ?

 I think the russian 23mm got more splinter damage, but i want to talk about the blast damage. I want a discussion about the damage in wings or nor protected areas on the airplane.

I think the damage of the german 20mm is just a bit to low but much more realistic than the russchian 23mm.

 

To compare the russian 23mm against the german 20mm here are some details.

 

MG FF/M 18g explosive charge

540 rounds per minute

muzzle velocity: 695 m/s

 

MG 151/20 18.7g explosive charge

550 -750 rounds per minute on the syncronised version and 780 - 800 unsyncronised.

muzzle velocity: 810 m/s

 

WJa-23mm 10g explosive charge

550-650 rounds per minute

muzzle velocity: 905 m/s

 

So in my opinion the russian 23mm make a way to much damage compare to the german 20mm which have nearby the double content of explosive charge.

If the Developer didnt want to weaken the 23mm, than give the germans 20mm please at least the same destructive power!

 

Whats your opinions about that ?

Edited July 6, 2016 by I./ZG15_dasSofa

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A fun read: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&file=print&kid=483&page=1

[JtD]

Blast doesn't necessarily do most of the damage. Splinters also contribute, meaning a heavy shell with a comparably small explosive load can also do extensive damage. On some occasions it will be less, on some it will be more than a lighter shell with more explosives. The WJa shell was twice as heavy as the MG151/20 shell.

 

Also keep in mind that the belting doesn't only consist of high explosive or mine shells, and the ~4g of explosives in the standard MG151/20 HE shell aren't all that impressive.

 

Imho, the 23mm should overall be somewhat harder hitting than both German 20mm cannons, also against aircraft.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

If the equation would be as simple as -> more explosive charge = greater damage then everyone would be building such types of ammunition. German Minenshells were very fine design, they manufactured thin walled rounds with great explosive filler and good fuse. But its not the only way to achieve good results. Japanese experimented with high explosive incendiary rounds with a very unusual designs aimed at increasing the chance of setting target afire. Soviet Union used since 1942 special explosive/incendiary material known as A-IX-2. British had their SAPI ammunition.

To focus only on one type of approach to the topic is not proper in my opinion. You have to take into account type of targets German pilots had to encounter, with increasing amount of bombers since 1942. At the same time British or Soviets rarely encountered German bombers, but they continuously were encountering German fighters.  

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

I forgott to write in the topic that i mean just the he rounds in compairsion - no way to compare a 23mm to a 20mm AP round thats for sure so i edit it!

 

Thanks for the Link !

 

@ JtD: The MG FF/M 20mm (Used in 1940)  has 18G not 4G !

 

Keep in mind that you can change the Ammunition Type in the Russian Lagg and IL2 from Mixed to only HE or AP(I) and you cant do that in any German Plane which is also a bad limitation!

 

A Friends Grandpa which flew different Version of the FW 190 (MG151/20) wrote in his memorys that he used against fighters only he rounds (because of the less damage from the ap rounds on fighters and bombers).

He like`s the blast damage from the 20mm he which blews big parts of skinmetal from the fighters and makes the aerodynamic so worse that they get a stall or they must power down which makes them slow and a easy target.

 

One Mixed Types the 23mm can not be beaten from a 20mm 151 or FF/M. But if the MG 151 or MG FF/M gets not this game limitations and can change the Ammunition Types like the Russian it will much more powerfull against fighters !

 

Please Compare InGame just the blast damage from both guns, than you know why i say the 23mm is a wonderweapon. if the blast damage wont be decreased from the 23mm i want at least the same blast power for the 20mm which is realistic.

Edited July 6, 2016 by I./ZG15_dasSofa

[JtD]

The MG FF/M also used mixed ammunitions, and only the mine shells have the 18g of PETN. The /M in the MG FF/M indicates that the weapon was capable of using these mine shells, but it didn't use only mine shells. The standard HE round, also used with the MG FF/M, only held 4g of PETN.

 

I agree it would be interesting to have custom belting on German aircraft, but then it wouldn't be very historically accurate.

