Flaps again........

[Dakpilot]

Another example: A full 2.5 minutes of continuous flapping around with split flaps (around 8 min into the clip). And no, I’m not suggesting this is a realistic combat. In fact in my OP I’m saying exactly the opposite: The flying here proves the flap FM is wrong IMHO:  The players adapt their flying to the BoS FM and the BoS FM favours the flap usage we see in the clip. Again, no semblance to IRL because this is not how flight mechanics work IRL. If it did then like was said earlier, we would have heard about it and there would be the pilot accounts we don’t have because I don’t believe they exist: All we have are accounts of limited use under special conditions which is all fair and square: However flapping about for a full 2.5 minutes? Not so much……..

 

Another thing: Of course the flap FM we see ingame can be beaten by using team tactics, attacking from the right conditions, flying to the strength of your airplane etc. but then so can you adapt to basically anything being wrong with the FM: For example, if the Fw-190 was faster or climbed better in BoS than IRL would that be any different? You could still catch it in a LaGG if you had the right conditions, i.e. the Fw-190 was slower or lower to begin with. Does not matter that the top speed is faster than IRL as long as you have the right starting conditions which could be a sufficiently high altitude or speed to begin with. So even if you can adapt that does not make it any more right than the flap FM. If it’s wrong it’s wrong and the flap FM should be corrected so it become like any other asset in the pilots toolbox: An asset to be used under the right conditions. If this was done then I wager the flap abuse would stop and we would see a more historically aligned usage. Also, maybe I should clarify that when I say flap FM I mean the flight mechanics with flaps deployed: What is actually wrong in the FM could also be the propeller efficiency or drag model in general at low speed since they all interact: The flaps allow you to fly slower thereby increasing both induced drag added to the increased parasitic and vortex drag and the slower speed decreases the propeller efficiency due to the reduced advance ratio while the constant power but slower speed boosts your thrust so it gets complex but that does not change the fact that something seems off.

 

Anyway: While there have been a lot of good input so far with views from a lot of different angles, IMHO nothing has yet surfaced that changes my opinion that what I see in these clips looks weird and indicates that the flap FM is wrong because to me it looks like the players in the tournament have found what in the gaming word is called an exploit and  IMHO exploit is the word to use here because nowhere ever, have I seen a pilot account coming anywhere close to what you see in the clip I linked.

 

Finally: For those of you who are saying the tournament guys are doing this “wrong” by using flaps in the current BoS FM the way they do why don’t you join up and become king of the hill if you know better? I would love to see that but I’m not holding my breath because if there was a better way then I think they would have found it by now.

 

 

All of the Vid links you have posted were uploaded (pre patch 1.106) before the global Flap FM patch was released, I think it is only reasonable to use the Current version 2.002b for making FM comments on youtube Vids

 

Not saying things are perfect but...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[JG13_opcode]

I repeat - you won't find anything odd with the polars, at least you won't find too low drag figures. I've tested that.

 

What you'll find is insane low speed lift with flaps down at full power, plus next to no ill effect on control effectiveness and characteristics in this condition.

 

I believe you - I was just thinking that somewhere else on these boards I remember reading someone (you also?) saying they'd tested the Yak and the Clmax was too high.

 

Might get some interesting/illuminating results.

[Kurfurst]

There is no leap of logic here. The best way to use the Fw is by keeping her fast and NOT using the flaps. Artificially introducing them to the fight is the first problem. 1v1's in the middle of an open map with no possibility of the cavalry arriving is also artificial. You use a completely made up situation to which you apply an even more artificial solution to come to a conclusion. Sorry but this is an intellectual exercise and not a valid tactic in the Fw. I agree that flaps have problems in their implementation and the Fw has it's own set of problems but popping flaps on her is a recipe for "virtual" death. I'm sure those duel pilots have more skill than I can muster but flying the Fw to it's strength will yield better results or a wingman coming in full bore with guns blazing and flaps stowed brings that 1v1 confrontation to a rapid end.

 

All those factors combined? That is a HUGE leap in logic.

 

 

'Taktik ohne Technik ist hilflos; Technik ohne Taktik ist sinnlos.'

[Holtzauge]

All of the Vid links you have posted were uploaded (pre patch 1.106) before the global Flap FM patch was released, I think it is only reasonable to use the Current version 2.002b for making FM comments on youtube Vids

 

Not saying things are perfect but...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Good point. Would be nice to see if newly uploaded clips based on 2.002b are different. However, I must say if there have been significant changes to the flap FM it does not look like the LaGG AI have heard about it since they are still pulling off the usual crazy stunts.

 

I repeat - you won't find anything odd with the polars, at least you won't find too low drag figures. I've tested that.

