Flaps again........

[Holtzauge]

I know this has been discussed before but since I obviously have naively been trying to fly this sim in a historical fashion I was not aware of just how big this problem really is before this weekend.

 

Lately I have been fiddling around with the Fw-190 against the AI trying to figure out the best way to beat them and it’s been bugging me that the Russian AI pop flaps all the time and prop hang so I have tried different ways to counter that. You can of course do it in a conventional way without flaps but by chance I was reading another thread the other day which linked to 1 versus 1 duel tournaments (GOVPTV) and it finally dawned on me what I was doing wrong to game the game: The answer is there as plain as day and the answer is flaps, then some more flaps topped off with a generous helping of even more flaps….

 

Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsnGDpEl6Z0

 

Frankly I was disappointed by what I saw…..So this is how to be successful in this sim? It’s all about flaps?

 

Armed with this knowledge I started some new trials in the Fw-190 against the LaGG AI. This time I started using flaps myself and lo and behold: By judicious popping of flaps it was possible to “game” myself to a win against the AI by using the same tactics as the AI, i.e. using the IL-2 BoS flap FM to get into a firing position.

 

Needless to say I’m disappointed with this new discovery and seeing that it’s not just the AI who game the FM since the pros in 1 x 1 tournaments do the same and it seems to be an integral part of the Il-2 FM for all planes.

 

So how does this tie in with IRL aerodynamics? The fact is that split flaps have two advantages: One is that they increase lift but the other is that they produce a lot of drag which provides a good steep glide path when landing. Who IRL ever flew around popping split flaps like this outside the landing circuit? Where are all the historical accounts of aircraft in prolonged manouvers during a dogfight with flaps extended like we see in BoS?

 

Again, this sim is in many forms outstanding. I love the attention to detail and most aspects of it are just great but seeing those GOVPTV clips was an eye opener and if we are ever to get some semblance to IRL like dogfighting in this sim then the flap FM obviously needs to be seriously tweaked.

[DD_Arthur]

I know this has been discussed before but since I obviously have naively been trying to fly this sim in a historical fashion I was not aware of just how big this problem really is before this weekend.

 

Lately I have been fiddling around with the Fw-190 against the AI trying to figure out the best way to beat them and it’s been bugging me that the Russian AI pop flaps all the time and prop hang so I have tried different ways to counter that. You can of course do it in a conventional way without flaps but by chance I was reading another thread the other day which linked to 1 versus 1 duel tournaments (GOVPTV) and it finally dawned on me what I was doing wrong to game the game: The answer is there as plain as day and the answer is flaps, then some more flaps topped off with a generous helping of even more flaps….

 

Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsnGDpEl6Z0

 

Frankly I was disappointed by what I saw…..So this is how to be successful in this sim? It’s all about flaps?

 

 

All the a.i., whether Russian or German or Italian use flaps in a bizarre way.  The a.i. does a lot of other bizarre things too.

 

  Are flaps a problem for breathers?  Not really.  Not since February's patch fixed the major flap issues. 

 

1 v. 1 dual servers?  Good fun but absolutely nothing to do with any sort of historical reality whatsoever.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

1 v. 1 dual servers? Good fun but absolutely nothing to do with any sort of historical reality whatsoever.

Absolutely agreed.

 

You can see the flap warriors in the video going at it in even terms because they both have their flaps fully out to avoid snap stalling in the LaGG-3. There were moments when they were doing rolling scissors and the one on top could have easily won the fight by retracting the damned things, climbing properly and doing a hammerhead to land on the enemy's tail, but instead they kept taking flapped-out pot shots at each other.

 

You can exploit the AI's flap addiction pretty easily if you learn the ropes. Merge, and always go straight on the vertical or at least do a chandelle. Eventually you'll open some good vertical separation and pull a rope-a-dope on the flapper.

[coconut]

The FW190 has two flaps positions, so I'm not surprised that using the first position at judicious times during combat would give you an advantage. So does constantly adjusting trim and stabilizers during combat. Easy to do in a simulation/game, and because of that maybe overused compared to historical usage. If you want combat that follows certain rules and do a reenactment of sorts, the participants have to agree on it. Not that it matters much anyway, in a many vs many coop realistic setting, positioning, communicating and awareness matter a lot more. Whatever problem there might or might not be with flaps, it's not affecting my enjoyment at all.

[Holtzauge]

All the a.i., whether Russian or German or Italian use flaps in a bizarre way.  The a.i. does a lot of other bizarre things too.

 

  Are flaps a problem for breathers?  Not really.  Not since February's patch fixed the major flap issues. 

 

1 v. 1 dual servers?  Good fun but absolutely nothing to do with any sort of historical reality whatsoever.

 

Well, I do agree flaps can be fun in some sense since you (and the AI) can do crazy stuff with them but the historical aspect bugs me: I want the FM to be as close to the real McCoy but seeing all the flaps out flying puts me off my lunch. 

