I just have to ask ... any plans for a BoB-scenario/-game?

[1Sascha]

Before I start let me apologize in advance if this has been discussed before.. :D

 

 

Seeing how Battle of Moscow goes "back in time" from BoS, I can't help but wonder if we'll finally get a good IL-2 based Battle of Britain-game.

 

 

Yes, yes, I know a lot of people will say that CoD with the Team Fusion patch is much better than the crappy release-version, but that thing still doesn't do it for me.

 

 

I'd be especially interested in a historic campaign (preferably a dynamic one à la Falcon 4.0). IMO, the BoB *screams* for a good historical campaign and it is the perfect candidate for this, since you could pretty much ignore any ground-related issues (no tank- or infantry-battles during the BoB) and focus almost exclusively on the air-war. Plus it takes place in a relatively small arena if you concentrate on the SE of England/NW of France and ignore the action further in the north. So the map wouldn't have to be that huge.

 

 

 

I'm thinking of a two-fold campaign where you could either be a "small cog in a large machine", flying missions assigned to you as a RL LW/RAF pilot would've. Or you could jump into the seat of RAF or LW high command and steer the campaign through strategic decisions - like deployment of planes, choice of ground targets to bomb (for the LW), etc.

 

Basically, an updated and expanded version of this game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain_II:_Wings_of_Victory

 

 

Plane-set wise, this shouldn't be *too* difficult, seeing how some of the main players are in the game already - albeit as their later versions. Early 111s, Stukas, Ju-88s (perhaps Do17s?), 109 E-3/E-4, 110 C-4 vs Spit/Hurri Mk I and perhaps some "oddball" RAF-fighters like the Defiant or the Gladiator and some RAF bombers/ground attack planes like the Fairey Battle or the Blenheim for anti-shipping missions in the English Channel.

 

Another must-have for this sort of thing would be the ability to have large formations of fighters and bombers in the air. Not much sense in simulating the BoB if you're limited to 16 or 32 planes in your immediate surroundings. Running into a formation of 60, 70 or 80 Heinkels, escorted by a ton of 109s would be an awesome experience.

Edited May 23, 2016 by 1Sascha

[Lusekofte]

Yes it has been discussed before, and you debated yourself about some of the answers you gonna get. And you will have people answering you that they want Kursk scenario first, and Med and North Africa, They even will suggest Pacific. And I say yes why not. 

But in all these things we want, are we people enough to fill up all these scenarios? 

I say myself please bring the BOB into this, no harm in it

[1Sascha]

Yes it has been discussed before, and you debated yourself about some of the answers you gonna get. And you will have people answering you that they want Kursk scenario first, and Med and North Africa, They even will suggest Pacific. And I say yes why not. 

But in all these things we want, are we people enough to fill up all these scenarios? 

I say myself please bring the BOB into this, no harm in it

 

My guess is that there are still a ton of people out there who would buy a BoB-game. Not everyone is interested in the Eastern Front - especially over in the US I would guess. But then again: That could probably be said for any sim that doesn't have B-17s, P-47s and Mustangs :D

 

I can only speak for myself, but to me, the BoB is probably the most iconic scenario you can get when it comes to WW2 aviation. A well done BoB-game would more or less sell itself, IMO.

 

In any case: I remember the huge scenarios we would run back in the MMO-sim "Warbirds" - and that was back in the mid 1990s. So yeah: There are enough potential players out there to fill large scenarios. And even if there aren't enough to man every plane on a mission, you could always let the AI handle unmanned planes.

 

Plus: I was thinking of a single-player campaign here as well. Not everyone wants to fly online the whole time. But if a single-player campaign is done correctly, it can be loads of fun without the need to find X amount of players to fly a mission/play the game.

Edited May 23, 2016 by 1Sascha

[216th_Jordan]

I understand you, however I don't think a new BOB is around the corner as CoD, as you said, has already covered that subject even though it doesn't appeal to me neither (esp. flight model wise).

 

I have to say that all those battles less known of have grown on me more than all those worn out known western scenarios. pacific would be an exception to this for me.

