Question - why is taxiing so difficult?

[SharpeXB]

And now we face the spectre of breaking the undercarriage as well.

In the real world it would be impossible, suicidal and prohibited behavior to just take off straight from the parking area over unprepared ground in the way players do online. So anything the Devs do to curb this behaviour is a welcome improvement.

instead of watching random videos and use them as a base for debate.

"Random"? You mean real training for real pilots in WWII is "random"?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's a video for general information about taxiing, nothing to do with the Fw-190. Don't abuse it for the purpose of your pretendet argumentation.

[SharpeXB]

It's a video for general information about taxiing, nothing to do with the Fw-190. Don't abuse it for the purpose of your pretendet argumentation.

The film is for primary flight training so any pilot graduating to handling fighters would already have passed this stage. The operating handbooks for these fighters, I'm sure, don't contain such basic information as the pilot would already have been trained in it. The manuals that DCS provides I expect are quite accurate examples. The 190 Dora manual section on taxiing only instructs you on things that are specific to the aircraft, like engine setting and how to unlock the tail wheel. It's not meant as instruction in the nuances of handling or behaviour at airfields.

And the basics covered in the film apply to all tail wheel aircraft, that much should be obvious. And when applied in the game that instruction works very well. That's all which really matters. This is a game. It's not a professional grade FAA certified trainer for an Fw 190 A3

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Still rejects to get facts straight. A perfect exampel of why we need locked FM discussions...

 

PS: I will not continuing this senselss back and forth with you. Read the manual or not, it's up to you. Just dont argue against sth you dont understand.

[JtD]

In the real world it would be impossible, suicidal and prohibited behavior to just take off straight from the parking area over unprepared ground in the way players do online.

Hardly unusual on WW2 airstrips. Park in a box at the forest's edge, apply power & take off straight ahead from there in a scramble, accross the acre that was used as an air field.

There are videos showing aircraft taxiing / taking off / landing over ground one wouldn't want to drive a bike on.

Edited May 19, 2016 by JtD

[SharpeXB]

Hardly unusual on WW2 airstrips. Park in a box at the forest's edge, apply power & take off straight ahead from there in a scramble, accross the acre that was used as an air field.

There are videos showing aircraft taxiing / taking off / landing over ground one wouldn't want to drive a bike on.

If a real pilot blasted across an airfield like gamers here do online they'd be court martialed and that would be the end of their career.

I'm sure you've read all the same books I have so we don't need to regale all the accounts of pilots who were killed or seriously injured on takeoff by blown tires or patches of water on the runway.

Yes these aircraft operated from open fields too but that ground was certainly prepared for it. And taking off over snow covered ground was almost certainly impossible.

[JtD]

If a real pilot blasted across an airfield like gamers here do online they'd be court martialed and that would be the end of their career.

Depends on which you mean, the ones you described and I am referring to, would not have been court martialled.

Yes these aircraft operated from open fields too but that ground was certainly prepared for it.

You're looking at the wrong videos on youtube.

And taking off over snow covered ground was almost certainly impossible.

I've seen aircraft operating from unprepared snow 3km deep.

[Trooper117]

lol... you might want to change that...

[seafireliv]

Depends on which you mean, the ones you described and I am referring to, would not have been court martialled.

You're looking at the wrong videos on youtube.

I've seen aircraft operating from unprepared snow 3km deep.

3km deep? That must be some kind of incredible aircraft.

[JtD]

Il-14, mostly.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

[seafireliv]

Il-14, mostly.

Perhaps you mean 3 cm deep snow?

[SharpeXB]

Depends on which you mean, the ones you described and I am referring to, would not have been court martialled

This one would be!

https://youtu.be/JCu_cMaugi8

 

Everyone I see bolt across the open ground makes no attempt to turn their plane away from the field, or to avoid anything. Of course that's because they're noobs and lack the skill to even make a simple turn. They just blast straight ahead from the parking. Even when the runway is right in front of them. So it's not a "scramble" of any sort. It's just pure noobish behaviour.

Edited May 19, 2016 by SharpeXB

[JtD]

I usually write what I mean. In this case - 3km, as in 30hm, 3000m or 300000cm. 10000feet, if you like. Or two miles. Not that hard to get, is it?

[SharpeXB]

I've seen aircraft operating from unprepared snow 3km deep.

What type of aircraft? Not the ones in this game I'm sure. And if you're talking about packed snow on the polar ice cap that's not the same thing as what we have here. Edited May 19, 2016 by SharpeXB

[JtD]

Right, it's a **** load harder there.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Probably the Il-14s Aeroflot operated over the North and South poles.

