The FockeWulf seems horrific...

[GridiroN]

I haven't played the German Stalingrad side since I first got the game really. It was the first thing I did, and I recently came back to it, and figured I'd start improving with the FW190. What the hell happened to this plane? It flies like a lead brick. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're supposed to do in it, but I took it out in quick mission against a Yak and the Yak basically laughed at it. It has a wicked dive if you don't stall out, but it can't climb back up again and going slower than 300kph on the speedo = you stall and fall to the ground violently. It also seems to get out-turned by everything....I know generally speaking you want to air more on the boom and zoom side, but the plane does not seem fast enough or climb well enough. 

 

I'm extremely confused...this cannot possibly be an honest representation of the plane that terrified the British for a year. It seems like unless the FW has a massive energy/height advantage at all times, you're a flying bullseye. 

 

I've also watched some documentary sources that state pretty definitevely that the FW was a better dogfighter than the BF. Anyone have any tips...comments??

Edited May 28, 2016 by GridiroN

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Go on the FM section, there is a Fw-190 thread there where people deliberate and share their theories - are things right, are they wrong, and if so what exactly is wrong.

 

Ask HerrMurf for some help regarding flying technique, he's an in-house Fw-190 combat expert who can probably help you out. There is a thread (locked recently due to poor behaviour) where people deliberated on techniques for fighting in the Fw-190, see if you can find it.

 

FM discussions are restricted to the FM section under Developer Assistance, so if you want to discuss it that's the place. Beware of some types who toss around misinformation and all that, things can get dark down there.

[Irgendjemand]

I haven't played the German Stalingrad side since I first got the game really. It was the first thing I did, and I recently came back to it, and figured I'd start improving with the FW190. What the hell happened to this plane? It flies like a lead brick. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're supposed to do in it, but I took it out in quick mission against a Yak and the Yak basically laughed at it. It has a wicked dive if you don't stall out, but it can't climb back up again and going slower than 300kph on the speedo = you stall and fall to the ground violently. It also seems to get out-turned by everything....I know generally speaking you want to air more on the boom and zoom side, but the plane does not seem fast enough or climb well enough. 

 

I'm extremely confused...this cannot possibly be an honest representation of the plane that terrified the British for a year. It seems like unless the FW has a massive energy/height advantage at all times, you're a flying bullseye. 

 

I've also watched some documentary sources that state pretty definitevely that the FW was a better dogfighter than the BF. Anyone have any tips...comments??

Thats what everyone except the people that only want to shoot it down and the devs say:)

Maybe someday someone manages to bring enough prove so they finally change it.

[GridiroN]

Hmm. Alright, thanks guys.

[Willy__]

Its the butcher butchered bird, also known as The FockedWulf, what you'd expect, ? Oh wait....

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[LukeFF]

(yawn)

[Original_Uwe]

Fly the DCS Dora-you will not be disappointed, it truely is a butcher bird.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Blush

[MK_RED13]

Its the butcher butchered bird, also known as The FockedWulf, what you'd expect, ? Oh wait....

 

 

 

You are really bad boy!!!     

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Omg here we go again the Dora is totally a different airframe!! Wow some people!

[Jade_Monkey]

I do think that the last changes made it worse, but I don't have a lot of time with this plane tbh.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

OK, lets dive in.............................

 

1. In my completely humble opinion the Fw is not correct in all facets and has some serious room for improvement.

2. The Fw is not bad but you have to fly it in a fairly narrow envelope to find success with it (then again I road raced two strokes so I enjoy that kind of hell)

3. I am not an expert, just a guy who is hyper conscious of his energy state at all times

4. I fly for K/D and not outright kills so I am both opportunistic and do not engage in a fight I cannot win

5. I run as much as I fight, once engaged with a proficient enemy or from co-E, and never allow my speed to fall below 300 unless I am fighting in a pair. Fighting in the vertical doesn't always involve actually going vertical. It is fighting with a vertical component. Pitch for 300.

6. If I could shoot I'd be dangerous

7. There are guys here who have much higher scores than me already making comments above. Follow my advice at your own peril.

8. I work hard to bleed the other guys energy advantage when I don't start from an advantageous position

9. The Fw will outclimb everything on the Allied side when you manage your E appropriately

10. I extend and forget If I can't bleed the other guys energy. This ties directly to numbers 5 and 9. I'm a bit of a sissy.

 

 

Bonus: Again, I wish I were an expert. That sounds like fun.

