How do you land without spinning down the runway?

[smink1701]

Would love to know why some planes like the Lagg3 spin halfway down the runway after landing.  Any tips?

[Willy__]

Keep rpm up

[Dakpilot]

There are lots of threads on this subject with a lot of good tips, due to unlockable tailwheel it is one of the harder aircraft to land nicely, historically as well

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20817-bouncing-thr-lagg3/

 

Have a search about for lots more info 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Lock tailwheel wherever possible, MiG and I-16 have steerable tailwheels.

The Bombers don't have tailwheel locks, but are easily kept in check using differential brakes only. 

With the P-40, La-5, LaGG-3 and Bf110 there is really only training. Remember to keep landing speeds low, react quickly to even the slightest tail movements with brakes but keep the rudder as centered as possible, keep the stick fully backwards once on the Ground, no throttle. 

You simply have to "feel" what the aircraft does, wether it is about to yaw left or right and counteract quickly, but don't overcook it or you will go opposite direction. 

[Trooper117]

Would love to know why some planes like the Lagg3 spin halfway down the runway after landing.  Any tips?

 

 

make sure your wheels are down!    (sorry, couldn't resist)

[wtornado]

Retracting flaps after touchdown helps me, then as said above, keep rpm high. I also try to just get to taxi speed rather than actually stopping on the runway, give yourself a breathe, then come to a stop.

 

Disclaimer: I still normally loop at the end in the LaGG3!

Ya there is not much you can do except fly German if you want to not ground loop.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I've flow the LaGG only once in this game to see how bad the landing was....maybe I was lucky but I made it down ok without looping

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdSoSrs7Xs

Edited May 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[smink1701]

Nice landing brother!

[seafireliv]

I hardly ever loop when landing now, maybe it`s cos I use the brake a lot on landing. I also use a lot of rudder. Still have a problem not tipping my nose over though...

Edited May 11, 2016 by seafireliv

[busdriver]

Would love to know why some planes like the Lagg3 spin halfway down the runway after landing.  Any tips?

Imagine the ground track of your main gear rolling on down the runway as the rails of a railroad track. Your task to prevent a ground loop, is to keep your tail wheel between the "rails." Also understand and appreciate that the center of gravity of your airplane is somewhere aft of the main gear. I suspect but am uncertain the LaGG 3's CG is pretty far aft (relatively speaking). This is an essential concept to grasp for tail wheel pilots. Once the tail wheel is allowed outside of the main gear tracks, inertia will allow the CG (and the farther aft tail wheel) to swap ends with the main gear as it tries to travel in a straight line (down the runway), any braking at this point will aggravate the ground loop. If you catch it early enough, release any brake pressure, briefly "goose" the power and apply more rudder pressure in the direction the tail is swinging to allow you to get the tail wheel back between the main gear tracks. Tail wheel pilots in the States use the expression "happy feet" to describe the rapid footwork required to keep from ground looping. You may find the slower you get in a LaGG you may have more rudder pressure on one side but you're not simply holding constant (x amount) of rudder deflection, rather you're  doing the happy feet dance in small amounts either side of that extra boot full of rudder. Oh, and also remember to use "aileron into the wind" crosswind corrections.

 

Cheers

[Guest deleted@50488]

Landing with the gear up also helps...

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The ground loop is a very useful 'technique' to use on busy runways. Got six aircraft on their last drop of fuel returning from a mission? No problem! Hit the ground, enter a ground loop and you'll have stopped within 50m, then just clear the runway and you're good to go.

[Dakpilot]

"Taxiing a taildragger requires the same crosswind input on the ground as any aircraft – turn the yoke or stick into a headwind and away from a tailwind. The only difference is that consequences of incorrect inputs are more likely to be noticeable in the tailwheel because of its tendency to want to rotate around its center of gravity – resulting in a dramatic phenomenon called a ground loop. The reason this happens is because the CG is aft of the main gear – in tricycle airplanes it’s forward. The stick/yoke should be full aft to maximize the weight and controllability of the tailwheel, unless there is a strong tailwind in which case it should be neutral.

