CEM in new game, as compared to Clod CEM

[Krupi]

Totally wrong again. If you fail to bind keys/controls or fail to look up the defaults then yes you would need the mouse. That's no different to ROF or any sim, or and game, if you hadn't bothered to set up your controls before starting, I flew ROF the other day following an update and found that I lost some bindings so just reset them. Could we please ask you to do a little research before you post presumptions like this because when you get them wrong they are antagonistic and frankly you've already posted quite a few inaccuracies so far. Jason has had to demand calm already. Thank you.

+1 an infinite numbers of times!

 

I think Jason has already stated we're not having a clickable cockpit. I'm perfectly fine with the levels of CEM we have in IL2 1946. From my perspective I think it is more important to get the sim up and going first, then ad complexity to the engine management later.

There was CEM in 1946!?!!?! I must have blinked and missed it...

 

If this is going to be 1946 with better graphics then this will be an even bigger commercial failure than COD...

 

If this is a SIM give me CEM!

Edited December 18, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

As long as the major EM options are covered...

 

RAD

OIL RAD

MIX

Prop P

 

If those ares are realistic and properly managed I will be ok with it, that's all ive used in COD for the last 18 months.

What else is there?

 

ROF uses RAD and MIX, you still can over rev or over cool the engine, u can have a option to need to warm the engine.

 

I think BOS will have the major areas covered enough to keep "most" pilots happy.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Furbs

[Opitz]

 

If this is going to be 1946 with better graphics then this will be an even bigger commercial failure than COD...

 

If this is a SIM give me CEM!

 

Did Jason or LOFT or any developers said so? Hmm, than you know more than the rest of us... 

[DD_bongodriver]

As long as the major EM options are covered...

 

RAD

OIL RAD

MIX

Prop P

 

If those ares are realistic and properly managed I will be ok with it, that's all ive used in COD for the last 18 months.

What else is there?

 

in terms of EM thats pretty much all unless you include starter and mag switches, but that is a generic list, if a specific aircraft had something extra it should be managed, I think the scope of the discussion should really be about realistic cockpit management, realistic fuel management I would like to see.

[wiseblood]

I'm not really fussed about the startup process or whatever as long as there is some sophistication to the underlying engine model. To me things like having to switch the magnetos on - that's a complicated process, without actually adding any complexity to the underlying system. At a certain point - if it's really just a checklist item you would do once or twice per flight - there is really nothing there in it, it's just something someone could assign to a macro key and ignore completely.

 

The ROF engines - despite being at best as complicated to manage as having a separate altitude throttle and radiator, or throttle, blip and mixture - have a really lovely underlying model with really great feedback on management. So that say, an engine that is being mismanaged looks and sounds sick, it's not just a sudden kaboom or a light on a gauge. Even something 'simple' like the N.28 - with just a few fixed throttle positions, blip switch and a mixture control - requires you to pay attention to it and manage it properly during a fight. There are certain moves planes can do and others can't just from the nature of the engine fitted to the plane, and how the pilot manages it (or has managed it during the flight to the fight). So even if you don't have the world's most complicated engine in the plane, you have to cope with getting that engine through different flight regimes, damage and combat moves, with a complex physical engine model, where a half dozen bad outcomes are possible just from treating it the wrong way or mismanaging it.

 

So. I'd really like it to be kept at the kind of level where factors that are important during combat are prioritised, and factors that are simple checklist processes (eg something that is done once or twice per flight) are de prioritised. Then focus on getting the physical model and management of the prop/engine working as well as can be, and on getting explicable feedback from those things to the user. It's that kind of divide between - "what's the difference between doing this, and just saying we did". If there's no difference, maybe it's better to pretend we did it and add another feature to the model instead.

Edited December 18, 2012 by wiseblood

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Bongo?? you agreed with me?    and yes if a particular aircraft had a particular and important feature of EM, then it should be covered.

 

..what do you mean by "realistic cockpit management"?

