Question - why is taxiing so difficult?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I've seen some photos of their offices, nothing too impressive in terms of gear: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_464c.html

Edited May 11, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[wtornado]

I've seen some photos of their offices, nothing too impressive in terms of gear: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_464c.html

I like Rise of flight and it does not take much gear to fly it either.

 

All you need is a joystick and a cup of coffee.

 

The Fokker D.VII takes off well too flies straight on take-off no brakes and  a little rudder

you can almost say ''look ma no hands''

[pilotpierre]

neostar, on 12 May 2016 - 03:42, said:

One thing I did notice that convinced me that the flight models are spot on is the swimming one encounters when dirty and applying power.

 

As a layman non-pilot, I'm curious what this is. Not the easiest set of words to Google for an answer.

 

Mort

 

"Dirty" is when flaps and wheels are down. "Swimming" is the porpoise effect when you apply power when the flaps are down.

[Dakpilot]

I think maybe a translation of  "swimming" would be wallowing or mushiness, good technical aviation terms from me 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[sport02]

 

 

It would be interesting to know what the developers use though, and what the system specs of their PCs are. 

 

after their bad engine game from rof , their joystick , now it's their pc , and after pc it will be ... their wife perhaps

Edited May 12, 2016 by sport02

[pilotpierre]

I think maybe a translation of  "swimming" would be wallowing or mushiness, good technical aviation terms from me 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

I agree Dak, much better description

[EAF19_Marsh]

 

One thing I did notice that convinced me that the flight models are spot on is the swimming one encounters when dirty and applying power.

 

When I first got RoF, I sat in  external view of a Camel, blipping the throttle and watching with my jaw open as the aircraft rocked in different dimensions - simply incredible!

 

Something I do notice; my taxing is terrible if I have not touched the game in few weeks so unsurprisingly it is also dependent on being 'dialed-in'.

[wtornado]

 

 

For analytical discussion sake I'll try to breakdown the different issues combined potentially causing the taxiing problems in BoS:

 

1) Planes are unstable with keeping the directional vector and will steer off-course too easily (lack of enough inertia in physics terms)

 

2) Wheelbreaks lack neccessary breaking power what should be expected to have 

 

3) Engine torgue might be slightly overmodelled at least on some of the airplanes

 

4) Terrain friction might be modelled a bit to uneffective

 

I suspect some of these issues could be the root cause of wobblyness in the air experienced some of the pilots (I suspect the issues in inertia modelling with FM)

 

- - -

 

I have a additonal issue with taxiing appering time to time:

5) Sometimes rudder + wheel breaking are unresponsive to the right and the plane won't steer practically but to the left. I've checked with pedals calibration and in the BoS keymapper axis setting and ranges and the controller works perfectly but the sim sometimes refuses to steer a plane to right properly.

 

I wish we could collect the potential causes of the issues and try to find out the root-cause of the problem and get it sorted

 

You hit the nail right on the head.

[SharpeXB]

So I watched that Robert Taylor film again. And realized more of what I was still doing wrong

 

Now taxiing is easy! Watch the film. He does the best job of explaining all this stuff.

 

Don't use the brakes, use the rudder with small bursts of the throttle. Remember in most planes you need a good amount of right rudder just to go straight.

As soon as you start turning in one direction, start correcting the other way, don't get into a cycle of late inputs that makes you wobble out of control.

Use the brakes only sparingly to help the rudder. And I'm only using HOTAS buttons for them, not the toe brakes. Just quick taps on them. Don't lock one side when you turn.

 

Watch the film, watch it again and practice practice practice and it becomes really easy.

[sport02]

anticipate , anticipate .

[mort]

Thanks pilotpierre and Dakpilot, that's close to what I had guessed.

[LLv44_Damixu]

Finally I managed to define potential issues in the sim causing problems to taxiing and thus potentially giving indications to find solutions for deficiencies of the sim.  This I wrote on previous posting on this thread. I'm hoping for to initiate at least intellectual dialog for finding the potential root-causes what the devs could address on future patches.