To add to the challenge on the ground, the nose is so high on many taildraggers that you can’t see forward unless you make a slalom course on the taxiway and look out the side window. Fortunately for me, most of my tailwheel time is in a Cessna 170, which has excellent forward visibility on the ground. Regardless of the type of taildragger, the key is to continually make small corrections and not allow the airplane to veer even inches away from its intended path.

The takeoff phase in a tailwheel really teaches left turning tendencies. Because of the increased angle of the fuselage, P-factor (caused by differential angles of the ascending and descending propeller blades) is much more noticeable than in a tricycle aircraft. As the aircraft picks up speed, the aircraft will yaw to the left and the rudder dance begins. Quick, small, timely corrections are needed to keep the aircraft on the centerline. Overcorrection will lead to loss of control. Only experience and intense focus will determine the correct amount.

The tailwheel is then lifted off the ground by pushing the yoke/stick forward. If gyroscopic precession was a mystery before, it will now become clear as day VFR. As forces are applied essentially at the top of the spinning propeller, the resulting 90-degree force makes the aircraft want to veer to the left. So expect to apply quite a bit of right rudder to keep the airplane going down the centerline of the runway – but then again, not too much!

Once in the air, the taildragger flies just like any other aircraft. But get ready to dance on the rudder pedals again on short final. The rudder of a tailwheel aircraft coming in to land should be moving like the wagging tail of a happy dog. A straight and stable the approach increases the chances of a perfect landing.

Now to the touchdown. I’ll never forget my first few landings in my 170. Ironically, they happened at the airport in Peoria, Ill. – PIA. I called them kangaroo landings for a reason. I didn’t think an airplane could bounce like that. We were working on wheel landings – the two main wheels touch first and the tailwheel is held off until the speed is bled off on the runway. These types of landings require forward pressure on the yoke and power to idle immediately after the touchdown to prevent a bounce.

This technique was very counterintuitive for me. I kept relaxing the pressure on the yoke once I touched down. As the tailwheel descended to the ground the angle of attack of the wings increased and since the wings weren’t stalled the plane responded by taking off again. The mains hit, then the tail and we continued like a bucking bronco down the runway. It was quite a humbling experience and I applied full power to get away from the ground and save my plane.

The same thing happened several times. It just didn’t feel right to push the yoke forward. I felt that the propeller could hit the ground. But eventually I got it. I learned to love wheel landings and was eventually able to kiss the ground with the mains and slowly lower the tail.

With a three–point landing, the targeted approach speed and the flare need to be right on the money. The wings must be stalled at the touch down and as soon as the wheels touch, power goes to idle and the stick/yoke in the far aft position. Otherwise – kangaroo. The kangaroo can be saved with some power and holding the airplane off the ground until it reaches the appropriate attitude, but a better solution is an immediate go around.

And with the airplane on the ground, the rudder dance continues until the airplane comes to a complete stop.

These techniques have so far prevented me from having the dreaded experience of ground looping. There is much debate about what’s best in a crosswind situation – wheel landing or three-point. I always did wheel landings and managed to get the 170 down safely with as much as a 25 knot, 90-degree crosswind. But some argue that the three-point approach is better since you touch down with less speed. I say, if you get yourself into a tough crosswind situation, do whatever you’re most comfortable doing. And, whether you have strong winds or calm air, keep controlling the airplane until the mixture is pulled and the propeller is stopped."

 

From: http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/flying-time/wag-tailwheel

 

These realworld concepts from Cessna 170 are still relevant, one thing I remember from my old flying instructor was very important, the principle of being in control and being proactive on the rudders, if you react to a bit of yaw it is too late, you need to be already moving the rudders and reacting to your own input rather than the aircraft... being 'ahead' of the aircraft

 

I like Busdriver's 'happy feet' description and 'rudder dance' , I was always told to 'fly the aircraft don't let it fly you' the rudders have a delayed reaction so if you only react to what you feel (or see in the sim) you always will be behind the aircraft

 

One of his very non PC comments was to treat an aircraft like a woman, 'be gentle but firm and always in control, always be the boss', advice that did not actually translate very well to women  but very important for flying, a (comparatively) modern Cessna 170 is different to a 1000+hp fighter but the principles are even more valid.