Edited December 18, 2012 by Furbs

[Opitz]

Can we skip all phases of loss and grief right to the Acceptance phase? I guess not... Still in Bargain phase here... 

 

More about these phases here - http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/

 

 

Just move on and give devs some time to create something for you. 

[DD_bongodriver]

Bongo?? you agreed with me?    and yes if a particular aircraft had a particular and important feature, then it should be covered.

 

You know better than me on this...what do you mean by "realistic cockpit management"?

 

I did.....oh crap!!  , realistic cockpit management just means I'd like to see more of the overall systems factored in.

every aircraft has it's quirks, something to bitch about or praise, I like the idea of factoring these quirks into the gameplay, it makes a sim more than just airquake 'fire it up and go shootin', I thought the console style games would take care of that side of the sim community.

 

Can we skip all phases of loss and grief right to the Acceptance phase? I guess not... Still in Bargain phase here... 

 

More about these phases here - http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/

 

 

Just move on and give devs some time to create something for you. 

 

With your attitude then it seems nobody should discuss anything for over a year.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Feathering a prop is useful too, especially when you have more than one engine.That would be useful for us bombers.

[Opitz]

I can (and want to) discuss it too, but for a discussion we have to have some facts first. We can speculate too, but you have to ask simple question - qui bono?

 

I want to see/read something first to discuss it later.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I did.....oh crap!!  , realistic cockpit management just means I'd like to see more of the overall systems factored in.

every aircraft has it's quirks, something to bitch about or praise, I like the idea of factoring these quirks into the gameplay, it makes a sim more than just airquake 'fire it up and go shootin', I thought the console style games would take care of that side of the sim community.

 

 

 

Ok understand and agree.(whats going on?)

 

What i do think is a good idea(but not critical) is more DM in the EM, not just on/off, works/broken, some subtle differences in performance and sound of the engine really add to the immersion...think getting a sputtering and miss firing aircraft home

Edited December 18, 2012 by Furbs

[Krupi]

Did Jason or LOFT or any developers said so? Hmm, than you know more than the rest of us... 

 

Did you even read my post.. Tbh I don't know why I am asking, it's clear you didn't.

[DD_bongodriver]

Ok understand and agree.(whats going on?)

 

What i do think is a good idea(but not critical) is more DM in the EM, not just on/off, works/broken, some subtle differences in performance and sound of the engine really add to the immersion...think getting a sputtering and miss firing aircraft home

 

Yeah, the challenge of getting a sick aircraft home is more than just grimmacing and sweating while chewing on a cigar butt, every time you get home you deny the enemy a kill and that should have it's complexity factored in for a rewarding feeling of accomplishment (just as satisfying as getting a kill I think), knowledge of your aircrafts systems puts some of that to play.

[Feathered_IV]

As long as the major EM options are covered...

 

RAD

OIL RAD

MIX

Prop P

 

If those ares are realistic and properly managed I will be ok with it, that's all ive used in COD for the last 18 months.

What else is there?

 

That would suit me just fine too. I'd also like oxygen management this time around. Hypoxia if I forget to switch it on. A slight edge in violent manoeuvres when it's set to emergency.

[machoo]

One thing I really wish you could do in COD is just do an auto pilot takeoff for multiplayer.

[6S.Manu]

That would suit me just fine too. I'd also like oxygen management this time around. Hypoxia if I forget to switch it on. A slight edge in violent manoeuvres when it's set to emergency.

I agree.

 

I'll add G-forces on the pilot beyond the usual black/red screen... but I know, having pilot's fatigue is only a dream.

[Mac_Messer]

I think Jason has already stated we're not having a clickable cockpit. I'm perfectly fine with the levels of CEM we have in IL2 1946. From my perspective I think it is more important to get the sim up and going first, then ad complexity to the engine management later.

The question is : can the Nature engine handle it? Every engine has its limitations.