To me, it seems that most of you don't give any credit nor respect for this effort! Many are creating disinformation to drive their own agenda keeping things as-is.

 

These constant vocal individuals of this IL-2: BoS/BoM community keeps insisting about videos and unfairly blaming you suck at taxiing, instead of contributing some constructive ideas and suggestions on solving the issues this topic.

It is actually relieving, that you don't experience these overwhelming issues on taxiing. This gives hope for everyone else suffering the issue, if and when the root-causes for each of us will be found, we all can taxi like you are now.

 

SharpeXB - You especially are strong with your opinions to write off other simmers issues in taxiing. I appreciate that you have everything sorted and perfectly functioning. We all would like to be there with you. Please, stop bashing the people who are less fortunate and experience genuine issues with their end.

I wish you could be the part of the solution in the future by giving well educated ideas for solving the issues.

 

Cheers to all of my fellow simmers! Keep on rocking and flying!

 

 

 

edit: Yes, I am a real life pilot as a GA pilot to fly different aircrafts and having the experience with many 2-4 seater prop. planes on wheels, with skis, on ice airstrips with wheels, on grassy fields taxiing and of course lots of tarmac taxiing and takeoff and landing but that is not the issue here. I've flown with trainer/combat jet to conducting ACM like outside barrel, Chandelle, Immelmann, etc. over 500-800 km/h speed to have a taste of high speed normally not having in GA piloting.

Edited May 13, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu

[SharpeXB]

There is already a solution for this dilemma:

- Watch the film.

- practice.

 

Repeat the above till you can taxi without problems. Seriously. I just watched it again myself and realized my mistakes and then had the easiest time taxing ever.

 

Another problem we face in the game compared to real pilots is probably most people grab a different plane every time. Real pilots flew the same plane every time for many many hours.

So try that in the sim. Especially in something like the PW Career or the Campaign. Pick a certain plane and fly that exclusively. I discovered that in the RoF Career and became much better at this. All the handling becomes reflexive and you don't even need to think about it.

[LLv44_Damixu]

Still the taxiing is overly difficult way modelled in the game.

 

Taxiing the plane is no more difficult than drivving a car on same terrain.

 

Now taxiing is survival game, only the best and fittest will survive. And don't get me started with ridiculousness of taking-off!

Edited May 13, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu

[sport02]

when I read SharpeXB I am far to think that he bashing people  , no sens .

Edited May 13, 2016 by sport02

[LLv44_Damixu]

There is already a solution for this dilemma:

- Watch the film.

- practice.

 

Repeat the above till you can taxi without problems. Seriously. I just watched it again myself and realized my mistakes and then had the easiest time taxing ever.

 

Another problem we face in the game compared to real pilots is probably most people grab a different plane every time. Real pilots flew the same plane every time for many many hours.

So try that in the sim. Especially in something like the PW Career or the Campaign. Pick a certain plane and fly that exclusively. I discovered that in the RoF Career and became much better at this. All the handling becomes reflexive and you don't even need to think about it.

 

You still don't get it. While I can and I have done measures and practise to master to taxiing and takeoff in this sim, still it is absolutely hugely ridiculously overdone compared to real life counterpart. Not reflecting the actual difficulty to do anything I do in real life with taxiing, taking-off, landing etc.

Please stop commenting on any of the stuff related simulating real life aircraft behaviour because you Sir, don't really have a glue about real life behaviour of the stuff we are talking about.

 

No disrespect intended to you. We all have our areas of expertise and try to live with it.

Edited May 13, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu

[LLv44_Damixu]

The Conclusion: Taxiing, Take-off and Landing is way overly difficult to accomplish in the sim compared to the real life. No question about that.

Now we had this settled: How the devs could tune and fix this to be as real as possible? (Still I refer my prior post on this subject)

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I really still do not find it difficult in the slightest! I found it more hard in real life because i was scared of breaking the thing !!!!

[LLv44_Damixu]

I really still do not find it difficult in the slightest! I found it more hard in real life because i was scared of breaking the thing !!!!