Edited May 28, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Willy__]

As Murf said, you basically spend 90% on the actual 190 FM running. You should come with altitude and speed advantage, dive on your target, shoot it and bug out. Thats basically it.

 

With that said though, if you're flying in a squad, or even in a pair, it can do much more than that, but if you're lonewolfing, you do more running than actually fighting.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Not actually what I said. I spend most of my time hunting and making decisions on when to engage. I don't just jump in on everything. Your mileage may vary.

 

Edit: I actually see where you got that from and edited 5.

Edited May 28, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks for the detailed write-up, HerrMurf. Not sure about everyone else but my definition of fighter expert is not one that gathers endless kills alone, or one who complains much but means little.

 

A fighter expert is a pilot who shares actionable advice and information with other pilots, and helps them improve in whatever way possible.

 

I'm talking Galland, Mölders, Pokryshkin, Safonov here. These guys taught every last trick they knew and helped shape whole air forces through knowledge and experience.

 

When an FM (incorrect or correct) gives people trouble complaining is everywhere but it's the people who go and help others get around it who make the difference, so good on you for helping people out

[Dr_Molem]

FW-190 is fine, l2p issue.

 

FW-190 was a ground attacker on eastern front for reason.

 

FW-190 known as being a "great dogfighter" is nothing else than Luftwaffe propaganda.

[Wulf]

Omg here we go again the Dora is totally a different airframe!! Wow some people!

 

 

No it isn't!  The Dora's fuselage has been lengthened a few inches to restore the CoG following the installation of the inline Jumo.  It's essentially the same airframe as the A series. FS!

 

Its the butcher butchered bird, also known as The FockedWulf, what you'd expect, ? Oh wait....

 

 

 

 

Hahahaha ... funny stuff bro.  

 

 

We shouldn't do this anymore guys.  This is a complete waste of time.  This isn't changing.

[Wulf]

FW-190 is fine, l2p issue.

 

FW-190 was a ground attacker on eastern front for reason.

 

FW-190 known as being a "great dogfighter" is nothing else than Luftwaffe propaganda.

 

 

No, the Luftwaffe didn't say it was a great dog fighter; the RAF did.  But yeah, I'm sure you'd have a better handle on the issue than they did.  Thanks.

[Asgar]

 

 

FW-190 was a ground attacker on eastern front for reason.

 

yes...the reason being the Ju-87 was outdated and they needed a plane that could carry more than 250kg.

NOT "the FW perfromed worst as a fighter" 

[SYN_Skydance]

I can remember flying the FW190 in the days of Microsofts Combat Flight Sims. We would avoid getting into dogfights with it then. We would fly it much like HerrMurf mentioned above.

[Dr_Molem]

yes...the reason being the Ju-87 was outdated and they needed a plane that could carry more than 250kg.

 

NOT "the FW perfromed worst as a fighter" 

 

The FW was faster than Spitfire V and could outroll it, that's about all. In eastern front the combats were low near the deck, and Russian fighters were able to roll as well if not better than the FW, which is why it became a ground attacker.

 

Open your eyes.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Dr_Molem

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Is there a thread where the Fw-190 is mentioned that doesn't detail into the same old pissing contest with the same old arguments, ultimately leading to a thread being closed?

 

If this is going that route then I suggest we talk about that sparrow hawk. I saw loads of ducks, seagulls and crows today, which are definitely less exciting than sparrow hawks.

[Wulf]

 

 

The FW was faster than Spitfire V and could outroll it, that's about all. In eastern front the combats were low near the deck, and Russian fighters were able to roll as well if not better than the FW, which is why it became a ground attacker.

 

Open your eyes.

 

 

 

If you really believe a circa '41-'42 LaGG, Yak or La-5 could out-roll a 190, I really don't think there's any point continuing this discussion.  

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Actually my decision making process and hunting technique is largely unchanged in the 109. Differences once engaged are pretty pronounced, although, I still pitch for 300 if extending. The angle is much higher but it is my target airspeed for both types.

Edited May 29, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[DD_Arthur]

@HerrMurf m8;  once upon a time, before wife, kids and mortgaged bliss - I had one of these

 

 

and I raced it at Cadwell.

 

Edit;  was never in this guys league!

Edited May 29, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[LLv24_Zami]

@HerrMurf m8;  once upon a time, before wife, kids and mortgaged bliss - I had one of these

 

 

and I raced it at Cadwell.

 

Edit;  was never in this guys league!