[Mac_Messer]

As long as the major EM options are covered...

 

RAD

OIL RAD

MIX

Prop P

 

If those ares are realistic and properly managed I will be ok with it, that's all ive used in COD for the last 18 months.

What else is there?

 

ROF uses RAD and MIX, you still can over rev or over cool the engine, u can have a option to need to warm the engine.

 

I think BOS will have the major areas covered enough to keep "most" pilots happy.

You see, basicly with the exception of OIL RAD, even 1946 covered the list you made. And yet flying 1946 and CloD with CEM was like night and day. There are HUGE differences.

For one thing I regret that we never really got to using the advantages the Kommandogerat would give 109 pilots. In BoB scenario it was noticable, in Soviet scenario it was often a matter of life and death. Because IIRC from about every single pilot accounts, the CEM in Soviet plane was a handfull compared to the Luftwaffe aircraft. This needs to be recreated in the upcoming game or we lose a big part of what happened in the air over Stalingrad. I really hope this will be made closer to CloD rather than 1946, because in the old IL2 the CEM was...well, hard to say what it was.

 

The very same problem will come if we are ever to get the 8th Army B17 scenarios. The P51/p47 heavily exploited the advantages coming from CEM differences compared to the Luftwaffe.

[Opitz]

Sorry guys, but didn't you lose a big part of Battle of Britain with great CEM in CLOD already? Why you still putting CLOD as an example how it should be in the future? Yes, CEM... Yes, one server with 50 people in the peak time. 1946 even it was much simpler, it was much bigger fun for much more people.

 

What I want in BoS is good and permanent online campaign and career. And of course much better AI than now, so nobody will know online if it is AI or just a beginner or medium skilled player.  

Edited December 18, 2012 by Opitz

[Volksieg]

Although I am incredibly positive about this development, it has to be said that I am sure I am not alone in thinking that, if BOS does not have the same, or more, level of CEM..... then I won't be buying it.  

As someone who had little or no interest beyond "German planes look well cool!"  (Always had more of an interest in the history and political upheavals of that particular time than the technical details),  I am sure one can imagine just how head scratchingly difficult and, initially unapproachable, CloD was for me - especially with the woefully inadequate tutorial!.... but I persevered, read up, researched online, asked around forums.......... until!   The first time I managed to get a 109 started up and off the runway gave me such a sense of achievement!  I still brim with pride when I remember the first time I sent a plane hurtling out of the sky in a ball of flame thinking "Wow!  I did that!"..... ok..... it was one of my squad mates but my aircraft identification skills have improved since then! :D  

This leaves me with a massive problem.  I loved Wings of Prey!  Sure... I knew it wasn't a sim by any stretch of the imagination but I have no problem with gaming.  I am just as comfortable running around Battlefield 3 and COD as I am ordering armies about in Total War or, indeed, flying around in CloD... sometimes I fancy Steak and other times I get a hankering for KFC.  

Cliffs of Dover ruined Wings of Prey for me, though!  I really looked forward to the beta test of War Thunder.... waited with baited breath as it took an eternity to download..... flew it for ten minutes, yawned and uninstalled it.  Even IL-2 1946 fails to satisfy these days... sure... it's good but is it great?

I feel, as a newly recruited simmer (I did play F19 Stealth Fighter on the ZX Spectrum and Atari ST but that doesn't really count. lol), I've been, kind of, spoiled a little bit.  I'm just not sure I could continue as a simmer if I don't get an experience, at the very least, close to CloD when it comes to complexity..... and I am sure I am not alone in this.

Heck!  I'm still a bit bitter about the CloD patch making it so my engine is already started up on Quick missions...  

Fingers crossed, though!  Now is the time to stay hopeful and, as I said, I am still incredibly positive about the future......  please don't make me eat my hat!  My head is too large for most high street hats and you would not believe how long it took for me to find one that fits me. :D

Edited December 18, 2012 by Volksieg

[ACG_Dickie]

CEM is not just about operating levers and knobs.  What makes the CEM in COD sophisticated is the way these items are programmed against the engine - get one wrong and the temperature suddenly flies and you have something blow, that has knock on effects as the situation is exacerbated.