 

How do you tell the difference between blast and splinter damage?

[mb339pan]

all german ammunition is week in this game...

 

 

log http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/795766/?tour=12

 

Gunnery Accuracy 22.6%

Number of shots 518

Number of bullets hit the target 117

Edited July 6, 2016 by 150GCT_Pan

[Dakpilot]

Just out of interest, do the stats show MG and cannon hit separately?

 

I have noticed that with FW190 due to central mounted MG17 and wing mounted cannons it is possible to get good hits with the MG but a lot of misses with the Cannons when firing at not ideal convergence distance

 

this due to vertical and horizontal convergence of dissimilar weapons 

 

Just a thought 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[707shap_Srbin]

 

API ammunition:

Designation: БЗ (BZ)

Type: API

Projectile Weight [g]: 196-198

Bursting charge [g]: none

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 905

Description: 68g hard steel core and incendiary in the windshield cap. Two types with different caps (aluminium and swaged steel) are found. Penetration 25 mm RHA at 400 m and perpendicular impact.

 

Designation: Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphor) 151 ohne Zerleger

Type: API

Projectile Weight [g]: 115

Bursting charge [g]: 3.6 g incendiary (WP)

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 720

Description: No fuze, no self-destruct. Penetration 3 to 15mm of steel.

Without any doubt, 23mm VYa Armor-piercing shell was much more powerfull comparing to any 20mm german AP shell.

 

HEI-T ammunition:

Designation: ОЗТ (OZT)

Type: HEI-T

Projectile Weight [g]: 190

Bursting charge [g]: 12 (RDX/Al/wax)

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 905

Description: HE incendiary round with a K-20 or DV nose fuze and a reduced HE charge due to the space taken by the tracer.

 

Designation: Brandsprenggranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger

Type: HEI-T

Projectile Weight [g]: 113

Bursting charge [g]: 2.3 g HE (PETN) + 2.1 g incendiary (Elektron)

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 705

Description: Nose fuze, tracer, no self-destruct

Same here - 20mm shell was lighter, had less HE and incendiary charge. 

 

HE ammunition:

Designation: ОЗ (OZ)

Type: HEI

Projectile Weight [g]: 198

Bursting charge [g]: 15 (RDX/Al/wax)

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 905

Description: HE incendiary round with a K-20 or DV nose fuze.

 

Designation: Minengeschosspatrone 151 ohne L'Spur

Type: HE

Projectile Weight [g]: 95

Bursting charge [g]: 18.6 g HE (PETN)

Muzzle Velocity [m/s]: 805

Description: Nose fuze, no tracer

 

VYa shell was twice heavy then MG151 shell, and, have little less HE charge, made much more heavy > powerfull splinters when exploding.

 

VYa was legendary cannon among Soviet VVS. It was well respected by Il-2 pilots and their Luftwaffe fighter opponents, who never made it Head-On attacks against Il-2. Even level-on exit after 6-o'clock attacks were very soon realised as extremly dangerous: VYa had exellent ballistics, and it's shell flew straight on up to 400 metres, making long shots mush easier. It was usually enough to have 1-2 hits with HE shell on Luftwaffe fighter to shot it down.

 

As for destruction potential, it was considered much closer to 30mm german opponents (MK108), then to 20mm ones (MG151).

 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

all german ammunition is week in this game...

Ekhem, its a bit of exaggeration to state something like this with a single video. My experience says otherwise, single MG 151/20 in 109 F-4 is enough to nail Soviet fighters. Only Il-2s can take a huge amount of hits (in my opinion too much actually, but that is a different matter) and Pe-2s. If you want something weak, then try Shvak. That thing is for me no better than Berezin and if I have a choice between Shvak or Berezin, I choose latter one, like when I can in MiG-3.

 

Also, referring to the video itself and combat logs. You have scored 117 hits, that is true. But based on video and tracer flight curve it seems that those were mostly bullets from 7.92 machine guns. Cannon rounds (either from MG FF/M or MG 151/20) like in 0:50-0:58 sequence were mostly passing below the Pe-2. 