 

I guess this is a good indicator that the taxiing, taking-off, landing is not the same to all of us in terms of difficulty. The question is: What causes the variation of the difficulty from player to player in the sim?

- controllers

- key setting and/or sensitivities on controllers

- certain controller types like with force feedback vs. without FF (I have MS Sidewinder FFB2, CH Pro Pedals, Saitek X52 throttle, Saitek Throttle Quadrant)

- what else?

- . . .

Edited May 13, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu

[LLv44_Damixu]

I really still do not find it difficult in the slightest! I found it more hard in real life because i was scared of breaking the thing !!!!

 

And this contributes to solve issues people having with the sim exactly how?

 

You naysayers are not even considering the possibility the situation with others have way different than yours.

You are making yourself arschlochs by bluntly saying - everything is fine here... move along! (As long as my sim works just fine, I don't care about the others)

Edited May 13, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu

[SharpeXB]

The Conclusion: Taxiing, Take-off and Landing is way overly difficult to accomplish in the sim compared to the real life. No question about that.

 

And you can say this because you are a real life warbird pilot?

[busdriver]

You still don't get it. While I can and I have done measures and practise to master to taxiing and takeoff in this sim, still it is absolutely hugely ridiculously overdone compared to real life counterpart. Not reflecting the actual difficulty to do anything I do in real life with taxiing, taking-off, landing etc.

Please stop commenting on any of the stuff related simulating real life aircraft behaviour because you Sir, don't really have a glue about real life behaviour of the stuff we are talking about.

 

No disrespect intended to you. We all have our areas of expertise and try to live with it.

Slow down there my hero. I think you're looking for an argument from SharpeXB's response to you, when I don't see one. (edit...okay his last response is justified IMO).

 

As a tail wheel pilot yourself, you know that taxiing a tail wheel airplane is infinitely more challenging than tricycle gear airplanes. I have 17,000+ hours in tricycle gear, and humbly, only 50+ in tail wheel, please don't suggest that taxiing a high performance tail wheel airplane is as simple as driving a car. It isn't. SharpeXB is trying to get gamers to watch the training video, and practice. I also agree with his suggestion to practice with one airplane and master it rather than trying every airplane.

Edited May 13, 2016 by busdriver

[LLv44_Damixu]

And you can say this because you are a real life warbird pilot?

And you can oppose everything with credible authority it being flown so many simulations at your basement before? 

[SharpeXB]

And you can oppose everything with credible authority it being flown so many simulations at your basement before?

 

You act as if the 1CGS team has never seen or talked to anyone who's handled these planes...

 

https://youtu.be/_wTZjYGyl-4

 

And watch the taxiing footage at the beginning and see how the rudder is being worked back and forth just to drive the aircraft in a straight line.

[LLv44_Damixu]

Slow down there my hero. I think you're looking for an argument from SharpeXB's response to you, when I don't see one. (edit...okay his last response is justified IMO).

 

As a tail wheel pilot yourself, you know that taxiing a tail wheel airplane is infinitely more challenging than tricycle gear airplanes. I have 17,000+ hours in tricycle gear, and humbly, only 50+ in tail wheel, please don't suggest that taxiing a high performance tail wheel airplane is as simple as driving a car. It isn't. SharpeXB is trying to get gamers to watch the training video, and practice. I also agree with his suggestion to practice with one airplane and master it rather than trying every airplane.

I do appreciate much what you are trying to do here. That's the right way to go forward by training and understanding the ramifications of the actions in the taxiing and taking-off and landing areas what comes to the real aviation. BoS/BoM is not there yet, but by good people of this community we will get there.

[Pharoah]

ok since I'm the OP, I've played a heck of a lot more since I first wrote this post a week or so ago. How have I fared since then? Well, I've practiced a lot more...took my time and took on a lot of the tips from here (thanks to all). End result is, I'm taxiing ok now although its definitely not easy. One wrong move and it all turns to crap, but thats where the practice comes in. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, no one has said it cannot be done.

 

The real discussion is how it does not reflect the reality of ground handling.