[Lusekofte]

Here is a couple of years discussion about this 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1316-poll-next-theatre-war/page-8

 

In the COD BOS debate I am right in the middle, I grown fed up about COD , but I played it for years to get there. 

This game is about to do the same but in a fraction of the time 

Edited May 23, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[216th_Jordan]

This game is about to do the same but in a fraction of the time

You mean getting fed up in a fraction of time?

[wtornado]

Here is a couple of years discussion about this 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1316-poll-next-theatre-war/page-8

 

In the COD BOS debate I am right in the middle, I grown fed up about COD , but I played it for years to get there. 

This game is about to do the same but in a fraction of the time 

I understand your point of view getting there too.

 

Battle of Britain ''Cliffs of Dover' modded like it is today is hard to beat I think personally Team Fusion brought the game

to its most popular high water mark.We will see with the release of big patch this summer but I don't think it will get super

popular like it was in the first modded patch.

 

People are out of patient and are moving on.

[Aap]

From personal point of view, since we already have BoB with Cliffs of Dover, I would prefer BoS to go elsewhere instead of overlapping with something that we already have. 

If they decide to go away from Eastern Front, I guess the most logical step is North Africa / Mediterranean, indicated by the inclusion of Macchi 202 and P40 as the special planes of BoM. 

 

Anyway, I hope they would create Leningrad / Gulf of Finland map at some point, which would work even with the current plane set that we already have.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think we'll go there eventually, but not any time soon.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I still don't understand the desire to fly during the Battle of Britain. I love my Spitfires and Hurricanes but there are so many more interesting scenarios with a good mix of bombers and tactical aircraft on both sides of the battle in virtually any other scenario. This is largely a defensive operation for the RAF flying bomber interception missions all the time. Unless you want to count that raid on Berlin that annoyed Hitler so much...

 

I definitely want some RAF stuff (the Tempest and Spitfire are still my favourite aircraft). Let's do the defense of Malta where the RAF also struck back against Italian shipping with Beauforts and Beaufighters. Or the Western Desert doing low altitude tank hunting with Hurricane Mark IIDs. Or post D-Day (hedgerows campaign, Falaise Pocket, etc.) where we would be able to fly Typhoons on wheel of death rocket attack runs.

 

Almost any other scenario would be much more interesting both with the aircraft available to fly and with the aircraft available to fight.

Edited May 23, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[1Sascha]

 

 

Anyway, I hope they would create Leningrad / Gulf of Finland map at some point, which would work even with the current plane set that we already have.

 

Well.. that has been done in Forgotten Battles... :D

 

 

N-Africa and Mediterranean would actually be a great idea. Don't recall flying that one in any offline-sim I've played recently. And if you chose the theater "wisely" you could have all sorts of historical missions there. Not just N-Africa, but also the fighting over the supply-routes for the Afrika Korps. Meaning Malta/Sicily should definitely be included on the map. 

 

Anti-shipping missions would be great fun, as would be anti-tank work/CAS in the desert.

 

Did they ever use the Hs 129 in Africa? If so: That thing would be nice to have. Always wanted to fly it in a sim, but other than the older IL-2 titles, I don't think anyone ever modeled it. I don't even remember if it was a flyable AC in IL-2 ... I *think* it was at some point, but I'm not sure.

 

 

S.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Hs-129 is flyable now in the official version, but I can't remember when that was done. It's such a brick though - terrible handling characteristics, incredibly heavy, underpowered and ultimately slow, with just about the worst visibility you could ever have on an aircraft. The damage resistance and firepower are indeed impressive though.

 

It was a bit of a sport for me on the old Il-2's official Shturmovik campaign to shoot the Hs-129s down after completing the mission when they were near my target. I racked up some 25-30 kills that way.

[Jason_Williams]

Guys,

 

We're not doing BOB. If you want that just play CLOD.

