german fighters flight models

[muff1n]

by all means this isn't a fw190 thread or other german/russian bias thread, I just wanna know if the german flight models are correctly modeled? can any ww2 veteran confirm?

I play single player from time to time, don't have the guts to join mp as I don't think I'm so good, but what I've noticed that the FW190 is a flying brick (like it doesn't have enough horse power) and the BF109 f4 feels like glued to the sky (with bf109 it's like playing an arcade mode, I can do such things with it, it's like unbelievable)

 

just want your honest opinions, don't start any bias thread pls

 

btw to the devs, can you please give us an option to close the annoying startup popup after we hit play (arma 3 has a perfect launcher options)

 

best and thx,

M.

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

can any ww2 veteran confirm?

 

 

-snip-

 

I lol'd.

 

The flight models are fine, need some tweaking here and there, but are otherwise perfectly acceptable - VVS and Luftwaffe alike.

[Gump]

... I just wanna know if the german flight models are correctly modeled? can any ww2 veteran confirm?

...

 

best and thx,

M.

.

it is a bit difficult to find genuine FW/BF WWII pilots these days, as they would be about 90yrs old. what we have, in that regard, are the written historical pilot accounts and the modern-ish film documentary interviews. all we can do is compare what we experience (in game) to what we can glean from those sources.

.

we also have the aeronautical engineering types that can analyze the historical plane construction and test data and form conclusions that way.. these also doesn't seem to be as easy as it sounds...if you've read the FM threads, you know that it is not so easy, sometimes, to interpret such data.

.

edit: for the record, i do not think the current FW190 compares with the historical accounts. the current game FM has some serious problems. it flies, yes, and anything can get a 'kill' on occaision, but it does not work well at all, imho.

...the bf109f was an excellent plane IRL, according to all the historical accounts ive read/heard. i think the in-game usage of pitch trim might exaggerate some capabilities, but that is not an FM issue. disclaimer:AFAIK

Edited May 2, 2016 by Gump

[ACG_pezman]

I also don't think the FW-190 is a brick.  It requires much more finesse and copious amounts of rudder, but it can still kick ass.

 

At speed it's still the tightest turning, quickest rolling, and the second best diver in the game (right behind the P-40).  It climbs better at low and high altitude than it use too but lags behind in mid-range altitude.  Don't expect to out-climb anything in it, maybe a LaGG, P-40, and I-16, but not well enough to use it as an advantage.  Running when your in trouble is all you can do, attempting to turn fight can be done but it requires a better pilot than I.

[1./ZG1_ElHadji]

I lol'd.

 

 Why? Having WWII veterans trying the planes isn't that far fetched to be honest. Erich Brunotte was used as a "consultant" for the DCS Fw 190 D-9 and provided input on the 109 K-4 as well so it would actually make sense to do the same with the Il-2 planes. At least it would end the never ending FM debates.

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Somebody here has a full Bf-109 cockpit in their living room and invited a Bf-109 pilot to give Il-2 a go. If I remember the results correctly, the pilot said it was very well-modelled overall, with the only fault being an excess of yaw-induced rolling. I could be wrong though, it would be nice if the person in question could come forth.

 

On the Soviet aircraft, they were tested by Stalingrad veteran (434 IAP), ace, and later a test pilot and aeronautics scholar, Hero of the Soviet Union, General Stepan Anastasovich Mikoyan, who incidentally lives in Volgograd now. Mikoyan fought with 434 IAP, stayed when it was reformed into 32 GIAP and later transferred to 12 GIAP-PVO.

 

You can read Mikoyan's book here about the war, his life and work in aviation. http://www.amazon.com/Stepan-Anastasovich-Mikoyan-An-Autobiography/dp/1853109169/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

If you were wondering about the name, Mikoyan is in fact the son of Anastas Mikoyan (wartime Minister of Foreign Trade, a Bolshevik ever since the revolution and the very single Soviet politician who worked at a high level in all governments from the Lenin to Brezhnev administrations), and nephew of aircraft designer Artyom Mikoyan who designed nearly all MiG aircraft until the MiG-25 and took part in the design of multiple Polikarpov designs.

[Stig]

 . At least it would end the never ending FM debates.

 

 

 

I very much doubt that. FM debates seem to be a hobby in itself. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

At least it would end the never ending FM debates.

-snip-

 

Is that right? How has that worked out for both of the DCS modules you've mentioned?

 

If you watched that interview end-to-end you'd see that Erich didn't say much of deep technical value and actually scoffed at quite a few of their "technical" questions - he didn't learn to fly by stringently reading gauges, religiously following turn/climb charts, etc.

[muff1n]

...so if the bf109 was so really easy to fly, then the russian pilots must have had some bad time during that era, I don't really envy them...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

...so if the bf109 was so really easy to fly, then the russian pilots must have had some bad time during that era, I don't really envy them...

 

So they did... 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

On the Soviet aircraft, they were tested by Stalingrad veteran (434 IAP), ace, and later a test pilot and aeronautics scholar, Hero of the Soviet Union, General Stepan Anastasovich Mikoyan, who incidentally lives in Volgograd now. Mikoyan fought with 434 IAP, stayed when it was reformed into 32 GIAP and later transferred to 12 GIAP-PVO.   You can read Mikoyan's book here about the war, his life and work in aviation. http://www.amazon.co...uct_top?ie=UTF8   If you were wondering about the name, Mikoyan is in fact the son of Anastas Mikoyan (wartime Minister of Foreign Trade, a Bolshevik ever since the revolution and the very single Soviet politician who worked at a high level in all governments from the Lenin to Brezhnev administrations), and nephew of aircraft designer Artyom Mikoyan who designed nearly all MiG aircraft until the MiG-25 and took part in the design of multiple Polikarpov designs.