[JtD]

As for destruction potential, it was considered much closer to 30mm german opponents (MK108), then to 20mm ones (MG151).

Maybe in some odd Soviet test - selective targets, selective ammunitions, simplified summaries. And these summaries become popular opinion, because it's 'we're the best' is always popular, makes for a good 'legend'.

It certainly would not be considered close to a 30mm cannon as a result of a thorough technical analysis. Just considering general air to air fire power, it's somewhat better than even a good 20mm cannon, but not even close to even a weak 30mm cannon. I can think of test configurations that make it look good, but at the end of the day it's just a 23mm cannon. Not magic.

 

p.s.: Look at the link Lucas provided - I don't agree with everything, but there's a rough picture. The MG151-YVa23-MK108 score's 192-234-580.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yak cannon seams to weak

[707shap_Srbin]

Why I love VYa-23 gun? It was first tested on Bf110C-1 Its not a joke.

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

 

 

I agree it would be interesting to have custom belting on German aircraft, but then it wouldn't be very historically accurate. How do you tell the difference between blast and splinter damage?

 

Why it wouln`t be historical accurate if any german pilot was free to chose his belt ? It`s well know that they do this and i don`t get it why this is possible with Lagg and IL2 nd not in the Yack, 109 or 190.

 

First to all others, i don`t want a discussion in general about the 23mm and the 20mm. I just want to compare the blast damage. BoS wants to be a simulation and in this point it didn`t do that right.

If you shot just a HE Round in a wing in the game, compare the hole size from both. The 23mm make a bigger hole with less explosive charge in the wing compare to the 20mm with more explosive charge and i don`t get it why. It should be clear that in some situations the splinters rips of some dents and the hole therefore is bigger but u can`t tell this is every time.

True is, that the splinters damage from the 23mm do damage some important stuff like whatercooler, wingmount ect. but i dont want discuss about that.

In my mind, the 20mm HE should make at least the same hole size as the 23mm and therefore the aoerodynamics gets worse.

 

50.cal got some penetration and do that good.

23mm API got good splinter and also blast damage and works deadly.

20mm HE did just blast damage as designed(a way less splinter) which is not good simulatet and therfore a bit unfair.

Hi Panzerbar !

 

I know it was tested first in the 110 from German Wikipedia.

[JtD]

It wasn't that any German pilot was free to chose his belt. There were certain belt compositions for different purposes most pilots had to stick to. Deviations possible due to shortage of specific rounds or for some chosen individuals, but these are exceptions, not the rule.

[mb339pan]

Also, referring to the video itself and combat logs. You have scored 117 hits, that is true. But based on video and tracer flight curve it seems that those were mostly bullets from 7.92 machine guns. Cannon rounds (either from MG FF/M or MG 151/20) like in 0:50-0:58 sequence were mostly passing below the Pe-2. 

 

with only mg you do not get those damages, Here the screen with the explosion signs caused of mg151 (mg17 is just AP)

 

 

 

 

the final result

 

 

the plane performs a violent beaten for no apparent damage, no smoke trail nothing...

 

the funny part is that the mg l saw the tail wing of FW, in a fraction of a second

 

log 20:57:26

was damaged - 98.9%

AI

Pe-2 (series 87) turret

 

 

absolutely ridiculous

[CUJO_1970]

You can tell the people on here that actually fly online.

 

VYa-23 is a one-hit wonder weapon in this sim. 

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

Some information on WWII cartridges

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

Footage of 30mm minengeschoss trials

Edited July 8, 2016 by I./ZG1_Goblin

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

It wasn't that any German pilot was free to chose his belt. There were certain belt compositions for different purposes most pilots had to stick to. Deviations possible due to shortage of specific rounds or for some chosen individuals, but these are exceptions, not the rule.

Where do you get this wrong Information?