 

Jason

[Dakpilot]

HS 129 in Africa

 

"Towards the end of 1942 a number of Hs 129 squadrons were withdrawn to form a second geschwader, Schlachtgeschwader 2. It had been hoped to deploy this second unit on the Eastern Front, but the Allied successes at El Alamein meant that it had to be rushed to North Africa instead. The first aircraft from 4.(Panzer)/ Sch G. 1 arrived at Tobruk on 7 November, and they were quickly thrown into the battle.

The Hs 129's deployment to North Africa was a near total disaster. The Gnome & Rhone engines were not suitable for use in the desert. Their poor dust filter and tendency to over-heat had caused problems in Russia, but in North Africa they combined to virtually destroy the unit

The staffel's first operation was flown on 17 November 1942, and was a relative success, but then the aircraft were caught in two sandstorms, which did terrible damage to the engines. After the first storm the aircraft's already long take-off run had doubled in length, and after the second they could barely take off. Only once their weapons and ammo had been removed could they be ferried west to keep up with Rommel's retreating army. On 31 December the staffel's seven surviving aircraft reached Castel Benito near Tripoli, and only ten days none of them were operational. Three were then destroyed in an Allied air raid on 13 January, and three more could not be repaired. The surviving aircraft managed to limp back to Tunis, while the staffel's personnel returned to Germany, before heading off to the Eastern Front. 

This didn't end the Hs 129's involvement in the fighting in North Africa. In October 1942 5./Sch.G 1 had returned to Germany from the Eastern Front to receive new Hs 129 B-2s (with tropical air and oil filters). The squadron then moved to Prussia in preparation for a return to the front, but the ever worsening situation in North Africa soon led to a change of plans. Bad weather slowed down the move, but the first aircraft reached North Africa on 29 November. The staffel began operations on the following day. This time the Hs 129 was more successful, and the staffel didn't suffer its first loss until 22 December. Three more aircraft were lost on 28 December, all to Allied fighters, and senior officers in Luftflotte 2 were beginning to worry about the cost of using the Hs 129 in an area where the Allies had air superiority.

At the start of 1943 the staffel was renumbered as 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2. A shortage of equipment almost led the staffel to be reequipped with the Fw 190, but instead a large number of fresh Hs 129s arrived. The aircraft were now given a new role. They would operate behind German lines, attacking any Allied tanks that had broken through the front line and were thus without anti-aircraft defences. This reduced the risk of heavy losses, but also reduced the number of sorties that could be flown.

The end for the Hs 129 in North Africa was not far off. Allied control of the air meant that the aircraft needed to be heavily escorted if they were to be effective, absorbing fighter resources needed elsewhere. The number of aircraft available began to drop, and by 10 April only two of the surviving sixteen aircraft were serviceable. On 20 April 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 became one of the first Luftwaffe units to be evacuated from North Africa. It remained away from the front line until August 1943, when it moved to the Eastern Front."

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Jermite]

@Jason, 

Good, I would love to see IL2: Battle of Guadalcanal. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Guys,

 

We're not doing BOB. If you want that just play CLOD.

 

Jason

So, with that said we have narrowed it down to Med or PTO. Thank goodness..............

 

 

JK

 

[curiousGamblerr]

lol @ Jason's comment... that settles that!

 

I would go crazy for carriers in the Pacific, absolutely crazy, but I suspect N. Africa is more likely just because it will be easier to implement. (Carriers would be a unique game mechanic compared to what we have now, whereas NA would "just" be another map and a few planes.)

 

Would be fun to go blow up Rommel's tanks tho!

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

When it comes to building games around scenarios that have large formations (BoB, US bomber offensive, to name a few), all will fall short unless they can have enough planes in the air (256 in EAW by Microprose, remember them?   ). So until we all have uber-powerful NSA strength computers at home, and devs willing to make the investment, $ and time, we're 'stuck' so to speak, with sims that are on a more tactical level.

 

First world problem, be sure!  

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky 

[Sokol1]

I'd be especially interested in a historic campaign (preferably a dynamic one à la Falcon 4.0). IMO, the BoB *screams* for a good historical campaign and it is the perfect candidate for this, since you could pretty much ignore any ground-related issues (no tank- or infantry-battles during the BoB) and focus almost exclusively on the air-war. Plus it takes place in a relatively small arena if you concentrate on the SE of England/NW of France and ignore the action further in the north. So the map wouldn't have to be that huge.