 

Things would be hunky dory if the problem was isolated to the tournament flying but since you can use the same tactics yourself and the AI use them all the time it messes up the game IMHO.

 

Absolutely agreed.

 

You can see the flap warriors in the video going at it in even terms because they both have their flaps fully out to avoid snap stalling in the LaGG-3. There were moments when they were doing rolling scissors and the one on top could have easily won the fight by retracting the damned things, climbing properly and doing a hammerhead to land on the enemy's tail, but instead they kept taking flapped-out pot shots at each other.

 

You can exploit the AI's flap addiction pretty easily if you learn the ropes. Merge, and always go straight on the vertical or at least do a chandelle. Eventually you'll open some good vertical separation and pull a rope-a-dope on the flapper.

 

Well the problem with this reasoning is that IF it was better to leave the flaps in, then you can be sure this would be used since this is a 1 v 1 scenario. However, the clips prove the point: If you want to win the co-e merge then flaps are the trick to use. If not why don't you challenge those guys and show how it should be done without flaps Lucas?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Holtzauge

[Holtzauge]

The FW190 has two flaps positions, so I'm not surprised that using the first position at judicious times during combat would give you an advantage. So does constantly adjusting trim and stabilizers during combat. Easy to do in a simulation/game, and because of that maybe overused compared to historical usage. If you want combat that follows certain rules and do a reenactment of sorts, the participants have to agree on it. Not that it matters much anyway, in a many vs many coop realistic setting, positioning, communicating and awareness matter a lot more. Whatever problem there might or might not be with flaps, it's not affecting my enjoyment at all.

 

But the point is that if the FM reflected the real deal you would not be rewarded for using the flaps like you do in BoS and the problem is that the AI uses this exploit all the time so it certainly does affect my enjoyment.

 

In addition, the AI LaGG accelerates like crazy as soon as it retracts flaps: When I retract flaps and gun the engine in my Fw-190 I am left standing while the LaGG accelerates like it was on afterburner......Is it the same on the servers or is this some AI quirk? AFAIK the AI are supposed to use the same FM........

[coconut]

 

 

If you want to win the co-e merge then flaps are the trick to use

The rules make this moment pretty artificial, and the multiple face to face collisions in the video show that. First merge you can't shoot at each other. Result is both pilots anticipate the merge and turn toward each other. Then they take their chances in the second face to face. Assuming they turn towards eachother after the merge, it's the only option.

 

One of the fighters could also choose to go straight and climb after the first merge, but that would give some very boring gameplay, as it could take a good 15min before the fleeing plane has turned his small energy advantage into a good position.

 

Also, when flying these glass-canon laggs, it's worth sacrificing energy to get a shot at your enemy. It's enough to put a few holes in the wings to get an advantage. In a real engagement, sacrificing energy is always risky.

 

 

 

But the point is that if the FM reflected the real deal you would not be rewarded for using the flaps like you do in BoS

I have my doubts about whether using flaps in realistic encounters really is rewarding. And even if it is, it's also high-risk. I would expect that the risk would be enough for IRL pilots to avoid using flaps outside of desparate situations.

 

 

 

In addition, the AI LaGG accelerates like crazy as soon as it retracts flaps

... Just as it slows down like crazy when you extend the flaps!

 

 

 

When I retract flaps and gun the engine in my Fw-190 I am left standing while the LaGG accelerates like it was on afterburner

How far did the AI extend the flaps? fully? Then that's why the difference in speed would be so visible. I'm not sure how far the 1st level of flaps extends in the FW190, but probably nowhere near the full-flaps the AI in the Lagg might be pulling.

Then there is also the rather disappointing performance of the FW190 just before the supercharger kicks in. Not a specialist of WW2, so I trust the devs on this, but this means that the rare times I fly FW190, I really really don't want to engage another fighter below 2000m.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not one for duels or such, can't be bothered. But I do love shooting stuff that opens flaps at the wrong time. The one time flaps have saved me was yesterday on a MiG-3, but in a very specific situation. I had a Bf-109 on my tail coming in fast so I opened the flaps to bleed energy and pulled a tight barrel roll which sent him in front of me. I paid a price foe that because I was slow as a brick and took a while to accelerate while the flaps retracted but it was a do-or-die thing. I later had to repeat the manoeuvre, this time going around two Bf-109s at the same time, and once more capitalising on the overshoot was impossible due to the loss of speed but at least I was alive.

 

During the same fight I had a head-on merge with a Bf-109 and he went for a tight chandelle but I opted for a zoom climb. Worked like a charm - I rolled and went right behind him, smoked him up and left. Had he popped flaps I would have shot him down since he'd be slower, and had I popped flaps I wouldn't have climbed enough to attack. Let the knife duelists do their thing, the flight model in relation to flaps seems pretty solid as it is

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

"Well the problem with this reasoning is that IF it was better to leave the flaps in, then you can be sure this would be used since this is a 1 v 1 scenario. However, the clips prove the point: If you want to win the co-e merge then flaps are the trick to use. If not why don't you challenge those guys and show how it should be done without flaps Lucas?"