 

As long as it's possible to extend the sophistication and that is planned should the first release not have many of these desirables then I'm cool with that.

 

This thread is good, it does show the development team the market,  they should heed (I am sure they will) or it won't sell.

 

PS, loved the point about oxygen - that was sorely missing from COD,  as was the 'too simple' startup procedure.  For those cited pre-flight checks,  in a scramble that would never occur - that's what a maintenance crew was for (with the exception of pilots checking the relief tube wasn't knotted by upset ground crew prior to their bombing flight)

Sorry guys, but didn't you lose a big part of Battle of Britain with great CEM in CLOD already? Why you still putting CLOD as an example how it should be in the future? Yes, CEM... Yes, one server with 50 people in the peak time. 1946 even it was much simpler, it was much bigger fun for much more people.

 

 

Incorrect.  SOWC is capped at 80 on weekends.  We had 100 on one day but it crashed when we all turned up up to smash up 70+ AI.

[Bearcat]

Enough with the clickable pits guys..    It is not gong to happen so get over it and leave it alone.

 

As for CEM .. I would like to see CEM divided up into categories that to some extent interact.. like perhaps startup/shutdown/weapons/fuel management/electrica/operational  or something like that. I know even in IL2 there are sime panes where if you loose an engine sometimes you can restart it by resetting mags and hitting start again. I think that if it is too complex though it will take too long to develope and I believe that the devs are on a time schedule and the last thing they want is to have us all sitting around in 2015 saying.. "Where is it? "  I would like at the very least to see a more detailed CEM than what we have in IL2. I would also like it to be settable in stages like say no CEM, partial CEM or full CEM.

[Volksieg]

CEM is not just about operating levers and knobs.  What makes the CEM in COD sophisticated is the way these items are programmed against the engine - get one wrong and the temperature suddenly flies and you have something blow, that has knock on effects as the situation is exacerbated.

 

For sure!  That is something I just don't get from other flight games.... that feeling, all the time I am up in the air, that something could go terribly wrong.... eyes darting over dials.... temperatures checked...  hearing a horrible grinding sound and knowing that, if I don't figure out what I've done wrong and remedy that asap... I'm history!  Throw a couple of spits on my tail and the rush..... THAT is where the addiction comes from and that is the reason I was still trying to play CloD even when my graphics card was woefully inadequate for stable play!  Take away the means for that fix and.... well.... it's like alcohol free beer or smoking tea bags. :D

 

 

I think that if it is too complex though it will take too long to develope and I believe that the devs are on a time schedule and the last thing they want is to have us all sitting around in 2015 saying.. "Where is it? "  I would like at the very least to see a more detailed CEM than what we have in IL2.

 

 

 

Yep!  I think if they could throw us a bone, bearing in mind the time constraints, and give us something approaching the level of CEM in CloD..... with a "Keep your eyes and ears peeled!  We are working on it guys!"...... that would satisfy most.  Of course the professional whiners will still kick off but I reckon they'd still find something to complain about if 1C Game Studios gave away a real WW2 plane of your choice with every game. lol

 

Clickable cockpits?  Loved 'em... gonna miss 'em too..  But it ain't happening and all the tears in the world aren't going to help mop up that milk. lol

Edited December 18, 2012 by Volksieg

[Bearcat]

There was CEM in 1946!?!!?! I must have blinked and missed it...

 

If this is going to be 1946 with better graphics then this will be an even bigger commercial failure than COD...

 

If this is a SIM give me CEM!

 

Bear in mind that at the tm it was pretty good considering what else was out there in WWII combat sims.

 

The question is : can the Nature engine handle it? Every engine has its limitations.

 

The question is can you let it go.. please let it go..