 

That is the core of the debate, with a bit of a side bar discussion on how it affects bringing new players into the genre, and most importantly, retaining them.

[seafireliv]

I found the P-40 incredibly squrrelly last night on the Saturday night bombing server, while taxing, more so than the other VVS air craft. I know I haven`t  had the chance to fly it as much as the others but wow. I had to be so careful on the throttle, rudder and brakes to get to the airfield. However, it might have been lag as some have said.

[neofightr2]

As a layman non-pilot, I'm curious what this is. Not the easiest set of words to Google for an answer.

It has to do with the aerodynamics of the stabilizer/rudder and the torque of the engine and propwash. Basically the plane is always in motion side to side as these forces move the plane in many directions combined with rudder input of the pilot.

 

During my experience in the turboprop this swimming effect was most pronounced as I slowed below 100kts and was on final to landing remember the effect is suttle but noticable . You don't see this effect in jets.

[neofightr2]

neostar, on 12 May 2016 - 03:42, said:

One thing I did notice that convinced me that the flight models are spot on is the swimming one encounters when dirty and applying power.

 

As a layman non-pilot, I'm curious what this is. Not the easiest set of words to Google for an answer.

 

Mort

 

"Dirty" is when flaps and wheels are down. "Swimming" is the porpoise effect when you apply power when the flaps are down.

Actually that's not the effect I am describing although the increased lift force from the flaps is there as well. I am talking more of a fishtailing effect as you apply power and the plane responds you can sense the plane oscillating back and forth as a response. It can be very suttle and I am not talking about the obvious rudder input effect.

 

I should have used fishtailing vs. swimming. Everybody tends to use their own slang. Wallowing perhaps but mushiness is not the effect I am talking about. Mushiness refers the slower response of control inputs to the A/C as a result of slower air flow across the control surfaces.

Edited May 15, 2016 by neostar

[sport02]

ok since I'm the OP, I've played a heck of a lot more since I first wrote this post a week or so ago. How have I fared since then? Well, I've practiced a lot more...took my time and took on a lot of the tips from here (thanks to all). End result is, I'm taxiing ok now although its definitely not easy. One wrong move and it all turns to crap, but thats where the practice comes in. 

 

I think the same thing  , it's  a good summary and temperate point of view from the initiator of this thread and as you say we must be careful ,  also it's depend of aircraft more or less , and on this thread if we are honest  we can't contest that real pilots have opposite point of view .

Edited May 16, 2016 by sport02

[SharpeXB]

we can't contest that real pilots have opposite point of view .

All due respect to the real pilots on these threads but none of them afaik have flown any the specific aircraft in this game. The developers however do have access to pilots who are experienced with them. Most notably Vladimir Barsuk linked above.

So unless proved otherwise I'll take 1CGS interpretation of the aircraft behavior as believable.

[sport02]

of course it's a factor to take in consideration , even if there may be a difference between two pilot which know the same plane , we have a recent exemple in sim game with  DCS gazelle helicopter but in beta developpement

also as the planes are more or less difficult , it could be a justifiable reason , otherwise they made all the same and easiest for exemple .

Edited May 16, 2016 by sport02

[Guest deleted@30725]

ok since I'm the OP, I've played a heck of a lot more since I first wrote this post a week or so ago. How have I fared since then? Well, I've practiced a lot more...took my time and took on a lot of the tips from here (thanks to all). End result is, I'm taxiing ok now although its definitely not easy. One wrong move and it all turns to crap, but thats where the practice comes in. 

 

Glad to hear you're getting better. It's time in front of the game is what it is. Unless you are used to playing similar games for a while then being new to this game and learning all these things is hard. People talk about driving a car, but that was hard to begin with too and even when we passed our tests we kept learning and only by doing that thing every day did we get good. 

[Capt_Stubing]

And this contributes to solve issues people having with the sim exactly how?

 

You naysayers are not even considering the possibility the situation with others have way different than yours.