 

Sorry, you took a little leap in logic there. It doesn't prove anything beyond this is what these particular pilots do while having fun.

 

Flap hangers are easily defeated by maintaining speed and not using flaps. Most of the really good pilots I've observed do this. The problems usually occur when you slow down to engage said flap hangers. If you stay fast in the German crates you are nearly untouchable. It's the guys who get into the endless turn fights who the flap hangers eat for lunch. Don't play to their strengths, play to your own.

[Holtzauge]

The rules make this moment pretty artificial, and the multiple face to face collisions in the video show that. First merge you can't shoot at each other. Result is both pilots anticipate the merge and turn toward each other. Then they take their chances in the second face to face. Assuming they turn towards eachother after the merge, it's the only option.

One of the fighters could also choose to go straight and climb after the first merge, but that would give some very boring gameplay, as it could take a good 15min before the fleeing plane has turned his small energy advantage into a good position.

Also, when flying these glass-canon laggs, it's worth sacrificing energy to get a shot at your enemy. It's enough to put a few holes in the wings to get an advantage. In a real engagement, sacrificing energy is always risky.

This was just an example. You can find other videos showing extensive use of flaps in the Russian BoS planes. Seems like Mr X uses them as well in the clips I have seen. The point is that in BoS it works and IRL you simply don’t fly like that because it does not work that way. As I said before, the idea behind split flaps are just that: They create a lot of drag which paradoxically is actually useful sometimes: But that is in the landing circuit to give you a nice steep glideslope, not to manouver around! If it did IRL produce the kind of results we see in BoS then the aces of WW2 would have flown like that. AFAIK they did not but I would love to hear an anecdote where a WW2 pilot flew like that but I bet you won’t find any because there are none. I know of one example in Shaw’s book where (I think it was Godfrey) used flaps in a Mustang to get the bead on a Fw-190 D but that was just momentarily and he almost got shot down because his guns failed IIRC. But again, that example was using flaps just momentarily and I would love to see an account of a multi-minute flaps duel like we see in BoS but I’m not holding my breath on that one cause I think we are gonna come up empty handed…..

 

I have my doubts about whether using flaps in realistic encounters really is rewarding. And even if it is, it's also high-risk. I would expect that the risk would be enough for IRL pilots to avoid using flaps outside of desparate situations.

Exactly my point: IRL you don’t, in BoS you do because of the glorious Russian BoS flap technology.

 

How far did the AI extend the flaps? fully? Then that's why the difference in speed would be so visible. I'm not sure how far the 1st level of flaps extends in the FW190, but probably nowhere near the full-flaps the AI in the Lagg might be pulling.

In the examples I am thinking about the AI LaGG extends the flaps fully. Magically, as soon as they are retracted, the LaGG surges ahead leaving the poor Fw-190 in the dust. This is a fact when flying against the AI: The LaGG acceleration is tremendous and using icons you can see the numbers denoting distance tumble as it leaves the Fw-190 standing when flaps are retracted. Realistic? Not so much IMHO……..

[Holtzauge]

Not one for duels or such, can't be bothered. But I do love shooting stuff that opens flaps at the wrong time. The one time flaps have saved me was yesterday on a MiG-3, but in a very specific situation. I had a Bf-109 on my tail coming in fast so I opened the flaps to bleed energy and pulled a tight barrel roll which sent him in front of me. I paid a price foe that because I was slow as a brick and took a while to accelerate while the flaps retracted but it was a do-or-die thing. I later had to repeat the manoeuvre, this time going around two Bf-109s at the same time, and once more capitalising on the overshoot was impossible due to the loss of speed but at least I was alive.

 

During the same fight I had a head-on merge with a Bf-109 and he went for a tight chandelle but I opted for a zoom climb. Worked like a charm - I rolled and went right behind him, smoked him up and left. Had he popped flaps I would have shot him down since he'd be slower, and had I popped flaps I wouldn't have climbed enough to attack. Let the knife duelists do their thing, the flight model in relation to flaps seems pretty solid as it is

 

Lucas: I am not contesting that you can beat someone using flaps: I'm saying that the flap FM is too optimistic and that the way they are used ingame and by the AI prove the point: You can in MANY situations fly the BoS planes in ways that you can't IRL. This does not make them invincible, but it sure looks weird when you look at tracks how some people (and the AI) use this exploit and I don't think it tabs with how flaps work IRL that's all.

 

"Well the problem with this reasoning is that IF it was better to leave the flaps in, then you can be sure this would be used since this is a 1 v 1 scenario. However, the clips prove the point: If you want to win the co-e merge then flaps are the trick to use. If not why don't you challenge those guys and show how it should be done without flaps Lucas?"