 

 

 Of course the professional whiners will still kick off but I reckon they'd still find something to complain about if 1C Game Studios gave away a real WW2 plane of your choice with every game. lol

 

You mean like this guy..   (sorry man I couldn't resist..)

 

Although I am incredibly positive about this development, it has to be said that I am sure I am not alone in thinking that, if BOS does not have the same, or more, level of CEM..... then I won't be buying it.  

[Volksieg]

:D heh heh

Well... let's face it!  I probably will buy it but I'd end up not flying it much in the end.  One thing I can assure everyone about, though, is that I won't then complain about it for the next god knows how many years, filling forums up and down the interwebs with diatribes about how I lost my dummy. :D

Can't promise anything, mind, as I still find time to moan about the cancellation of Blake's 7 and that happened in 1981. :D

Edited December 18, 2012 by Volksieg

[Krupi]

Sorry guys, but didn't you lose a big part of Battle of Britain with great CEM in CLOD already? Why you still putting CLOD as an example how it should be in the future? Yes, CEM... Yes, one server with 50 people in the peak time. 1946 even it was much simpler, it was much bigger fun for much more people.

 

What I want in BoS is good and permanent online campaign and career. And of course much better AI than now, so nobody will know online if it is AI or just a beginner or medium skilled player.  

 

Actually two servers if you count ACG campaigns, that's two servers that normally have above ~50 in, that's more than I have ever seen in ROF and both servers were full CEM and I didn't count CEM off servers in that... Soooo... GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BRFORE YOU TALK!

[SKG51_robtek]

The question is can you let it go.. please let it go....

What you are trying to supress here, Bearcat, is a legitimate question, no trolling or so.

 

A lot of people are interested what the limitations of the DN-engine are, is it possible to realize our dreams, if money and time is available,

or do we have to wait for the next engine to get what we want, if we ever get it.

[Krupi]

I was on ROF yesterday the SYN server had only just over 20 players online, at the same time ATAGs COD server had over 40... The numbers don't lie.

[Volksieg]

I was on ROF yesterday the SYN server had only just over 20 players online, at the same time ATAGs COD server had over 40... The numbers don't lie.

 

Yep... can't attack CloD for supposed lack of online popularity!  When I go into multiplayer, there is always somewhere for me to fly against human opponents....  the same can't even be said for Battlefield 3!  That game is a wasteland some days... and that is a popular console-kids paradise! lol

Edited December 18, 2012 by Volksieg

[Krupi]

Bear in mind that at the tm it was pretty good considering what else was out there in WWII combat sims.

 

Exactly, it was good for back then but no longer is.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Actually two servers if you count ACG campaigns, that's two servers that normally have above ~50 in, that's more than I have ever seen in ROF and both servers were full CEM and I didn't count CEM off servers in that... Soooo... GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BRFORE YOU TALK!

 

Krupi, he never mentioned ROF and what happened to "be calm"? he may be wrong about the numbers, but why the aggressive shouting post?

Did you read Bearcats sticky today guys, this is exactly the type of postings he was talking about.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Furbs

[Zmaj76]

I was on ROF yesterday the SYN server had only just over 20 players online, at the same time ATAGs COD server had over 40... The numbers don't lie.

on sundays its 60+ ppl on SYN and about 30-40 in flying circus....every night average on SYN is 40 ppl....

 

BUT

 

you forgot one tiny thing....ROF is WW1 and CLOD is WW2, so I think everybody knows that WW2 is significantly more popoular than WW1....but you know that....Bearcat already warned ppl to stop comparing  and CLOD but you wont stop doin this...My advise for you is to post on CLOD forum...what are you doing here in the first place, rather than sodomizing a game which isnt even released?

Edited December 18, 2012 by Tvrdi

[AndyJWest]

I was on ROF yesterday the SYN server had only just over 20 players online, at the same time ATAGs COD server had over 40... The numbers don't lie.