 

What you'll find is insane low speed lift with flaps down at full power, plus next to no ill effect on control effectiveness and characteristics in this condition.

 

I gave the flap drag and polar analysis some thought and I think maybe the induced drag is bigger than assumed after all. I looked at your table here JtD and to me it looks like maybe the induced drag is underestimated in BoS and maybe that is why your table tabs with the current flap FM:

 

Taking the Yak as an example: In your calculation the induced drag is given as 23% with flaps in and 59% with flaps out. Basing the Cdi on Cl**2/(pi*A*e) I get around 19.5% induced drag with flaps in and 49.4% with flaps out which seems pretty close in terms of the relative figures. I think the absolute differences may stem from different assumptions about the Cdo but what I think is important is the relative percentages: 23/59*100=39% and 19.5/49.4*100=39.5% which are pretty close. If you on top of this add the parasitic drag and 2D flap profile drag you are well on your way to a decent estimate.

 

However, I think these estimates do not capture all effects and are a bit too optimistic because IRL your lift distribution on your wing leads to the formation of very strong vortices when flaps are deployed: Since the wing lift can be thought of as bound vortices or vortex panels you get a very sharp discontinuity where the flap ends. This leads to the formation of a very strong vortex that creates a lot of drag. In addition, the junction between the wing and the fuselage now also has an even stronger lift discontinuity which also leads to a large vortex being formed there. Since the whole flow picture on an aircraft with flaps deployed is complex due to this vorticity it would not surprise me if this was difficult to model and maybe this could be the cause of the missing drag penalty when deploying flaps in BoS.

 

As a sidenote, you can in many cases see this flap discontinuity vortex when you fly in commercial jets on landing and sit so you can see the wing: In many cases the atmospheric conditions are such that you see the vortex core because the pressure gets low enough for condensation, not unlike the vortex phenomena you see at wingtips when pulling g’s. Anyway, just as the vortices forming up at your wingtips drain you of energy when you pull g’s, so should the vortices that form at the flap junctions and it would be interesting to know how much of this is modelled and if so how big this contribution to the drag is assumed to be. Finally, I assume that BoS uses some kind of bound vortex, lifting line, or vortex panel model so you will probably "see" vorticity being shed at the flap junctions in the FM but that does not mean they add the drag they should because my guess is that drag is being added "artificially" to the model and not calculated based on viscous flow dynamics because that would be a tall order for a home PC  to crunch in real time.......

[YSoMadTovarisch]

Ok, today I just saw 2GvShad_Barin today, and let's just say that he did some maneuvers with the Yak using flaps that looks like something that comes out of a Su 35 aerobatics video, he even did a freaking cobra.

[JG13_opcode]

Ok, today I just saw 2GvShad_Barin today, and let's just say that he did some maneuvers with the Yak using flaps that looks like something that comes out of a Su 35 aerobatics video, he even did a freaking cobra.

Got a recording?

[YSoMadTovarisch]

Got a recording?

No, it was on berloga server and it was just too chaotic (and I really didn't expect for him to be able to do that) so I didn't record, but you can visit that server from time to time and see him perform su 35 maneuvers with the yak.

Edited July 24, 2016 by GrapeJam

[JG13_opcode]

I fly the yak online quite a bit and it's a good aircraft but there's just no way it can perform Pugachev's Cobra.

 

Sorry. Without a recording I just don't believe you.

Edited July 24, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

[YSoMadTovarisch]

"Quite a bit", that's why. You only need to go to berloga server yourself at Russian peak time and see the "pros" abuse the flaps to let them hang in the air and then recover with so little altitude loss, in an amazingly small amount of space,

[JG13_opcode]

So did the guy do Pugachev's Cobra or were you just exaggerating?

Edited July 24, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

[YSoMadTovarisch]

So did the guy do Pugachev's Cobra or were you just exaggerating?

 

Not literally a Cobra in the sense that there was no altitude gained, he just pitched up while popping flaps, gained a bit of altitude, and just suspended into the air.

[JG13_opcode]

he even did a freaking cobra.

 

 

Not literally a Cobra

 

These sorts of exaggerations are unhelpful and only serve to increase polarization and animosity between "red pilots" and "blue pilots".  There was a reason that back on the old ubizoo we used to have a saying:  "ntrk or it didn't happen".

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

[YSoMadTovarisch]

These sorts of exaggerations are unhelpful and only serve to increase polarization and animosity between "red pilots" and "blue pilots".  There was a reason that back on the old ubizoo we used to have a saying:  "ntrk or it didn't happen".

 

I considered it a cobra because the altitude gained was like 2/3 of the length of the aircraft, only the Su 35 is able to gain no altitude while performing the cobra, while the Su 27 and the F22 aren't

Edited July 25, 2016 by GrapeJam