 

To the core of this discussion though, I think both sides are blowing the problems out of proportion. Taxiing is not nearly overcomplicated, and 'off-roaders' are not a major issue or hazard. Yeah, you often see an aircraft or two every now and then, sometimes they will crash into you but so what? Even in controlled environments like the weekend coop missions or group events there are collisions on the ground, the only difference is that there I know it was Billy on the LaGG-3 with number 07 on the fuselage whereas on a public server I am left guessing. Either way these things happens and there is no reason to get so worked up. I can only remember crashing into somebody on the ramp once on Wings of Liberty actually, compared to some three or four times on FNBF. It's no biggie

[Aap]

I've seen aircraft operating from unprepared snow 3km deep.

Way to lose all credibility. By the way, deepest SNOW ever recorded is 11,5 m.

[JtD]

I'm not worked up, it's just strange to see statement over statement about what the planes or pilots could not do, didn't do, wouldn't do, where I've seen pretty much everything in real life. Even idiots happen there occasionally as well.

 

Edit: All the ice in Antarctic is just compressed snow. Feel free to argue semantics.

Edited May 19, 2016 by JtD

[SharpeXB]

I'm not worked up, it's just strange to see statement over statement about what the planes or pilots could not do, didn't do, wouldn't do, where I've seen pretty much everything in real life.

Ever seen a 4,400 kg tail-wheel aircraft loaded with fuel and bombs take off traveling 170 kph on open ground covered with 60cm of unpacked snow?

Edited May 19, 2016 by SharpeXB

[JtD]

Not, just open ground covered with 30cm of mud.

[SharpeXB]

"As the two Fw 190s taxied across the field to the start line their wheels were in water; their propeller wash throwing up fountains of spray. At the far side of the field they turned into the wind ready for take-off. Under normal conditions aircraft would lift off in the centre of the field, retract their undercarriages, and roar past low over our heads.

But these were not normal conditions. As the pilots opened their throttles each machine was enveloped in a solid cloud of spray which rose above cockpit level before being whipped away behind them in long streamers by the whirling propellers. Then they began to move, still half-hidden by spray. As they gathered speed their noses appeared, the forward momentum at least allowing the pilots to see ahead. But both remained firmly anchored to the ground. They reached the middle of the field still heading for us and it was clear that neither was going to be able to lift off in time.

But then the leader, by pure luck, must have hit a patch of drier grass. He yanked the machine off the ground and got clear. His number two, however, continued to plough through the slush and was now heading directly towards the gun emplacement. The pilot gave one final despairing pull on the stick. His wheels came free of the water at the last moment, only to clip the top of the earth embankment. The tail reared up, the machine somersaulted and smashed into the ground on its back.

We were running to help even before it hit. We saw that the windscreen and canopy had been squashed flat with the top of the fuselage. From inside the machine the invisible pilot was screaming for help. We tried getting underneath one upturned wing and lifting the aircraft by brute force, but it was hopeless. Steam was rising from the hot engine half-submerged in the snow and slush. The smell of petrol grew stronger as we continued our efforts. Realizing he was about to be burnt alive, the young sergeant was still screaming and begging for someone to put him out of his misery.

“Everybody back at once, everybody back . . . the machine’s going to go up any second!” The Kommandeur had also come running to the scene. We scrambled out from under the wing and jumped clear as the Focke-Wulf exploded in a fireball. The voice from inside was stilled. I don’t know if anybody had put a bullet into the unfortunate pilot. We all carried pistols and the sound of a single shot would have gone unnoticed in all the noise and confusion. It was never investigated."

"Luftwaffe Fighter Ace" - Norbert Hannig

[seafireliv]

I'm not worked up, it's just strange to see statement over statement about what the planes or pilots could not do, didn't do, wouldn't do, where I've seen pretty much everything in real life. Even idiots happen there occasionally as well.

 

Edit: All the ice in Antarctic is just compressed snow. Feel free to argue semantics.

I believe most of us were talking in normal  snow conditions as in a warfare situation on a standard airfield in winter. When you brought up 3km you actually were the one using semantics when you clearly understood we were talking about normal snowy conditions. In fact, you were actually derailing the main point of the thread.

Edited May 19, 2016 by seafireliv

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

"Luftwaffe Fighter Ace" - Norbert Hannig

 

Wow. 

[JtD]

So, would your point would be you can take off with 3km of snow and snow free surfaces but not with 30cm? If so, please explain. If not, what's the problem with bringing up 3km?

 

Bottom line, it's not generally impossible to take off through snow / from snow covered ground, even if taken to extremes. It of course depends. But unless I have missed something, the in game physics tell us how passable the modelled snow conditions are, as opposed to SharpeXB telling us how they 'almost certainly' are supposed to be.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Darn this is turned into a stupid ass thread

[SharpeXB]

Wow.

They were ordered to make an attack under desperate conditions. Over the Kommandeur's objections. So the he asked for volunteers. We don't face such realities taking off across the field in a game.