 

Sorry, you took a little leap in logic there. It doesn't prove anything beyond this is what these particular pilots do while having fun.

 

Flap hangers are easily defeated by maintaining speed and not using flaps. Most of the really good pilots I've observed do this. The problems usually occur when you slow down to engage said flap hangers. If you stay fast in the German crates you are nearly untouchable. It's the guys who get into the endless turn fights who the flap hangers eat for lunch. Don't play to their strengths, play to your own.

 

Well I don't agree with your leap of logic either: Just because there are ways to adapt to the current FM and defeat people exploiting the flap FM with slashing attacks does not make flap FM any more right and if using flaps in a 1 v 1 scenario was such a bad idea in BoS then Darwinian selection would weed out those users but for some reason popping flaps in the Russian crates seems to be the way to go if you want to be “king of the hill” and  my guess is that the guys who do this in tournaments are pretty serious  about what they do and consider this more in terms of e-sports than simple "fun" and if there was a better way to defeat the opposition than exploiting the flap FM they would have found it by now.

[coconut]

I just spent a couple hours against the AI (Ace) and got my bottom handed to me repeatedly. He's just a better shot than me. Every time I won, or did well before I messed up, it was the same thing: High speed maneuvers, at or above 450km/h. The faster the better. The FW190 is just a wonderful turner at high speed. Getting a firing solution is not too hard:

• With the lagg behind you, get speed, e.g. 550km/h. You should be drawing away from the enemy
• Turn left to get him to your 9. He will catch up with you quickly. You want him going fast too.
• As he gets closer, tighten the turn just enough so that he can't get a firing solution.
• He shouldn't be able to keep the turn, as he's going too fast. He will fly behind you.
• Go vertical, himmelman to get behind him
• At this point, you'll probably be flying at 350km/h or below. That's when popping up the flaps temporarily might get you a firing solution.
• If you can't keep up his turn, extend again, get fast, and start over.

Not losing control of the plane during the himmelman and actually hitting when you fire is the part I'm not good enough to do well yet.

 

All the fights that slowed down below 300 km/h I lost very quickly.

 

I had to use icons. I would never manage all the checking the speed, keeping track of the enemy and evaluating distance in an expert setting.

 

 

To the point: At least it the FW190, flying with flaps out all the time is not a good idea.

 

 

 

if using flaps in a 1 v 1 scenario was such a bad idea in BoS then Darwinian selection would weed out those users but for some reason popping flaps in the Russian crates seems to be the way to go if you want to be “king of the hill”

But as has been said before, this tournament has little to do with realism. How often did the Germans use stollen Laggs to fight the Russians one on one in these face-to-face duels?

Edited July 3, 2016 by coconut

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

There were Japanese aircraft with automatic flaps, and many American ones had a manoeuvring position which deployed them halfway. Pilots used them during situations similar to that - one-on-one level combat.

 

That being said nobody liked to get down to those speeds realistically, and there lies the problem in the game: people fly at 'flap speed'. In an actual scenario you'd be swarmed by enemies and though dropping them flapperinos would allow you to kill one or two enemies by giving you a good shot, the very next second a wingman would come from high up or with speed and send you packing.

[Dakpilot]

Regards to FW190 poor acceleration, is this not partly due to it's weight?, also I have read a few Soviet tactical reports specifically mentioning this factor (poor initial acceleration) and how they took advantage of it

 

Am sure Duels are/were obviously used for training to improve pilot competence, and will also have the same result in the game, operational situations with many aircraft will often require different tactics, although still require the same skill set

 

Is it common for people to fly with wingmen, or 4 vs 4 on these duel servers? just out of interest

 

as far as flaps, it would be nice, if the AI did not always immediately resort to using them soo much....as far as online is concerned, if people use them too un-historically I feel they get a very historic speed decrease...which was not always the case

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Holtzauge]

Yeah, I know, the AI are piloted by Luke Skywalker clones and the force is strong in them: They see through the floorboards and sense when you are ready to shoot and pull just that little extra to spoil your lead etc.....

 

Anyway, AFAIK a nice thing with BoS is that they are supposedly limited by the same FM as us mortals (unlike DCS where they use a SFM with emphasis on the S...) which is good but assuming this is true it can consequently be used to gauge the FM and the crazy stunts they pull off with flaps bugs me when I fly against them and I think this needs to be toned down because I simply don't see any connection to how flaps were used IRL combat when you watch how they are used in BoS. People keep swearing themselves free and maintain they never use flaps and that using flaps is bad yet YouTube is rife with clips showing them used to good effect in the Russian crates.......

