Close up of Big Beautiful Doll going down

[Bearcat]

http://youtu.be/xctYWSuwoYA

 

The interesting thing about this bail out is he was pretty low to the ground.. I never did any bail out tests this week because I had so many problems trying to get my views straight.. but I think I will try some next week. I wonder how the other plane made out?

[SYN_DerHesse70]

[Gort]

The AD landed just fine. USAF fighters are fragile compared to manly Navy carrier aircraft. Amazing to see how much energy was transferred during the impact, yaws the Mustang dramatically. That' sweat happens when you pull like sissy and they guy behind you closes his eyes and yanks like a man.

 

If I was the 51 driver, I'd have painted a "kill" marking on the Skyraider and made the guy buy me drinks for life.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Victory205

[FlatSpinMan]

Wow! Just watching that and trying to imagine it from the P51 pilot's POV.

"Hit. Situation? Critical. Eject. Blow canopy. Get out. Get out. Get out. Get out. (It must have happened so fast but watching the video it seems to take him forever to unstrap, stand up and jump clear) Out. Check chute. Land!"

I can't believe they were both okay.

[Wolger]

http://youtu.be/xctYWSuwoYA

 

The interesting thing about this bail out is he was pretty low to the ground.. I never did any bail out tests this week because I had so many problems trying to get my views straight.. but I think I will try some next week. I wonder how the other plane made out?

 

The other plane managed to land safely with severe wing damage.

 

 

2 of them collided, below 2.

 

 

Nice pics from here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013219/Pilot-Rob-Davies-escapes-WW2-fighter-mid-air-collision-airshow.html

[Sternjaeger]

Rob Davies, the pilot at the controls of the BBD, is a friend and he always indulges us when we ask him to recount the accident: he just felt the jolt and realised straight away he lost his tail surface, as the stick just went loose in his hand.. it was a fraction of a second decision, he jumped out and hit the tail as well, cracking a couple of ribs, but fortunately managed to pull the D-ring in time (it was 3 seconds between the parachute canopy full deployment and him touching the ground). A very narrow escape, but it didn't put him off flying: he flew home on the same day, and keeps on flying with our team every now and then. Top pilot and a true gentleman.

 

The same couldn't be said for the French chap in the Skyraider, who never even bothered meeting or even calling him to apologise.. 

 

And yes, the Skyraider is a tough bird..

The AD landed just fine. USAF fighters are fragile compared to manly Navy carrier aircraft. Amazing to see how much energy was transferred during the impact, yaws the Mustang dramatically. That' sweat happens when you pull like sissy and they guy behind you closes his eyes and yanks like a man.

If I was the 51 driver, I'd have painted a "kill" marking on the Skyraider and made the guy buy me drinks for life.

 

there is just one culpable person in the whole accident, and it's the Skyraider pilot I'm afraid. Rule number one of formation flying is that you never lose visual contact with your leader, especially when you're flying aircraft with performance differences. He pulled too hard and lost the P-51 behind his wing, and that's a recipe for disaster. The accident learned everybody a costly lesson, but fortunately no lives were lost, only a beautiful P-51 was (which never burned or exploded, it just went flat!!). Flying at Legends has become a bit of a dangerous business, that's why several warbird owners avoid it now.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

The word "close" just doesn't seem to be enough.

[DD_bongodriver]

you don't get closer than swapping paint.

[Gort]

Rob Davies, the pilot at the controls of the BBD, is a friend and he always indulges us when we ask him to recount the accident: he just felt the jolt and realised straight away he lost his tail surface, as the stick just went loose in his hand.. it was a fraction of a second decision, he jumped out and hit the tail as well, cracking a couple of ribs, but fortunately managed to pull the D-ring in time (it was 3 seconds between the parachute canopy full deployment and him touching the ground). A very narrow escape, but it didn't put him off flying: he flew home on the same day, and keeps on flying with our team every now and then. Top pilot and a true gentleman.

 

The same couldn't be said for the French chap in the Skyraider, who never even bothered meeting or even calling him to apologise.. 

 

And yes, the Skyraider is a tough bird..

 

 

there is just one culpable person in the whole accident, and it's the Skyraider pilot I'm afraid. Rule number one of formation flying is that you never lose visual contact with your leader, especially when you're flying aircraft with performance differences. He pulled too hard and lost the P-51 behind his wing, and that's a recipe for disaster. The accident learned everybody a costly lesson, but fortunately no lives were lost, only a beautiful P-51 was (which never burned or exploded, it just went flat!!). Flying at Legends has become a bit of a dangerous business, that's why several warbird owners avoid it now.