 

 

Lol, I´m sure this dude´s opinion was extremely unbiased...

Edited July 14, 2016 by SchwarzeDreizehn

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The man is an experienced test pilot with decades of experience and who was rather critical during his career, not a flight sim nerd who complains every time he gets shot down. Honestly I'd take his opinion over most here, particularly when he flew those aircraft extensively.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

 

 

 

who was rather critical during his career,

 

I´m sure you have to be of rather critical nature to rise in the ranks of the soviet union

 

 

 

not a flight sim nerd who complains every time he gets shot down

 

thanks for pointing that out, I thought he was the dude i shot down yesterday and complained afterwards!

 

@G//Rekt 

"I suspect that the passage of so much time would have a bigger impact on a vet's input than anything else"

True

Edited July 14, 2016 by SchwarzeDreizehn

[Irgendjemand]

by all means this isn't a fw190 thread or other german/russian bias thread, I just wanna know if the german flight models are correctly modeled? can any ww2 veteran confirm?

I play single player from time to time, don't have the guts to join mp as I don't think I'm so good, but what I've noticed that the FW190 is a flying brick (like it doesn't have enough horse power) and the BF109 f4 feels like glued to the sky (with bf109 it's like playing an arcade mode, I can do such things with it, it's like unbelievable)

 

just want your honest opinions, don't start any bias thread pls

 

btw to the devs, can you please give us an option to close the annoying startup popup after we hit play (arma 3 has a perfect launcher options)

 

best and thx,

M.

Your feeling the FW fM is wrong must be "only emotion". [edited]

If thats good or bad ... Well, read some reviews, the forums, maybe Amazon reviews and youtube videos. Plenty of opinions. Best not to discuss but build your own opinon and draw your own conclusion. Mine was not to play the game anymore. At least as it stand right now.

Edited July 14, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin
Dev bias acusation. Not permitted at all.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I´m sure you have to be of rather critical nature to rise in the ranks of the soviet union

 

I find it funny when people say the big bad Soviet Union was so this and that, all pilots are liars and rusian biaz everywhere but then take information from Nazi Germany at face value.

It's particularly funny when you consider that for 15 years ('69-'84) the Soviet Air Force was commanded by Pavel Kutakhov, a hot-headed individual who among other things went to a training lecture on orders of the division commander in 1943, heard two pilots whispering something to each other then told the whole unit to go f--- themselves and flew off the next minute. The DOSAAF commander for 9 years ('72-'81) was Aleksandr Pokryshkin who made a long list of people upset ranging from Ibrahim Dzusov (regiment commander of 45 IAP and later division commander of 216 SAD/9 GIAD) to Leonid Brezhnev.

 

But I'm sure these are only delusions and indeed there is nothing to be gained from Soviet pilot's expertise, only video interviews with German pilots count as evidence... right?

[XQ_Lothar29]

I think you get a correct Fm on all aircraft, it is very difficult in this simulator and all, but if it is true that today we have a lot of information available and I think that, in my view, the FW190 in this simulator, lacks some spark..

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

I find it funny when people say the big bad Soviet Union was so this and that, all pilots are liars and rusian biaz everywhere but then take information from Nazi Germany at face value.

It's particularly funny when you consider that for 15 years ('69-'84) the Soviet Air Force was commanded by Pavel Kutakhov, a hot-headed individual who among other things went to a training lecture on orders of the division commander in 1943, heard two pilots whispering something to each other then told the whole unit to go f--- themselves and flew off the next minute. The DOSAAF commander for 9 years ('72-'81) was Aleksandr Pokryshkin who made a long list of people upset ranging from Ibrahim Dzusov (regiment commander of 45 IAP and later division commander of 216 SAD/9 GIAD) to Leonid Brezhnev.

 

But I'm sure these are only delusions and indeed there is nothing to be gained from Soviet pilot's expertise, only video interviews with German pilots count as evidence... right?

Why are you making generalizations? I never said that all Russian pilots are liars. I never said that the Soviet Union was this or that. I never said I take info from Nazi Germany as face value.

You presume that I have a certain view of the Soviet Union. Actually I am pretty sure that they were humans, just like in any other country / time period / govnerment typ and not brain washed ideology zombies as - unfortunately - portrayed in many American movies.

 

On the other hand i also do understand, that if you progressed careerwise in these type of government, you usually weren´t opposed to them to say the lease (counts for at least 90% of the indivduals). You were the one saying his family were bolsheviks of the first minute... It was you saying that. I picked it up.

 

Also, why do you presume I am pro german the entire time? I never said anything on my opinion about German fighter pilots, that rose in ranks during the 3. Reich. I would not trust their judgment either.

 

So instead of going ballistic and saying BUT GERMANY SUCKS TOO, maybe you should just concentrate on what I actually said.

 

Oh yeah and of course a Commander telling squadron to go f*** off is certain proof that the soviet pilots would not be biased in their judgment :D

[LTcommander]

how about asking those pilots that are flying the 109 G4 red 7, The G6 ,the G10, the E7 and a G12 which is a two seater that are restored and sometimes crashed into cornfields in airshows ? i guess they know the behavior of the planes !

[JG13_opcode]

They are priceless antiques and often are damaged and restored airframe. They never run those aircraft at full power.

[LTcommander]

sure but i guess they can tell alot about the feel of the plane at the limits they are reaching

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

If I'm not mistaken sby once contacted Volker Bau (Bf-109 and Fw-190 replica test pilot) to ask him questions about the Bf-109. Don't know about the content though, think it was sth about trim settings.