SharpeXB telling us how they 'almost certainly' are supposed to be.

Well the above example gives you a 50% chance of success taking off in a Fw 190 across a waterlogged field. Edited May 19, 2016 by SharpeXB

[seafireliv]

So, would your point would be you can take off with 3km of snow and snow free surfaces but not with 30cm? If so, please explain. If not, what's the problem with bringing up 3km?

 

Bottom line, it's not generally impossible to take off through snow / from snow covered ground, even if taken to extremes. It of course depends. But unless I have missed something, the in game physics tell us how passable the modelled snow conditions are, as opposed to SharpeXB telling us how they 'almost certainly' are supposed to be.

I don`t have the inclination to go into some dumb one-upmanship contest with you. i`m not that young or foolish any more. Have your way.

[JtD]

Well the above example gives you a 50% chance of success taking off in a Fw 190 across a waterlogged field.

[Edited]

Edited May 21, 2016 by Bearcat

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

 

Nope, you can't operate from wet, muddy fields...  nope....

 

Yet in the "sim" ground operations in the dry are touch and go...

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7egVqOyKA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NkSkeIl4LQ

 

Nope, you can't operate from wet, muddy fields... nope....

 

Yet in the "sim" ground operations in the dry are touch and go...

 

Good examples. I was wondering about islands in the Pacific too. All of those aircraft I saw there in the Alaska film have nose wheels though, P-38s & Aerocobras for example. A tail wheel plane would be apt to nose over hitting the water like that. Edited May 20, 2016 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

Only fools take one sample as representative.

Sorry I only had time to find that one account.

I was going to do a statistical analysis of every takeoff in the Second World War and analyze it by aircraft weight, configuration, ground surface, coefficient of friction for the various tire grades of every nationality depth of snow, water and ice (measured in kilometers) and then cross index that with rates of injury or death. But it's just not that important.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Airacobra units were constantly grounded in 1944-1945 when operating from muddy fields in Germany. Ground operations had priority so all the concrete airfields were immediately assigned to Il-2 and Pe-2 units while fighters were relegated to operating at maximum range since all available airfields closer to the front were bogged down by bad German weather. Gears would retract, propellers would bend and other stuff that made operations a hazard to the point that bombers and troops had little to no air cover. I can post the translated relevant bits here.

[JtD]

Sorry I only had time to find that one account.

I was going to do a statistical analysis of every takeoff in the Second World War and analyze it by aircraft weight, configuration, ground surface, coefficient of friction for the various tire grades of every nationality depth of snow, water and ice (measured in kilometers) and then cross index that with rates of injury or death. But it's just not that important.

Or you can chose to not take the single sample as representative. Here's a few more samples.

 

[SharpeXB]

Or you can chose to not take the single sample as representative. Here's a few more samples.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9BqmW4KIdw

Good find.

Hey that would be an awesome feature add to IL-2. Rain soaked airfields. Rise of Flight can do seaplanes... So the physics is already in the engine ;-)

Edited May 20, 2016 by SharpeXB

[JtD]

Hey that would be an awesome feature add to IL-2. Rain soaked airfields.

Great, we finally agree on something.

[LLv44_Damixu]

Why all these armchair sim only pilots post in this thread with such ferocity posing as they have any true experience and thus perspective to contribute on these discussions?

 

[Edited]

 

The bulk of this post has been edited. Please refrain from making such posts on these boards.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Bearcat

[wtornado]

Or you can chose to not take the single sample as representative. Here's a few more samples.

 

It must be the water and the mud that keeps them from ground looping at low speed.

 

Hehehehe

[Trooper117]

Aviation forums haven't changed, they have been this way for as long as I can remember. Some of the 'debates' were far, far, worse than what we have here...

I was new years ago, and so were all of you, the mad verbal attacks and opinions that I ventured upon didn't put me off one bit.

What it did do was spur me on to understand what it was all about... if a bit of 'internet gossiping' is going to put you off, you aren't that interested or determined anyway.

 

Human nature is sometimes annoying, and you will meet the 'experten' and armchair generals in every form of gaming no matter what it is.

If people can't take the so called 'drama' of the internet, there really is no hope for them in the real world...

[SharpeXB]

I feel sorry for newcomers and not so experienced gamers of this IL2. They will be scared away of this nasty feature not giving anyting enjoyable gaming moments in return. They will not come back. Word of mouth on the Internet will eventually drive away any potentially interested newcomers.

There are plenty of settings and simplifications for newcomers in this game to make it accessible. Simplified Physics, Mouse Control etc.

You don't need to taxi, take off or land to play the campaign either if you don't want to. And that isn't required for multiplayer either. There are servers which have different difficulty settings and air-starts. The player can make this game as hard or as easy as they choose.

Edited May 20, 2016 by SharpeXB