 

Well, BoS/BoM campaigns format has not with that you want and you dream with a BoB version? Good luck with the usual "fight for unlocks".

 

 

since you could pretty much ignore any ground-related issues (no tank- or infantry-battles during the BoB) and focus almost exclusively on the air-war.

 

 

The lack of proper ground action in CloD BoB is one the biggest complain of "ground ponders" gamers against this (broken) game scenery choice...

Edited May 23, 2016 by Sokol1

[Lfox]

Carrier ops would get my money. Another eastern theatre (far east excepted of course) would not get much enthusiasm from me.

 

Cheers,

   Lfox

[TWC_Ace]

Guys,

 

We're not doing BOB. If you want that just play CLOD.

 

Jason

Then again, from salesman point of view western theatres would bring some more players and cash Im 100% sure...but there is always but..hehe

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not necessarily true - Oleg Maddox said the best sellers were Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters, while Aces Expansion sold the worst.

[SharkBait]

Why?  Basically every combat sim of the past decade has been BoB or Eastern Front.  The only thing that accomplishes is completely taking the USAAC out of the equation.  We've got plenty of 109Es, Hurricanes, Spitfires and IL-2s. 

 

If late 43 or 1944 isn't desirable enough over France or Germany, why not Italy?  North Africa?  Maybe a fully featured Far East with fighters, dive and torpedo bombers.  Something different with some P-38s, 47s, and other aircraft still stuck in the last couple generations of flight sims would be great.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The New Guinea campaign would be outstanding.

 

RAAF, RNZAF, and USAAF vs. primarily the IJAAC and to a (much) lesser extent the IJN.  And both sides fighting their biggest enemy, New Guinea itself.

 

So many iconic aircraft on both sides.  And any excuse to have the Ki 61 is good enough for me.

 

 

It would be epic.

Edited May 23, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[Pharoah]

We really need to move away from the Eastern Front (no offense to our comrades in the East) - just for a bit of variety. Doing any one of the large battles that occurred on the EF would just be more of the same (roughly same equipment, maps, etc). Moving to the Med/PTO would breathe new life into BOS IL2 (actually...we can't keep calling it BOS...it should be IL2). It doesn't mean you can't come back to do more EF battles.

[wtornado]

The New Guinea campaign would be outstanding.

 

RAAF, RNZAF, and USAAF vs. primarily the IJAAC and to a (much) lesser extent the IJN.  And both sides fighting their biggest enemy, New Guinea itself.

 

So many iconic aircraft on both sides.  And any excuse to have the Ki 61 is good enough for me.

 

 

It would be epic.

Silly goose no one flew Japanese planes in the old IL-2 they caught fire after a few bursts of fire

due to no armor or would run out of fuel due to the lack of self-seal tanks and never make it back

to the carrier or base,

 

 

 

I liked the KI-61 it was nice with a good skin.

Edited May 23, 2016 by WTornado

[Gambit21]

So, with that said we have narrowed it down to Med or PTO. Thank goodness..............

 

 

JK

 

Hehe

 

From my point of view, after BoM I'm done paying for Eastern Front stuff until I see plans to do something else.

When I see those plans, I'll happily purchase "Battle of Kursk" or whatever to help it happen, so long as that's the game plan.

 

This isn't coming from a petulant space, simply a pragmatic one.

My stick time is severely limited, and my desire to boot up and fly isn't as overpowering as it once was - especially with multiplayer in it's current state.

It's going to take something different and closer to my heart to motivate me to devote chunks of my limited free time and cash to a fight sim these days.

 

That said I'm glad this team exists, I'm glad they've doing what they've been doing, because nobody else is. Eastern Front or not, it's WWII and

I'm grateful for IL2's continued existence and development. I could type profuse "thank you's" all day because at times it has to seem like thankless work.

 

However - time to go tot the Pacific.