 

Some Books i read from German WW2 Pilots, Books of Luftwaffe taktiks with detailed info`s about some well know Pilots ect. and the memorys from my friend`s Granpa tells exactly the different. If any Supply or Ammuntition is low i agree but if not it makes no sense. You can also say, there where no official pilot invented fieldmods but many used them ... also some change`s on the aircraft - MAYBE (i dont know) not allowed but done from many pilots.

Its the same as in the Wehrmacht and here i can talk from my Granpa`s memories. It wasnt allowed (nearby to the End of the War) to use enemy guns but my grandpa as an officer used a ppsh and like this gun a lot. If you stick to the written Laws, you missed a big part of the War.

 

I dont want in general discuss about that, but there are many little things/limitations in the game which weakens german planes or effectivness. Each limitation is not big (more or less), but in the mass its a disadvantage! And that is the reasson why i want to talk about such things.

Like the FW 190 Bar which limits the visability (the bottom Bar in the front Windshield). There was a Guy in the BoS beta time which makes a nice Video about the wrong implementations about this bar. This is 3 Years ago and this bar still exists.

Or like some FM disadvantage. There are German flighttest and data`s, English data`s ,Americans and Russsians. Most are nearby the same with some +-% and then it gets some Russian flighttest with partly big different datas.

It means, the accuracy says 3:1 - but which data`s are implemented ?!

I know the developers cant use all data`s 1:1, the balancing then where bad but this balancing now is really unfair implemented like the HE explosive damage compairing 20mm to 23 mm.

 

Sorry for my bad english!

[707shap_Srbin]

dasSofa:

 

1. VYa-23 had 15g of explosive charge, not 10g. Also, HEI shell was almost twoce heavy then german 20mm Minengeschoss. 

 

2. You shold compare soviet 20mm ShVAK shell damage vs. german 20mm MG151/20 shell damage. Comparing 23mm vs. 20mm is useless. Anyway, 23mm is much deadly then 20mm.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

 

 

It means, the accuracy says 3:1 - but which data`s are implemented ?!

 

They have a pretty solid policy of Soviet data for Soviet aircraft, and German data for German aircraft whenever possible actually. You're looking for bias where there is none, a 23mm upscaled Berezin with a heavy shell which became standard issue in a heavy-duty ground attack aircraft is more effective than a 20mm gun with a very good shell. Despite the minor difference in explosive filler, the calibre and projectile weight of the VYa-23 more than compensate for that, making it very effective.

 

For the record, the VYa-23 is no wunderwaffe in the game and I always take the ShVAK on the LaGG-3 because it does the job just fine and has more rounds. I usually shoot from up close so the steadier trajectory of the VYa-23 doesn't help much.

[707shap_Srbin]

Yeah, found that, at least:

 

 

 

 In october 44 we were transferred to Pyarnu for taking art in liberation of isles Esel and Dago. Once a time - I was not in that mission but witness sayd to me - pair of Fw190 attacked a formation of IL-2's on alt 500m.
..........
This time "Fokke's" exit from attack in front of Il-2's, and it was need only to press the buttons.

Leading Fw190 was hit by several 23mm shells in fuzelage and wings and exploded so hard that left visible only huge cloud of smoke and falling part of tail with tailwheel.

His wingmen was hit by only one 23mm shell straight in cockpit, and began fast climbing. Pilot, who told me this story - followed him in climb and going to attack - but when he enclose to Fw190 - he saw terrible picture: a part of fuzelage was gone, cockpitglass was thorn away, and inside the cock was bloody smash mixed pieses of body and parts of interior...He was so amazed that could not shoot, and uncontrolled Fw190 made 2-3 loops and spinned into sea..."
--------------
The comments says: This combat took place 24 10 44, when during combat mission 12:37 - 15:46, IL-2 pilots claimed 2 x Fw190 shot down: Ltn.Gavrilov (personal) and serjants Bochkaryov and Solov'yov (shared).

[DD_Arthur]

 

 but this balancing now is really unfair implemented

 

Sorry for my bad english!

 

There is no balancing.