Concur, but it seems that Rob didn't pull as aggressively as the other pilots. Kind of floated, or arced after the initial pull. Breaking out of a V is a little different than an echelon, and out of a Diamond is tricker still because there is still some formation to be flown for a few seconds until pitching out. Glad your friend was OK. The Frenchman owes him some very good wine, among other things. As you noted, there is no excuse for losing sight, and you sure don't pull harder while "hoping".

 

Was the French pilot ex-military?

[Rama]

Was the French pilot ex-military?

Yes he was (former mirage pilot and also former pilot of a civilian jet stunt formation patrol), with near 26000 logged flying hours.

The maneuver wasn't a formation turn but a break turn sequence after the "balbo" straight formation flying. The P51 being #1 and the Skyraider #2 in the break sequence, turn breaking 3s after the P51.

The Skyraider pilot lost the sight of the leader shortly after the Mustang break turn, then searched him on his left while tighting the turn, and recovered the sight on his other side, in his 2, but too late to avoide collision.

 

Not excusing the error of the Skyraider pilot, but two reasons may be given to explain this error:

1) during the pre-meeting repeats and during all previous formation flying, on Saturday and Sunday, during the same break sequence manoeuver, the Skyraider pilot allways initially lost sight of his leader, then regained it shortly after on his left. On all the following fying debriefings, it was said and considered unimportant by all debriefing participants.

2) As a former military pilot, the Skyraider pilot was used to dynamic tighten break turns, explained why he banked 60° then tightening to 90°, while the P51 pilot was banking 40° in a more common "loose break", generally used in meetings.

 

What this shows is that even very experienced pilots aren't free from errors, and that stuff that could be seen as "very minor issues" in flight debriefing could in fact be very serious potential problems.

[Sternjaeger]

Yes he was (former mirage pilot and also former pilot of a civilian jet stunt formation patrol), with near 26000 logged flying hours.

The maneuver wasn't a formation turn but a break turn sequence after the "balbo" straight formation flying. The P51 being #1 and the Skyraider #2 in the break sequence, turn breaking 3s after the P51.

The Skyraider pilot lost the sight of the leader shortly after the Mustang break turn, then searched him on his left while tighting the turn, and recovered the sight on his other side, in his 2, but too late to avoide collision.

 

Not excusing the error of the Skyraider pilot, but two reasons may be given to explain this error:

1) during the pre-meeting repeats and during all previous formation flying, on Saturday and Sunday, during the same break sequence manoeuver, the Skyraider pilot allways initially lost sight of his leader, then regained it shortly after on his left. On all the following fying debriefings, it was said and considered unimportant by all debriefing participants.

2) As a former military pilot, the Skyraider pilot was used to dynamic tighten break turns, explained why he banked 60° then tightening to 90°, while the P51 pilot was banking 40° in a more common "loose break", generally used in meetings.

 

What this shows is that even very experienced pilots aren't free from errors, and that stuff that could be seen as "very minor issues" in flight debriefing could in fact be very serious potential problems.

 

guys, we're entering a very delicate path here...

 

1) Where did you get this info from? I find it hard to believe they would deem this as unimportant. I didn't attend the briefings, but I know at least another pilot that took part to the Balbo. I'll ask them when I see them next time. As I said I find it hard to believe because you just don't to that stuff, especially when you have foreign pilots in your formation (the language barrier proved challenging in the past, with pilots nodding and agreeing to do something on the ground, and doing something different once airborne). Having said that, a "certain" Bearcat pilot used to fly a bit recklessly and had a couple of hairy nearmisses in the past..

 

2) It doesn't matter what you're used to, you break according to what the pilot ahead of you is doing, and you don't lose sight of him. This a military pilot should know well. Rob didn't pull too hard because it wasn't his plane anymore, as he just sold it to a German owner who agreed to let him fly at Legends for the last time. You gotta make sure of your formation mates' position when breaking, and not lose visual contact.

It is not a case that they changed the routine this year.  

 

And yes, I couldn't agree more about your last statement, pilots' egos gets in the way far too often..

[Rama]

guys, we're entering a very delicate path here...

Don't think so.

 

1) From various personnal sources, but it is backed in the AAIB Report who investigated the accident (published in February 2012 bulletin).

I quote (Bulletin 12/02, p.48):

On the Saturday, the first day of the airshow, the break manoeuvre was uneventful and although the Skyraider pilot had lost sight of his leader as he climbed and turned his aircraft, which he considered normal, he quickly regained visual contact during the initial part of his break. At the post-flight debrief held between the three pilots in the element, there were no issues or concerns expressed and no changes to the break manoeuvre were made.

 

2) I didn't say usage did matter, I said it may give a part of the explanation of the error.