The famous and much vaunted Warrant Officer Yamaha Kawasaki is itching for a fight.

 

Edit - also then I'll get back to building hand crafted campaigns for your flying pleasure like back in the day.

I can't get myself to put the time in learning the editor for Eastern Front.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Gambit21

[Pharoah]

What would REALLY be awesome would be if they developed the English channel ie. SE England, Western France up to the Norway, etc. Imagine the type of missions you could do ie. exactly what they did back in WW2 ie.

 

- rhubarb missions (fighter sweeps in low weather)

- fighter sweeps (Spitfire IXs, p47s, P38s)

- FB sweeps (p27s, Typhoons)

- medium bombing (B25s, A20s)

- heavy bombing

- escort missions

- armed recce

- anti shipping (B25, Mosquito, Beaufighter, A20, etc)

- night bombing (H111s, JU88s, Halifaxs, Lancs)

 

- you could use the same maps but then change the timeline to pre/post invasion (June 1944) with just updated aircraft OR you could go back in time and just update the a/c for a BoB scenario.

 

You can pretty much get all of that from a map of France and SE England (kinda like BoB but mid war). Why do you think CloD is still quite popular? I reckon if they built that, you'd get quite a few CloD players to migrate. You can't ignore the WTO.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Definitely a cool theatre but commercially speaking it would face competition from Cliffs of Dover and also from DCS:WW2 which will present a Western Front 1944-1945 scenario over Normandy.

 

I'm for Kuban or Kursk and I have a strong feeling we will see either of those next, but for those who want a US/Commonwealth theatre I'd recommend dreaming within the Far East, Pacific or North Africa. Anything else seems far fetched.

[Gambit21]

I used to enjoy the Kursk map in the old sim - built quite a few CoOp missions for that one.

I have no idea when a fully realized WWII map with planes (B17's, fighters, transports etc) and missions, campaigns will manifest in DCS, but I

think I'll be watching Avengers 8 before that happens.

[ShamrockOneFive]

More eastern front, a viable Pacific scenario (New Guinea for example) or something either in Western Europe in the 43/44 or North Africa in the 42/43 range would all be spectacular and offer the kinds of variety of gameplay that I think this series needs to continue with.

 

Most of what you guys have suggested would be great.

 

I'm just glad we're not going for Battle of Britain. It's a pivotal battle but not one I need to fly over again.

[Pharoah]

Definitely a cool theatre but commercially speaking it would face competition from Cliffs of Dover and also from DCS:WW2 which will present a Western Front 1944-1945 scenario over Normandy.

 

I'm for Kuban or Kursk and I have a strong feeling we will see either of those next, but for those who want a US/Commonwealth theatre I'd recommend dreaming within the Far East, Pacific or North Africa. Anything else seems far fetched.

 

I reckon, in the time it takes a DCS developer to develop an a/c, the 1C devs can knock out a whole range of them. Not just that though, but the DCS environment is just...well...horrible when it comes to explosions, etc. Would you also think CloD would be a competitor? now?

 

the beauty of a channel map is that you already have a range of a/c already developed for the Luftwaffe whereas the PTO would require starting from scratch for everything except the P40 (depending on where in the PTO they were looking to replicate).

 

I'm just saying....a lot of $$ comes from western nations (USA, UK, Aust) and to tap that market properly, I reckon you need to have something that not only interests them but also has some sort of emotional attachment eg. US/JPN with the PTO or ETO (for US), Aussies with New Guinea or N/Africa, etc just the same as Russians have with the Eastern Front, etc. (for the record, this has nothing to do with ideology). Every business wants a cash cow that can be used to top up the bank a/c to allow you to take a few more calculated risks (eg. MTO, PTO, Africa, etc). Eg. if they developed the B17 or B24 as a premium product, I wonder how many folks would actually purchase it (I certainly would).

[TWC_Ace]

Dont tell me you dont want to fly Mustangs, P47s, Doras and ME262s, in this engine 

 

I would pay for it right now...