 

The numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell you what you think they do. How many were playing Il-2 '64 on Hyperlobby? As for the low numbers who play RoF online, I think it is a shame that more don't give it a try, but there just isn't the interest in WWI sims compared to WW2. If BoS has any real success, I think we will see decent numbers online, though it's worth remembering that it is the offline market that actually pays for the sims. 

[Krupi]

This is about CEM, optiz was attempting to say that because of it CEM COD wasn't popular which is entirely untrue!

 

Of course WW1 isn't as popular as ww2, which is a shame as ROF is a good sim. The question here is about CEM, CEM was not the problem COD had it was the reason despite its flaws people continued to play.

Edited December 18, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[DD_fruitbat]

This about CEM, optiz was attempting to say that because of it CEM COD wasn't popular which is entirely untrue!

Which is how i read it too.

 

imo if BoS doesn't at least have 4.11 CEM (which was a huge step forward to pre 4.11 CEM) I will personally find it a fairly sterile game. I want to simulate flying a plane, otherwise I'd play wop.

Edited December 18, 2012 by fruitbat

[voncrapenhauser]

I think IMO

As long as the product is playable,fun and acctually works correctly.

I would be happy with details as good or as near as possible(whilst still able to work) as CLOD.

ROF is a great sim, very enjoyable(lacks a little in ground detail) compared to CLOD,But IT WORKS.

I have faith in the Devs and look forward to BOS.

[Crump]

The CEM in CloD made it the most immersive and realistic air combat game I have ever seen or played.  It was not perfect but the CEM was definately a plus.  It is easy to fly an airplane but it is not easy to fly it well.  Landing is another discussion <jk>.....

 

A pilots skill in managing the engine systems should directly translate to performance just as it does in a real aircraft. 

[Bearcat]

What you are trying to supress here, Bearcat, is a legitimate question, no trolling or so.

 

A lot of people are interested what the limitations of the DN-engine are, is it possible to realize our dreams, if money and time is available,

or do we have to wait for the next engine to get what we want, if we ever get it.

 See PM.

 

Guys let's keep this on track and not branch off into yet another RoF vs CoD thread or else this one will be locked too.

[Mac_Messer]

Sorry Tvrdi, you`re being dead wrong here. What you are warning us for? Using CloD as an example? Are you for real? You best reread what Jason Williams said

 

Talk about flight-simming and aviation, foster a feeling of friendship and brotherhood in your hobby. This us vs. them mentality has no place here. BOS will not be a direct sequel to ROF nor will it be CLOD 2.0. Arguments over which sim is better will be closed. Find some other way to communicate to each other in a friendly way.

 

As far as I read, Jason does not want to fight over which sim is better, but that doesn`t in any case mean that we are not allowed to post good exaples.

[Opitz]

Actually two servers if you count ACG campaigns, that's two servers that normally have above ~50 in, that's more than I have ever seen in ROF and both servers were full CEM and I didn't count CEM off servers in that... Soooo... GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BRFORE YOU TALK!

 

 

And how many players are/were playing offline campaign in CLOD? You know, if you fly one sortie in ROF, it will take one hour away from your life, if you want two, you will not have enough time to fly online. Also not all players are interested in online air quakes.

 

I dont know anyone from czech and slovak community who is playing offline campain in CLOD. But if you have ROF, you can spend hundreds of hours just playing offline carrier.

 

The point is, that you guys are just happy to fly online with CEM, but there is a huge market where you are not the main customers. I dunno how many times it has to be written here. Your model - CLOD model - was not successful. That's the reason why it was stopped so please don't push others to make same mistakes as their people in Maddox Games to satisfy how many people around the world? 200? 

You can see on Steam stats how much CLOD was played and this is not really nice statistic.

 

And stop be so jumpy if someone says something about CLOD. And stop using uppercase letters, OK? You are not on banana forum here...

Edited December 18, 2012 by Opitz