Can we dial back the effectiveness of those laz0r guided AI-gunners?

[1Sascha]

I'm sure this is the 10000000th thread on this topic, but I had to vent, somewhere.. :D

 

 

Three Pe-2 intercept missions in a row and three times those laser-guided AI gunners snipe me through the head at ranges from 900 to 600 meters - on my very first approach and with their very first bursts. Oh wait.. on one mission they hit me once and my 190's engine instantly quit on me.

 

I've stopped trying to creep up on the Pe-2s because that's a sure way of getting killed quickly. But even when I give them a harder target by using fast "slashing attacks", they still seem way too accurate.

 

In RL, defensive gunners on bombers were pretty useless unless there was a big box of bombers throwing out a "wall of lead" to keep fighters away. And even then, unescorted bombers were far from safe and a lone bomber was pretty much dead meat - defensive guns or no defensive guns. And that was true for bombers with a lot more defensive armament than the Pe-2 - like the B-17 or the B-24.

 

 

S.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I really want this as well, also the snipe AAA needs to be toned down a lot.

[Monostripezebra]

In RL, defensive gunners on bombers were pretty useless

 

I don´t reall think that is a well researched statement..

 

I can only recomend trying the other side, fly a bomber see if the ai gunner is of any use.. usually it has 0 effectiveness.. I think the problem is more, that the AI-gunners hit extremly difficult shots, which a human gunner would likely not, but absolutly fail at the easiest. If a fighter is dead six and stays there, they still fire some 30° off like they´ve lost their 5 dioptrin glasses, while they somtimes do some amazing snipes. In the lower settings they are more then utterly completely useless, though.. and I think anyone who has trouble with them at "novice" should maybe try learning a bit more. Speed and firepower and maneuverability are the strenghts of the fighters, and there are way too many people not understanding that before writing complaints ;=)

 

It also helps to know, that there seems to be some progression in the game, once the ai gunners have scored hits, they seem more likely to hit again..

 

 

But with a little bit of praxis and staying at the right angles as well as bringing the right guns, shooting down ai bombers is really easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8h7_OtOPa0

[1Sascha]

I don´t reall think that is a well researched statement..

 

 

Plenty of "anecdotal" evidence here, showing LW fighters "hanging around" on heavy bombers' 6s for quite long periods of time. In BoS, none of those LW-fighters would've made it back to base, since their pilots would've been shot through the head. Some clips even show them approaching boxes of bombers and thus facing 6x .50 cal times however many B-17s are visible (2 50s in the rear, 2 in the ball, 2 in the top turret).

And let's not forget that the B-17 had a lot more firepower to the rear than the Pe-2, plus its guns had better and wider "arcs" (especially the ball turret).

 

From all I've read, defensive guns were a danger, yes ... but their biggest effect was to keep fighters out of firing distance. They did not snipe the attacking pilots at ranges between 600 or 900 meters like they do in the game. I mean: In RL, planners had envisioned heavy bombers like the B-24 or B-17 being able to defend themselves by simply relying on their turrets. But experience quickly showed that this did not work ... at all. Losses to unescorted US heavy bomber raids were quite appalling and the problem of not having a fighter capable of escorting the bombers all the way to target and back was seen as quite a serious one by the Allies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Raid_on_Schweinfurt

 

 

 

Of the 291 B-17 Flying Fortresses sent on the mission, 60 were lost outright, another 17 damaged so heavily that they had to be scrapped, and another 121 had varying degrees of battle damage. Outright losses represented over 26% of the attacking force.

 

 

 

unescorted daylight bomber raids deep into Germany were suspended until the February 1944 Big Week missions with P-51B Mustang escorts that included additional Schweinfurt day/night USAAF/RAF bombing on the 24th.

Edited July 8, 2016 by 1Sascha

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A. Pokryshkin was nearly killed by a Ju-88 rear gunner when attacking from below, the bullets bounced off the edge of the gun sight and cut his parachute strap on the shoulder. Had they not hit the gun sight they were headed straight to his face. A month or two later another MiG-3 pilot from 55 IAP went in against a group of Ju-88s from above and died before getting close, from a direct hit as well. Il-2 pilots regularly damaged Bf-109s attacking from behind, and German pilots considered the Pe-2 a flying nightmare to attack for its speed and defensive armament.

 

Honestly, I think the gunners are fine. You can get hit if you do stupid stuff, but if you make a nice attack there is no punishment. Also, against a larger group you can easily sneak in through the middle and shoot up the leader from close up before disengaging. It's all about tactics

[Monostripezebra]

 

Plenty of "anecdotal" evidence here, showing LW fighters "hanging around" on heavy bombers' 6s for quite long periods of time.

 

That is a well known vid, from the schiessschule, it actually shows a lot of cases of what not do.. There are even books on what planes with what guys that are, the guys hanging close are like the 4-5th attacker with the bomber crew beeing dead, you can even see the dead if you look closely and note the gun positions.

 

For that 60ies B17 lost on the Schweinfuhrt raid by 7 expert jastas, partly specialised in bomber intecept coming with with rockets (Werfergranaten), the B17 shot down over 30 fighters. It wasn´t  exactly all a cakewalk..

 

 

our AI-reargunners are not that effective when engaged with heavy stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8h7_OtOPa0

Edited July 9, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[CUJO_1970]

While I somewhat agree on the gunners, the flak in this sim is absurd in its ability to track you and shoot you down.

[MiloMorai]

 

Many of those bombers show no return fire. One even has the guns pointing straight down from the ball turret.

[CUJO_1970]

Many of those bombers show no return fire. One even has the guns pointing straight down from the ball turret.

Yes, what are your thoughts on the rear gunner effectiveness in the Pe-2 as modeled in the sim?

[LukeFF]

Yes, what are your thoughts on the rear gunner effectiveness in the Pe-2 as modeled in the sim?

I personally see no problem with it.

Edited July 13, 2016 by LukeFF