 

@Dakpilot: Using TSAGI numbers I get a higher P/W ratio for the Fw-190A3 than the LaGG-3 so I would be surprised if the LaGG accelerated better. In addition, I'm thinking about when the LaGG retracts flap from a full flaps out scenario: It is in these cases, say the LaGG did not manage to get you to overshoot, he retracts the flaps and seems to engage warp drive while you struggle to catch up. I think your suggestion about the AI is good though: One way to smooth out the problem somewhat would be to change the AI behaviour so as not to always pop flaps and prop hang so much. However that still leaves the PvP scenario and as long as the FM rewards flap usage then I'm afraid we can look forward to more flaponeous clips on YouTube......

 

 

 

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

 

Well I don't agree with your leap of logic either: Just because there are ways to adapt to the current FM and defeat people exploiting the flap FM with slashing attacks does not make flap FM any more right and if using flaps in a 1 v 1 scenario was such a bad idea in BoS then Darwinian selection would weed out those users but for some reason popping flaps in the Russian crates seems to be the way to go if you want to be “king of the hill” and  my guess is that the guys who do this in tournaments are pretty serious  about what they do and consider this more in terms of e-sports than simple "fun" and if there was a better way to defeat the opposition than exploiting the flap FM they would have found it by now.

There is no leap of logic here. The best way to use the Fw is by keeping her fast and NOT using the flaps. Artificially introducing them to the fight is the first problem. 1v1's in the middle of an open map with no possibility of the cavalry arriving is also artificial. You use a completely made up situation to which you apply an even more artificial solution to come to a conclusion. Sorry but this is an intellectual exercise and not a valid tactic in the Fw. I agree that flaps have problems in their implementation and the Fw has it's own set of problems but popping flaps on her is a recipe for "virtual" death. I'm sure those duel pilots have more skill than I can muster but flying the Fw to it's strength will yield better results or a wingman coming in full bore with guns blazing and flaps stowed brings that 1v1 confrontation to a rapid end.

 

All those factors combined? That is a HUGE leap in logic.

Edited July 3, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

in BoS then Darwinian selection would weed out those users

 

And in anything other than duel servers it generally does because good pilots don't get into low speed turn fights in the weeds.

Edited July 3, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[DD_Arthur]

Do you sincerely think that fighter pilots didn't train 1 vs 1 dogfights at all? Hint: they practised dueling all the time. What do you think the modern air force pilots are doing? Practsing BnZ attacks? Let me tell you how it really is IRL; if you cant fight, you're out, have fun flying transports. Simple as that. I've seen so many ignorant posts like these saying "Fighter pilots didn't dogfight IRL totally unrealistic!!!1" It almost seems like they are trying to justify their own poor flying capabilities by mocking good virtual pilots and telling how "unrealistic" their duels are.   Its funny how people who make posts like these are always the guys who have never actually paid a visit to one of the duel servers. 

 

Also about the flaps "issue".....just do a little experiment, join one of these duel servers and challenge someone good, you'll realize how careful you have to be with the flaps.

 

Dear Mr. anonymouspilot, please let me welcome you to the BoS forums and congratulate you on your most splendid first post!  I think I can see already what a great asset you'll be to this community.

 

For your delectation - here's a little footage I took in the Dual server recently;

 

 

 

If you care to read my post again you'll notice the singular absence of the word "dogfight".  I merely happened to caution the OP against drawing firm conclusions on potential FM issues based on video evidence from the dual server.  Indeed it would now seem that the OP is reporting an issue with a.i. behaviour - something I completely agree with - rather than an FM issue.

 

I'll repeat it again for you; it's good fun but the dual server has no basis in any sort of reality whatsoever.  No one ever took off in WW2 to fight in single combat a pre-arranged dual with an enemy.

 

 No one.

 

 Ever.

Edited July 3, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[Bert_Foster]

There were Japanese aircraft with automatic flaps, and many American ones had a manoeuvring position which deployed them halfway. Pilots used them during situations similar to that - one-on-one level combat.

 

That being said nobody liked to get down to those speeds realistically, and there lies the problem in the game: people fly at 'flap speed'. In an actual scenario you'd be swarmed by enemies and though dropping them flapperinos would allow you to kill one or two enemies by giving you a good shot, the very next second a wingman would come from high up or with speed and send you packing.

Yes but these wernt split flaps. In the case of the NIK2 (the only one I think with Auto combat flaps) these were actually area increasing flaps. in the case of the KI43 "Butterfly flap" it to was area increasing though manually deployed... same with P38. In all of these there was a very small depression angle the main benefit was the effective increase in wing area. Even so you will still get a drag increase. To me there is a very small window when riding the lift limit that a quick acting flap will give you an instant little bit more nose authority (Available AOA) but it will cost you. If the getting the nose on works and gets you an advantage/snapshot that you can then exploit great but if you cant exploit you are now in a worse energy position.  Holtzague is spot on in his arguments here. Its been the blight of so many sims. ... great Term "Flap FM".

 

There is plenty of documentation out there on the benefits/perils of combat flap usage .... its all been posted in previous threads esp the Spitfire study and the F2A study . If you want to understand what Flaps really do in a combat environment then read these 2 reports.