Edited May 24, 2016 by blackram

[Pharoah]

Dont tell me you dont want to fly Mustangs, P47s, Doras and ME262s, in this engine 

 

I would pay for it right now...

 

No, give me a Hawker Tempest and I'll pay you handsomely in return

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I can't say they tempt me as much as a P-39 or the MiG-3 for example. Having a major strategic ground offensive to go with the air activity is important to me as well, so the cross-Channel stuff falls short in that aspect (plus the flight times can be off-putting). Activities like taking off from Krasnodar, intercepting some Junkers then landing at Gelendzhik because the infantry has just captured it, then taking-off again in half an hour to strafe enemy anti-tank positions 4km away from your airbase and so on, those I like the most.

 

From the Western front I think the most exciting aircraft and scenario is the 2 TAF operations in 1944/1945, with Tempests and Spitfires, but again I still prefer the major Soviet offensives.

[unreasonable]

The Soviet Invasion of Manchuria must be more likely.

 

Not only would it introduce new late war plane types, at least on the Soviet side, but it would continue the Russian patriotic education theme. 

[1Sascha]

Definitely a cool theatre but commercially speaking it would face competition from Cliffs of Dover and also from DCS:WW2 which will present a Western Front 1944-1945 scenario over Normandy.

 

 

 

LOL.. CoD is/was buggy as hell and not a very good *game* overall. People are still getting mad when they hear that title, especially the more casual flyers who expected an IL-2 2.0 with a BoB scenario. I mean: I own it and I can't be bothered to give it another try with the Fusion patch.. that's how much this title disappointed me.

 

And DCS WW2? That thing is becoming the Duke Nukem Forever of flight-sims, isn't it? At the rate they're producing planes, we should probably buy all their modules to pass them on to our kids, who'd be able to fly a completed DCS:WW2 at some point in the distant future. Besides: $45 per *plane* pretty much excludes a lot of potential buyers from the party. I love DCS' level of realism - I own the Dora-9 and I adore how they've modeled it - but their pricing scheme is a bit weird.

 

 

 

The lack of proper ground action in CloD BoB is one the biggest complain of "ground ponders" gamers against this (broken) game scenery choice...

 

Easy fix: Include the prelude to the BoB ("Kanalkampf") and have fun with anti-shipping strikes over the channel.

 

But hey: I can totally understand why this team wants to avoid the BoB (at least for now). Mediterranean/N-Africa theater would be pretty sweet - especially since quite a few of the planes needed are already modeled. They'd need to do a Spit II or V, a Hurri IIc, a Beaufighter and some bigger British bomber and they'd be nearly ready to go. P-40 is in game as is the E-7, two F-series and the G-2 109.

 

PAC? Meh.. never been my favorite. The Japanese had some sweet planes, for sure, but somehow PAC never did it for me. Even though I still have my version of "Aces of the Pacific" on 5.25'' floppy discs lying around here on the shelf...

 

S.

Edited May 24, 2016 by 1Sascha

[Gambit21]

Dont tell me you dont want to fly Mustangs, P47s, Doras and ME262s, in this engine 

 

I would pay for it right now...

Not without the ability to represent large bomber boxes, at least on par with EAW if not better, no.

[TWC_Ace]

Not without the ability to represent large bomber boxes, at least on par with EAW if not better, no.

Common sense is your friend..if we want all of those we also want B17s, B24s, etc...

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Silly goose no one flew Japanese planes in the old IL-2 they caught fire after a few bursts of fire

due to no armor or would run out of fuel due to the lack of self-seal tanks and never make it back

to the carrier or base,

 

 

 

I liked the KI-61 it was nice with a good skin.

Well, ekhem, nobody said old Il-2 was accurate. In fact it was so inaccurate across the board that most didnt really care for fighting realism. I guess thats why its so often brought up as a symbol of good simulation. And nostalgia. 

 

The New Guinea campaign would be outstanding.

 

It would be epic.

I could write up a proposition for it and place in suggestion section. Just not sure if that would be on time, guess one would have to ask again BlackSix if decision was made yet or there is still a time for us.

 

And yep, any reason to bring Tony is a good reason.