Dammit, those guys are crazy!

 

Which makes you crazy Arthur 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I did Lightweight GP on RS125's and club racing on NSR250's and Aprilia RS250's. I still own the Aprilia but she's been on the stands for years now. Just can't part with her.

I was a decent but not great club racer. Mostly for fun. Kinda sums up my Il2 career too - decent/not great/mostly for fun.

Edited May 29, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

FW190 aces of eastern front book states that she is a better dogfighter than Me109 except for the tightest horizontal turn.

Only two drawbacks:

 

1. She loses power with altitude.

2. Vicious and sudden wing stall.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Thing is... It was quite nice and then it changed. It changed because there was a huge discussion and someone dug up some lift profiles which were different than the ones previously used. Then, once that was dug up ...flying the FW190 changed and everyone was up in arms again. Sometimes better to let things be as they are?

 

Its more challenging to fly in combat now. Be it right or wrong... It's really hard to say and the problem is that we're using anecdotes to fight changes that were made based on data. If it should be changed again... then we need more data points.

[=CFC=Conky]

I saw a sparrow-hawk today.

Relevance = 0

Don't care, I like sparrow-hawks.

African or European?

[ShamrockOneFive]

African or European?

 

And were they flying in tandem?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

He could grip it by the husk!

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Right or wrong FM u can use this plane to epic effect.

[Art]

FW-190 is fine, l2p issue.

 

FW-190 was a ground attacker on eastern front for reason.

 

FW-190 known as being a "great dogfighter" is nothing else than Luftwaffe propaganda.

Omg stop pls no more! You kill me ... utter nonsense ..  Western front was propaganda too ? British pilots do it propaganda for Luftwaffe?  

[Wulf]

Right or wrong FM u can use this plane to epic effect.

 

 

Firstly, it can't be used to "epic effect" at all.  It's dreadful; so 'twitchy' it's just a total pain.    And secondly, model it after a brick or model it after an F 22, who the hell cares.  If it isn't historical it's of no use to me.

[LLv24_Zami]

FW-190 is fine, l2p issue.

 

FW-190 was a ground attacker on eastern front for reason.

 

FW-190 known as being a "great dogfighter" is nothing else than Luftwaffe propaganda.

Is this really a common perception with you people? 

 

Every time it really amazes me to see these kind of statements here.

 

Please, take some time to study even the basics before typing this kind of nonsense here. Pretty please 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The FW was faster than Spitfire V and could outroll it, that's about all.

 

'About all' is an interesting way of calling a speed and roll rate advantage. One of the reasons the La-5 made such an impact during its introduction is because it was faster and could roll better than the Bf-109 at the common operational altitudes. The ability to roll fast means instantly changing direction as you please, which when employed properly is way more productive than stick-to-the-belly turns. If to elaborate, when you are in the slower aircraft that turns tighter, if you enter a continuous tight turn at 300 km/h the enemy flying at 400 km/h will climb away from your guns then dive right onto you.

[JtD]

I totally agree on the importance of a roll and speed advantage. But then these are not the only two advantages it had. It also was better armed, better protected, longer ranged, offered better vision from the cockpit, had more balanced controls and was much easier to operate.

 

It's unfortunate that not all these advantages translate 1:1 onto the screen.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Good points. The controls in particular are the hardest part to represent. The Fw-190 was easy on the stick and comfortable to fly, the Bf-109 got stiffer as speeds went up and was as cramped as it gets (with some reports suggesting the cockpit was so narrow that pilots couldn't take the stick all the way to either side in the roll axis), the I-16 was very twitchy to the point that bomber pilots which were converting from the SB often gave up on the training and requested transfer to other bomber units, the LaGG-3 and La-5 were on the opposite very heavy on the stick and pilots called them 'the Oak' for that.

 

One can concede that with time pilots get used to stick forces, but things such as space and comfort during manoeuvring are hard to recreate. I'm happy they introduced the jamming of Soviet cockpits at high speeds at least, it was a major problem and now whenever I take a hit I instinctively open the cockpit just in case. 

[Dr_Molem]

If you really believe a circa '41-'42 LaGG, Yak or La-5 could out-roll a 190, I really don't think there's any point continuing this discussion.  

 

Lavotchkin pilots said they had no problem rolling with 190s, and this is well represented in BoS. 

 

Open your eyes, a BnZoomer like 190 has no place at low altitude fighting (eastern front), so it became a ground attacker.