 

As to Lagg 3 accel that is a really interesting observation. It would be interesting to see some actual figures then compare them to the FW 1G accel rates then refrence them back to each aircraft's relative climb rates.

[JG13_opcode]

Oh geez, back to the age-old arguments I remember on the ubizoo.  Flaps have always been a source of consternation in this series, right back to the 2.X versions.

 

Some people will prefer to fly in a historical fashion, even when the in-game reality is different.  Other people will use their aircraft's performance to their advantage, whether or not that agrees with the historical reality.

 

Is the pilot who knows his plane and flies to its advantage really being ahistorical?  I'm not so sure that Hartmann/Marseille/Kozhedub/Pokryshkin/Bong/Boyington/whoever else wouldn't have done the same.

 

If the FM is inaccurate, then it's inaccurate and should be corrected.  But let's all try to avoid passing value judgments simply because someone chooses to fly to win, hmm?  I see lots of flap usage on 190s online as well, so it's not just a "russian problem".

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I agree, good FM 's should be the goal. I'm not overly concerned about gaming the game because, try as some do to make it virtual reality, in the end it's just a game. I enjoy it immensely for what it is. And if you are flap hanging you are just a slow yet maneuverable target.

[JtD]

In my flaps drag test done before flaps drag was increased for some aircraft, I did not find that flaps didn't cause enough drag. Quite the opposite imho - some aircraft were about right, while on some flaps caused too much drag. The developers apparently had a different opinion and increased drag for some of the lower drag flaps. In this regard, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong the flaps.

 

However, also mentioned before, the very pronounced propeller slipstream in combination with the very easy lowest speed handling give the aircraft low speed fighting capabilities that imho are unrealistic. And unfortunately, the AI likes to make use of that, a lot.

[CisTer-dB-]

To me it seams that the drag involve with the flaps down aren't modded correctly. Just pay attention next time to the flaps down yak that out climb 109's   

Edited July 4, 2016 by ATAG_dB

[JtD]

This rumour keeps popping up, but it is not true. Flaps decrease the climb rate of the Yak. The Bf109F&G have climb rates superior to that of the S69 Yak-1, even more so if the Yak-1 climbs flaps out. It's been tested time and again, always with the same result.

 

The impression of a good climb rate comes from the steepness of the climb at low speed with flaps out, similar to real world observations of the A6M climb. US aviators felt outclimbed by the Zero, even when their own aircraft actually was superior, because the A6M would climb steeply at low speeds.

[CisTer-dB-]

Not a rumor I've seen it. Last time it happen we both end up in scissors long enough to be in pretty much the same states of energy, I saw him pop his flaps I went vertical and he follow with the flaps down like he had no flaps. I even thought it was a visual bug.

[JtD]

And after you had climbed up for 2-3km at your best climb speed he had overtaken you, flaps still down?

[Dakpilot]

Also important to note what speed the Yak -1 was achieving during it's climb out, as this will effect how much flap is deployed...also as said above there is a difference in angle and rate of climb, and the energy state at the end of such climb

 

Knowing your best Vx (angle) and Vy (rate) climb speeds and flying them accurately is an important part of achieving best perfromance

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[CisTer-dB-]

And after you had climbed up for 2-3km at your best climb speed he had overtaken you, flaps still down?

That was the plan but he shot me before Like I said it may be an illusion or a visual bug but it's not a rumor

 

o7 

[CisTer-dB-]

Also important to note what speed the Yak -1 was achieving during it's climb out, as this will effect how much flap is deployed...also as said above there is a difference in angle and rate of climb, and the energy state at the end of such climb

 

Knowing your best Vx (angle) and Vy (rate) climb speeds and flying them accurately is an important part of achieving best perfromance

 

Cheers Dakpilot

You should never achieve your Vy with the flaps fully down on any planes. The Yak have split flaps they are full up or full down, like a spitfire, when they are full down the drag should kill the climb rate, we're not talking about a few degree of flaps here.

[coconut]

ATAG_dB, I don't know how long you have been on this forums, maybe you haven't seen all the discussions on the subject a while ago. The subject has been discussed ad nauseam.

 

Regarding your claim of improved climb rate with flaps out, it's easy to verify or disprove it with an experiment. Subjective observations during combat are unavoidably tainted, and carry little weight as arguments in identifying FM issues.

[CisTer-dB-]

Hold your horse Coco I merely reply to this posting. This is a game and I consider it as such, we can go on and on on the this and that of this game but the fact is even if you buy a multi millions CAE simulator the flight models are off. A simulator is for the systems not the flight model, now expecting a small team to write perfect FM's would be naive. I am sorry if I brush some feather here but It is not my intention to have a debate on re-writing the FM's.  