You are making yourself arschlochs by bluntly saying - everything is fine here... move along! (As long as my sim works just fine, I don't care about the others)

This is exactly why I didn't continue responding to this thread again until now.  To anyone who has ever taxied flown a Tail Dragger would instantly see there is an overall problem with ground handling in this sim.  Those that say it's a training issue have no clue.   It's been mentioned before just because you have figured out how to taxi take off and land which is a bit overly complicated in this sim doesn't make it more realistic or accurate for that matter. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

To anyone who has ever taxied flown a Tail Dragger would instantly see there is an overall problem with ground handling in this sim.

 

-snip- 

 

Which is incredibly ironic given the fact that a couple of taildragger pilots have chimed in and mentioned it's pretty close, if not on point, where it stands.

 

Who's wrong..? The taildragger pilot or the other taildragger pilot?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Pilot opinions can differ even about the same aircraft in same conditons. That counts for both historical pilot accounts and claims of modern civil aviation pilots.

 

Wether it is easy to taxi in reality or ingame is not the primary qestion though as expiriences are greatly varying and sometimes perceptions can be faulty. The real question is wether the physical simulation ingame is authentic and - if proveable - mathematicly correct.

 

A good example would be the old 190 FM with the twitchy tailwheel. Regardless of any real claims of the 190 being easy or difficult to handle on ground in reality by a variety of pilots it was obvious that the behaviour represented in the game could not be physically correct. And yet the same side discussions about skill, gear, joystick settings and "I can do fine" were floating around that issue, too, creating only confusion and causing the topic to get off rails.

Edited May 16, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Elem]

Which is incredibly ironic given the fact that a couple of taildragger pilots have chimed in and mentioned it's pretty close, if not on point, where it stands.

 

Who's wrong..? The taildragger pilot or the other taildragger pilot?

As a tail dragger pilot (tail skid as well as wheel) I think it's pretty damn close. Perhaps a little over sensitive, but then I haven't flown any of these warbirds. Civil light A/c designs tend to be built for ease of operation so I would assume are easier than these "heavy's".

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Pilot opinions can differ even about the same aircraft in same conditons. That counts for both historical pilot accounts and claims of modern civil aviation pilots.

 

Wether it is easy to taxi in reality or ingame is not the primary qestion though as expiriences are greatly varying and sometimes perceptions can be faulty. The real question is wether the physical simulation ingame is authentic and - if proveable - mathematicly correct.

 

A good example would be the old 190 FM with the twitchy tailwheel. Regardless of any real claims of the 190 being easy or difficult to handle on ground in reality by a variety of pilots it was obvious that the behaviour represented in the game could not be physically correct. And yet the same side discussions about skill, gear, joystick settings and "I can do fine" were floating around that issue, too, creating only confusion and causing the topic to get off rails.

 

I'm not contesting anything you've written nor am I taking a stance on the rightness/wrongness of what's modeled but I am contesting these "absolute" answers: Pilot A said "X" behaves like "Y" so "X" is wrong because Pilot A said so.

 

The "argument from authority" is a formal fallacy for the exact reason you stated: opinions differ even from qualified sources.

[Capt_Stubing]

As a tail dragger pilot (tail skid as well as wheel) I think it's pretty damn close. Perhaps a little over sensitive, but then I haven't flown any of these warbirds. Civil light A/c designs tend to be built for ease of operation so I would assume are easier than these "heavy's".

Okay I will bite... Why would "Heavy's" be that much different?  If anything wouldn't they have bigger brakes etc.?  And when you  mean pretty damn close...  In what regard?  If you're talking about using the same technique in RL vs what you have to do in RL then yes it's pretty good however where I think you and I differ is when it comes to how effective differential braking works as it does in RL.  I can easily stop a low speed ground loop with braking in RL but not in this sim.  With very little power you can get the FW to ground loop multiple times even with full brakes and opposite rudder.  In my neck of the woods we have one of the largest WWII airshows in the nation. Well over 50 warbirds and not once have I seen a ground loop while they taxi.  Just sit on one of the online servers  and watch out many people ground loop while taxiing.  If you tell me it's a training issue it's not given I have been trained in RL.   Out of curiosity  what do you use for brakes and rudders?