That's what safety is based on: analysing the reasons of the errors, and most of the time "routine" is part of it. BTW, I just found in the AAIB report, it's also given as part of the explanation (p. 51).

 

This doesn't make the error less serious, it just partly explains the reasons of it.

[Sternjaeger]

when I said delicate path, I meant something else, I'll PM you on it.

 

The bulletin confirms my suspicion on how these kind of accidents happen:

"[...] the Skyraider pilot had lost sigh of his leader as he climbed and turned his aircraft, which he considered normal [...]" the fact that it's specified in the report, implies that it's not considered normal here. This goes back to the issue of having different pilots with different "habits" flying together. 

There were no issues or concerns expressed because the leader simply has no idea of where his wingmen are, and it shouldn't be his concern, it's the wingmen's job to make sure they know where they're going. It's a kind of "lost in translation" accident, where the guy at the front gives something for granted (as in the basics of formation breaking) and the guy on the wing does things his way because that's how he's always done it.. 

 

Again, it's good stuff they both survived and a lesson was learned, and that's all it matters.

[Rama]

There were no issues or concerns expressed because the leader simply has no idea of where his wingmen are, and it shouldn't be his concern.

There you're wrong. As a security issue, it's the concern of all the pilots involved in the formation fly (including the non-formation part), and the fly debriefing are made for them to express their concern.

[Revvin]

That was not the video I was expecting when I clicked the link...

[Sven]

Guess it's just like on a racetrack, you accept the consequences and risks beforehand, and as long as it's not on purpose you're just damn unlucky. No need for apologies, it just happens. Shame about the plane though, I love seeing them in the air.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sven

[Sternjaeger]

There you're wrong. As a security issue, it's the concern of all the pilots involved in the formation fly (including the non-formation part), and the fly debriefing are made for them to express their concern.

 

hehehe wait a second mate, you can't see what your number 2 is doing when breaking formation, you assume he's keeping visual contact with you, but how can you tell? It's not your responsibility, and it's not like you go to an experienced pilot during a briefing and patronise him like "so you make sure you keep visual with me when we're breaking, aait?" 

So yes, I think it's a thing that fell through the safety net, but again they've changed their procedures for breaking the Balbo now, so they've learned something.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[Rama]

Well, I don't think we really disagree. Of course during the flight, everybody is responsible for his own actions and the error was done by the Skyraider pilot, the leader had no way to realize the problem.

But during pre-flight briefing and post-fly debriefing, security is the main issue. So if, as it was reported on the bulletin, the issue of the lost of sight of the #2 on the #1 was raised and discussed with a conclusion of being "not important", then it's also a problem that should be highlighted for other meeting pilots.

 

It's good that they changed the procedures for breaking the Balbo. Didn't knew that.

[Gort]

when I said delicate path, I meant something else, I'll PM you on it.

 

The bulletin confirms my suspicion on how these kind of accidents happen:

"[...] the Skyraider pilot had lost sigh of his leader as he climbed and turned his aircraft, which he considered normal [...]" the fact that it's specified in the report, implies that it's not considered normal here. This goes back to the issue of having different pilots with different "habits" flying together. 

There were no issues or concerns expressed because the leader simply has no idea of where his wingmen are, and it shouldn't be his concern, it's the wingmen's job to make sure they know where they're going. It's a kind of "lost in translation" accident, where the guy at the front gives something for granted (as in the basics of formation breaking) and the guy on the wing does things his way because that's how he's always done it.. 

 

Again, it's good stuff they both survived and a lesson was learned, and that's all it matters.

 

There is a bit of a nuance of V or Diamond formation breaks happening here. The lead pitches up, and the left wing assumes the lead for a left break. The right wing switches from flying off of the lead to off of the left wing until that aircraft breaks. When that occurs, dash last looks forward until he breaks as well. That could explain the statement of "losing sight of the lead". 

 

A diamond break is more involved, as in this situation it goes from left wing, to lead, to slot to right wing. The slot must fly off off the right wing when the lead disappears. We maneuvered in a diamond around the day pattern at the ship as a matter of routine due to it's easier maneuverability over an echelon, but the break procedures were briefed and executed as per squadron SOP which was tested and practiced.

 

That said, as you break, you must pick up at least the preceding aircraft immediately, preferably as you roll into the angle of bank. Rob didn't pull very hard, but that is no excuse for the wingman to not horse his airplane around until getting a visual on everyone who might be a threat.

 

There are a lot of reasons for the lead to not pull too hard- you listed one, but a flight lead could have well been reacting to traffic or other issues. The lead gets to do what he wants, and everyone else is responsible for avoidance.

 

Running into your flight lead is considered a non-career enhancing maneuver.