 

Your English is very good.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

with only mg

I did not say only. I said mostly.

 

 

 

1. VYa-23 had 15g of explosive charge, not 10g. Also, HEI shell was almost twoce heavy then german 20mm Minengeschoss. 

To be specific HEI round (OZ using soviet nomenclature) had a weight of 201 grams with explosive filler of 15.6 grams of A-IX-2 high explosive incendiary mixture. This combined high explosive incendiary composition was developed by naval engineer Eugene Grigorevich Ledin in 1940. It was developed to increase the power of armour piercing high explosive projectiles and in fact, A-IX-2 is more than twice as powerful as TNT. In February 1942 the Soviet state committee for defence decided to adopt the new high explosive incendiary composition, and by the end of that year all medium calibre projectiles were filled with it.

Volume of the gaseous products: 750 litres/kg

Explosion energy: 1,550 - 1,720 cal/kg

Detonation velocity: 7,800 - 8,510 m/sec

Explosion temperature: 4,900° C

Ignition temperature: 215 - 230° C

Specific weight: 1.65 - 1.80 gm/cc

 

A-IX-2 is 80 % mixture of A-IX-1 and 20 % aluminum powder. A-IX-1 is 95 % RDX and 5 % Wax. So it is practically 12 grams of pure RDX. But when mixed with aluminum powder it adds whole new level of damage, vastly increasing incendiary capabilities. 

 

 

2. You shold compare soviet 20mm ShVAK shell damage vs. german 20mm MG151/20 shell damage.

Yes, he should, though this was brought many times on forums already, and even though data are old doubtfully anything has changed in this area :  http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21575-russian-planes-are-made-out/?p=341502

Data Matt brought over a year ago clearly show that German HE shell has almost 10 times more explosive filler then Soviet round.

[JtD]

To be specific HEI round (OZ using soviet nomenclature) had a weight of 201 grams with explosive filler of 15.6 grams of A-IX-2 high explosive incendiary mixture. This combined high explosive incendiary composition was developed by naval engineer Eugene Grigorevich Ledin in 1940. It was developed to increase the power of armour piercing high explosive projectiles and in fact, A-IX-2 is more than twice as powerful as TNT.

That's odd, given that only about 75% (or 80%) are explosive at all and that RDX has a TNT equivalent of 1.6. Clearly less powerful than the PETN the Germans used.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I was quoting there Christian Kolls "Soviet Cannon", thats exactly what is said there. 

[JtD]

Maybe he wasn't referring to the technically most accurate TNT equivalent when making the twice as powerful statement. Who knows why. Maybe he felt 20% more powerful didn't sound good enough and came up with his own way of calculating power.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd be far from such assumptions, they could be related to amateur but Christian Koll is no amateur. 

 

Anyway, thats not the point of the discussion. 

[JtD]

For sure, it includes the combustion energy of the aluminium and probably, it uses a specific scenario for the application of the explosion, like maybe a small boxed space in an aircraft wing.

 

I think that determining the actual damage potential of the WJa projectile is the point of the discussion. Quoting a book doesn't really put an end to it, in particular if a general statement is being quoted that does not obviously make sense.

[JtD]

How do I select belt composition and what exactly have I got in German aircraft? I recently invested half a day to get BoS running again (thanks for the updates, always a great to get things 'fixed' that weren't broken), and couldn't find any info or options for the ammunition used.

The tests I made with a Pe-2 as target seem reasonable for the WJa and also reasonable for the MG151/20 if it only used AP and standard HE. If it was supposed to be the 60% mine shell standard Luftwaffe belting, it would suck.

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

You can select between AP | HE or Mixed on some Russion Aircrafts and NOT on the Germans, why - i didnt know .

 

I close this Discussion. I know now, that the Game is made for Russians

Edited July 19, 2016 by I./ZG15_dasSofa

[CUJO_1970]

How do I select belt composition and what exactly have I got in German aircraft? I recently invested half a day to get BoS running again (thanks for the updates, always a great to get things 'fixed' that weren't broken), and couldn't find any info or options for the ammunition used.The tests I made with a Pe-2 as target seem reasonable for the WJa and also reasonable for the MG151/20 if it only used AP and standard HE. If it was supposed to be the 60% mine shell standard Luftwaffe belting, it would suck.