 

o7 

[Dakpilot]

You should never achieve your Vy with the flaps fully down on any planes. The Yak have split flaps they are full up or full down, like a spitfire, when they are full down the drag should kill the climb rate, we're not talking about a few degree of flaps here.

 

Yak-1 flaps are very much not full up or down, when selected down they will be pushed back in by airflow, they are automatically infinitely variable depending on airspeed.....Look like a Spitfire but do operate like  like a Spitfire..more like an F4F Widcat but not the same

 

Even in the RL manual it is suggested to leave the flaps out after takeoff and let the airspeed build and allow the flaps to be pushed in and retract/lock at cruising speed to avoid sink when retracting, the obvious benefit is you are getting a more optimum L/D ratio

 

In game it works like this with the only difference being that you do not have to select this setting, there should be three Pneumatic flap positions and we only have the two, Yak flaps are not damaged in the same way as other aircraft at speed, as the airflow overcomes the pneumatic pressure and pushes them in 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Not only should flaps induce massive dragbut also AoA restrictions. Before the Yak flaps patch a Yak clinbing mediocre, than steep with flaps deployed up to it's climax, where it simply droped the nose and retracted flaps to gain speed rapidly and without any noteworthy loss of altitude.

 

Not sure if it's still "a thing" as I have not conducted tests nor expirienced this in MP lately, but it atleast shows something about flaps was modeled wrong (does not only count for Yak).

[Blakhart]

About all the people who have negative opinion about the flaps usage in the game:

 

I`m sure all the killed allied pilots have the same opinion about the flaps used by Hans Joachim Marsellie.

 

He was a cheater when he was owning them with flaps open to decrease the turn radius or slow down the plane...

 

 

:D

Edited July 4, 2016 by =LG=Blakhart

[JtD]

That was the plan but he shot me before Like I said it may be an illusion or a visual bug but it's not a rumor

If you get shot down before your superior climb can get you separation, the situation hasn't got anything to do with superior or inferior climb. But flaps do help in being able to pull up more rapidly, to maintain a steeper climb angle and to keep control down to a lower speed, all beneficial when it comes to shooting down the guy who's pulling up into the vertical from a horizontal fight at equal speed. It's a bad manoeuvre in the first place, and deserves to be punished.

[CUJO_1970]

In watching the original video, I have a question - could a LaGG-3 perform those maneuvers IRL, under any flight conditions?

 

These ridiculous low-speed, high AoA while fully controllable and with only the most gentle stall characteristics...it's not relegated to the AI, you can watch humans doing it all day long online when you fly FW-190 vs LaGG-3, Yak-1 and La-5.

 

Yesterday online I watched an La-5 try to catch me - following my FW-190 up to 18,000 feet by "stair-step" climbing - I watched the track afterwards and the La-5 pilot would zoom up with a high AoA full power climb. level off, build speed and zoom up with a full power high AoA climb and he would repeat this process repeatedly. Admittedly, I was never in danger at this altitude but that didn't seem realistic at all and it was pretty damned annoying to watch because although slower than me, it did allow him to stay right at my altitude or at least very close to it.

 

And yes, the La-5 ended up dead. At least I can say I appreciate this guys willingness as a red pilot to fly up high - so many of them just complain about it when you put that FW190 in a 220 mph climb and leave them in the dust.

[Holtzauge]

Another example: A full 2.5 minutes of continuous flapping around with split flaps (around 8 min into the clip). And no, I’m not suggesting this is a realistic combat. In fact in my OP I’m saying exactly the opposite: The flying here proves the flap FM is wrong IMHO:  The players adapt their flying to the BoS FM and the BoS FM favours the flap usage we see in the clip. Again, no semblance to IRL because this is not how flight mechanics work IRL. If it did then like was said earlier, we would have heard about it and there would be the pilot accounts we don’t have because I don’t believe they exist: All we have are accounts of limited use under special conditions which is all fair and square: However flapping about for a full 2.5 minutes? Not so much……..

 

Another thing: Of course the flap FM we see ingame can be beaten by using team tactics, attacking from the right conditions, flying to the strength of your airplane etc. but then so can you adapt to basically anything being wrong with the FM: For example, if the Fw-190 was faster or climbed better in BoS than IRL would that be any different? You could still catch it in a LaGG if you had the right conditions, i.e. the Fw-190 was slower or lower to begin with. Does not matter that the top speed is faster than IRL as long as you have the right starting conditions which could be a sufficiently high altitude or speed to begin with. So even if you can adapt that does not make it any more right than the flap FM. If it’s wrong it’s wrong and the flap FM should be corrected so it become like any other asset in the pilots toolbox: An asset to be used under the right conditions. If this was done then I wager the flap abuse would stop and we would see a more historically aligned usage. Also, maybe I should clarify that when I say flap FM I mean the flight mechanics with flaps deployed: What is actually wrong in the FM could also be the propeller efficiency or drag model in general at low speed since they all interact: The flaps allow you to fly slower thereby increasing both induced drag added to the increased parasitic and vortex drag and the slower speed decreases the propeller efficiency due to the reduced advance ratio while the constant power but slower speed boosts your thrust so it gets complex but that does not change the fact that something seems off.