 

It is hard to describe, but almost as soon as you give rudder input in one direction due to the delay, you need to start countering that input with opposite rudder to check it, almost before the  rudder has had any effect

 

+1 for Busdrivers post

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited May 11, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I've flow the LaGG only once in this game to see how bad the landing was....maybe I was lucky but I made it down ok without looping

Yeah mate, nice landing. Funny enough you had no problem doing exactly what you have been told a hundred times before, you even look for 20% power after touch down what isn't need at all in 109 to land properly. Yeah, first time, and yeah you "did nothing" to land perfectly and make a video "showing your mastery"  .

 

S!

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Yeah mate, nice landing. Funny enough you had no problem doing exactly what you have been told a hundred times before, you even look for 20% power after touch down what isn't need at all in 109 to land properly. Yeah, first time, and yeah you "did nothing" to land perfectly and make a video "showing your mastery"  .

 

S!

 

Don't be silly

 

I used 20% power because someone else on this forum said to do that. I have no interest in flying the LaGG or Yak...I have flown the yak a bit but that was the first time I flew the LaGG.

 

I just did my research first....isn't that what you should do?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Don't be silly

 

I used 20% power because someone else on this forum said to do that. I have no interest in flying the LaGG or Yak...I have flown the yak a bit but that was the first time I flew the LaGG.

 

I just did my research first....isn't that what you should do?

Of course you did, that's fine. But coming to say Lagg-3 works flawlessly after doing what others found before to work isn't "doing nothing at all" . I usually have no problems landing or taxiing but I have a bunch squadmates some newbies and some coming from old simulators and they do have problems, should I say everything is perfect and nothing happens at all because I can do it myself? That's my point.

 

S!

[Elem]

Oh come on Emil, admit to the class, you are pretty skilled at IL2 simming in various aircraft (even if not a LaGG pilot); how dare you provide evidence it is possible to land without looping ;-)

 

Bizarrely I gave the ju88 a go recently because I'd heard it was a nightmare to take-off and land, but managed both perfectly! That WAS fluke as I can certainly still balls-up a landing in a 109 even in still conditions :-D

I'd love to know what you did to T/O in the Ju-88. I have been trying for weeks without success.

[TP_Silk]

Elem - try advancing the throttle smoothly but relatively quickly to full power and then control the swing with taps on the brakes. With practice you'll find that even if you use keyboard brakes like I do, there is time to advance the throttle to full and still cover the braking buttons before the swing starts. Holding the stick back to keep the tail wheel firmly planted during the first phase of acceleration seems to help as well.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'd love to know what you did to T/O in the Ju-88. I have been trying for weeks without success.

 Use brakes not rudder to make the early corrections 

[Elem]

Elem - try advancing the throttle smoothly but relatively quickly to full power and then control the swing with taps on the brakes. With practice you'll find that even if you use keyboard brakes like I do, there is time to advance the throttle to full and still cover the braking buttons before the swing starts. Holding the stick back to keep the tail wheel firmly planted during the first phase of acceleration seems to help as well.

Thank you Silk and Emil. I do have rudder pedals but I prefer wheel brakes mapped to my J/S, but I had both brakes on one button. I remapped them to get independent L & R brakes and followed your advice. Voila! Perfect short field T/O & L/D. It's a bit of a dance with the fingers rather than feet but it was really quite easy.

[seafireliv]

Thank you Silk and Emil. I do have rudder pedals but I prefer wheel brakes mapped to my J/S, but I had both brakes on one button. I remapped them to get independent L & R brakes and followed your advice. Voila! Perfect short field T/O & L/D. It's a bit of a dance with the fingers rather than feet but it was really quite easy.

I also map the brakes to one button on my joystick. I notice some aircraft have it this way too.

 

Ironically, I spun out on landing with the LA5 today.

Edited May 12, 2016 by seafireliv