You have no choice to select belting on FW-190.

[JtD]

No choice is not historical.

[Kurfurst]

Splinters also contribute, meaning a heavy shell with a comparably small explosive load can also do extensive damage

 

Splinters contribute of course, but practically all their kinetic energy comes from the explosive load. It can't just magically conjure it up, you will just end up with bigger, but slower flying fragments. As an analouge, if you fire the same bullet from same gun but with half the powder charge, it will be less powerful.

 

20-23 mm splinters are tiny anyway. The round itself is rather tiny too. Now Mine shells have thin walls and generate even tinier fragments than normally, the main thing there is the blast pressure's destructive effect. That's mighty effective in a small radius because the pressure is huge, but it quickly goes away. Fragments may fly further though.

Edited July 21, 2016 by VO101Kurfurst

[I/JG7_Jack*]

I only recently started with BoS/M after more then 8 years in 46. I found this topic really interesting, thanks.

What I can say after few months of flying is that I was really surprised how "easy" the russian fighters chew up the 109, while in the same time the russian fighter can take several 20mm hits and still fly on. 

[JtD]

Splinters contribute of course, but practically all their kinetic energy comes from the explosive load. It can't just magically conjure it up, you will just end up with bigger, but slower flying fragments. As an analouge, if you fire the same bullet from same gun but with half the powder charge, it will be less powerful.

 

20-23 mm splinters are tiny anyway. The round itself is rather tiny too. Now Mine shells have thin walls and generate even tinier fragments than normally, the main thing there is the blast pressure's destructive effect. That's mighty effective in a small radius because the pressure is huge, but it quickly goes away. Fragments may fly further though.

Yes, I know. There's more on the subject pressure vs. splinters when it comes to bombs, but the principles remain the same. A mine bomb will blow up a small house, but won't do much inside a hangar. A splinter bomb will not blow up either, but will to both do extensive internal damage and some damage to the walls. Likewise, the 20mm mine shells are very effective against small compartments, in particular fighter wings. The 23mm shells with the larger amount of splinters will relatively gain as the compartment size increases. So when inside say a B-17 fuselage, almost all damage will be due to splinters, and in that case the 23mm round will do a lot more than the 20mm mine shell.

[Cpt_Branko]

Splinters contribute of course, but practically all their kinetic energy comes from the explosive load. It can't just magically conjure it up, you will just end up with bigger, but slower flying fragments. As an analouge, if you fire the same bullet from same gun but with half the powder charge, it will be less powerful.

 

That is 100% true for bombs, but for a shell moving at very high speed, a good part of the splinters - those specifically moving in the forward arc - derive a lot of their kinetic energy from the movement of the shell itself. Logically, you'd expect much more damage in front of the shell (from splinters) from a faster moving heavier shell.

 

As JtD says, you'd expect this to be very relevant especially if shooting a larger compartment, where the damage from blast overpressure is going to be much smaller.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Cpt_Branko

[heist]

 

all german ammunition is week in this game...

 

 

log http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/795766/?tour=12

 

Gunnery Accuracy 22.6%

Number of shots 518

Number of bullets hit the target 117

 

when you look german guncameras, attacks on bombers, you will see that many seconds of direct hits, had no impact of bombers. thats ways probably germans developed that 30mm

so you video was actualy like reality from ww II. 

[306_Eugenio]

Please bare in mind how currently used AA ammo or AA missiles warheads are made. I think that looking from this perspective that WJA gun 23mm ammo was a step into right direction - high energy splinters and  than thin wall explosives.  

[Blutaar]

Most german guncam videos i saw are slowed down and had mostly big bombers in picture like B17s and the like.

 

I dont think that these videos are proof that Pe2s are tough as hell.