 

Anyway: While there have been a lot of good input so far with views from a lot of different angles, IMHO nothing has yet surfaced that changes my opinion that what I see in these clips looks weird and indicates that the flap FM is wrong because to me it looks like the players in the tournament have found what in the gaming word is called an exploit and  IMHO exploit is the word to use here because nowhere ever, have I seen a pilot account coming anywhere close to what you see in the clip I linked.

 

Finally: For those of you who are saying the tournament guys are doing this “wrong” by using flaps in the current BoS FM the way they do why don’t you join up and become king of the hill if you know better? I would love to see that but I’m not holding my breath because if there was a better way then I think they would have found it by now.

[JG13_opcode]

To me it seams that the drag involve with the flaps down aren't modded correctly. Just pay attention next time to the flaps down yak that out climb 109's   

 

Post quantifiable data, or you're just wasting keystrokes.

 

Another example: A full 2.5 minutes of continuous flapping around with split flaps (around 8 min into the clip). And no, I’m not suggesting this is a realistic combat. In fact in my OP I’m saying exactly the opposite: The flying here proves the flap FM is wrong IMHO:  The players adapt their flying to the BoS FM and the BoS FM favours the flap usage we see in the clip. Again, no semblance to IRL because this is not how flight mechanics work IRL. If it did then like was said earlier, we would have heard about it and there would be the pilot accounts we don’t have because I don’t believe they exist: All we have are accounts of limited use under special conditions which is all fair and square: However flapping about for a full 2.5 minutes? Not so much……..

 

Another thing: Of course the flap FM we see ingame can be beaten by using team tactics, attacking from the right conditions, flying to the strength of your airplane etc. but then so can you adapt to basically anything being wrong with the FM: For example, if the Fw-190 was faster or climbed better in BoS than IRL would that be any different? You could still catch it in a LaGG if you had the right conditions, i.e. the Fw-190 was slower or lower to begin with. Does not matter that the top speed is faster than IRL as long as you have the right starting conditions which could be a sufficiently high altitude or speed to begin with. So even if you can adapt that does not make it any more right than the flap FM. If it’s wrong it’s wrong and the flap FM should be corrected so it become like any other asset in the pilots toolbox: An asset to be used under the right conditions. If this was done then I wager the flap abuse would stop and we would see a more historically aligned usage. Also, maybe I should clarify that when I say flap FM I mean the flight mechanics with flaps deployed: What is actually wrong in the FM could also be the propeller efficiency or drag model in general at low speed since they all interact: The flaps allow you to fly slower thereby increasing both induced drag added to the increased parasitic and vortex drag and the slower speed decreases the propeller efficiency due to the reduced advance ratio while the constant power but slower speed boosts your thrust so it gets complex but that does not change the fact that something seems off.

 

Anyway: While there have been a lot of good input so far with views from a lot of different angles, IMHO nothing has yet surfaced that changes my opinion that what I see in these clips looks weird and indicates that the flap FM is wrong because to me it looks like the players in the tournament have found what in the gaming word is called an exploit and  IMHO exploit is the word to use here because nowhere ever, have I seen a pilot account coming anywhere close to what you see in the clip I linked.

 

Finally: For those of you who are saying the tournament guys are doing this “wrong” by using flaps in the current BoS FM the way they do why don’t you join up and become king of the hill if you know better? I would love to see that but I’m not holding my breath because if there was a better way then I think they would have found it by now.

 

Perhaps we can all agree on a standard set of maneuvers to fly at known atmospheric conditions, post the tracks/data, and use that to build some lift/drag polars?

[CUJO_1970]

Another example: A full 2.5 minutes of continuous flapping around with split flaps (around 8 min into the clip). And no, I’m not suggesting this is a realistic combat. In fact in my OP I’m saying exactly the opposite: The flying here proves the flap FM is wrong IMHO:  The players adapt their flying to the BoS FM and the BoS FM favours the flap usage we see in the clip. Again, no semblance to IRL because this is not how flight mechanics work IRL. If it did then like was said earlier, we would have heard about it and there would be the pilot accounts we don’t have because I don’t believe they exist: All we have are accounts of limited use under special conditions which is all fair and square: However flapping about for a full 2.5 minutes? Not so much……..

 

 

LOL, begin at 5:47 and at 6:19 to see what these Lagg-3 can pull off.

 

And they ask for better planes in General Discussion thread with which to fight the Luftwaffe

[JtD]

I repeat - you won't find anything odd with the polars, at least you won't find too low drag figures. I've tested that.

 

What you'll find is insane low speed lift with flaps down at full power, plus next to no ill effect on control effectiveness and characteristics in this condition.