Talk me down from the edge...

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Here is an old unedited line from the 2009 Code of Conduct for the squad I flew with in IL2-1946.  I am sure others flew under the similar rules.  This is why you see resistance to acceptance of chute killing by a segment of the community.

 

* Never shoot down allied/axis parachutes.
(This is one of the basic rules throughout the entire IL2 Community, WE DO NOT PERMIT IT!)

 

So knowing a significant portion of BOS community flew and now fly still abiding by this convention, why go out of your way to piss people off?  It's like shoulder shooting and kill stealing, just not done by upstanding pilots.

[GrendelsDad]

I was making babies in 2009 not playing online flight sims.  Just read my OP tomorrow when you are not angry at me. Who is going out of their way to piss people off? Have you read my posts where I acknowledge that its not the best thing to do?  As the discussion progressed I guess I was coming around.  But it does not completely invalidate my view that a radio makes you a combat effective person within the scope of the game.  Your last post is much more constructive and I get it.  There is sense in what I am saying if you look at it from a purely strategic point of view.  And with this discussion I see many of you do not share my gaming mindset.  Doesn't make me rude or give any indication I am trying to piss anyone off or am low on character.   Again I stated that in original post to let people know I see there is another side to this issue and I am not blind too it.( which is a courteous thing to do in discussion if the subject is sensitive, little did I know how much so).

Edited April 25, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Scarecrow]

Don't play online and I'm to crap to care about stats but this had been an entertaining discussion. I don't want voice an opinion because my wife is so ugly that we can't have kids.

[GrendelsDad]

Me too Chief ...I was having kids in 1998 as well. My last was born 2014. Do that math then ask me what I was thinking.

Edited April 25, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[GrendelsDad]

Don't play online and I'm to crap to care about stats but this had been an entertaining discussion. I don't want voice an opinion because my wife is so ugly that we can't have kids.

I am sure she is lovely...but if I see her with a radio in her hand , let's just say you are cooking dinner.

[FTC_Etherlight]

I don't quite agree with you. Regardless of your play style you can be respectful of others. Shooting down friends and clowning is a completely different animal as well.

 

Douchey behavior, however, pretty much makes a man.........well, a douche. Actions defining the man, louder than words, etc. It is certainly indicative, if not outright defining, a person's character on the other side of the screen.

 

Yeah, but I do not view those actions as being a douche, just like quite a few other people don't think that way. That's what I was trying to point out when I wrote "Fact is that me and many, many of those playing BoS today have not "grown up" in those communities and do not share the same values or we do and just do not link certain actions to specific values.". It is simply a difference of perception for the most part, I think. This situation reminds me very much of an ongoing little fun argument I'm having with my grandfather. In the German language there is the word "geil" which in modern times is pretty much equivalent go "awesome" or "amazing", although it is a bit..mh...street to use it. It is therefore often used by younger generations and even I somestimes use it in certain situations (I'm 27 and therefore not really a youngster anymore ^^). In the olden times of my grandfather however, it meant "horny" or "slutty", mostly used on women of the easy and "amoral" kind, you know? It was a pretty bad word back then. Therefore, everytime I use it when my grandfather hears it, he's giving me "the look". ^^ I don't even do it on purpose to screw with him, it just happens. Could I bend my language and my modern identity to appease the old and very particular view of my grandfather? Sure. Should I be forced to? No, I don't think so, since I am always taking the stance that people have to change with the times. This would be one such instance in my honest opinion.

I think this discussion shows quite a few parallels to that, which is what I wanted to express. Sorry for comparing you to my grandfather btw. :D

 

Here is an old unedited line from the 2009 Code of Conduct for the squad I flew with in IL2-1946.  I am sure others flew under the similar rules.  This is why you see resistance to acceptance of chute killing by a segment of the community.

 

* Never shoot down allied/axis parachutes.

(This is one of the basic rules throughout the entire IL2 Community, WE DO NOT PERMIT IT!)

So knowing a significant portion of BOS community flew and now fly still abiding by this convention, why go out of your way to piss people off?  It's like shoulder shooting and kill stealing, just not done by upstanding pilots.

 

I'm not doing it to piss a certain segment of Sim Pilots off (if I do it at all, happened maybe 3 times), I do it for the reasons stated in my original post. Is there a chance that a segment of the population might view that as bad behaviour? Yup, but that's not the intention. It's a risk and a price to pay maybe, yes. But expecting people to conform to the self-imposed rules of a few for the sake of that? I don't see that as necessary to be honest. Squadrons and Servers are absolutely free to impose those rules on their members/people playing on the server and that is their right, and I would absolutely follow those rules. But as long as it is not established mandatory by authority, I would not want to force people to abide by it. It's in the game, it's a mechanic, so people shall use it as they please. It's not an exploit, it's not unfair, it does not break game mechanics... Sorry, I just can't find a reason to make a big deal out of it.

Edited April 25, 2016 by JG4_Etherlight

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

In WW2 you were considered too old to fly if over 30, food for thought. Funny how most WW2 flight simmers are well over that or even the average in WW2 (early 20s). 

 

This talk of chute strafing made me look it up, kind of interesting... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists

 

This was a good story if true:

 

 

On March 31, 1943, a squadron of USAAF B-24 bombers sent to destroy a bridge at Pyinmana, Burma, were attacked by Japanese Zero fighters. One B-24 aircraft was shot down and its occupants, including 2nd Lt Owen J. Baggett, bailed out in their parachutes. While the downed B-24 crew members were descending back to earth, they were machine gunned by Japanese fighters. Two of the crewmen were killed and Baggett was wounded in his arm who played dead in his harness, hoping the Japanese would leave him alone. One Japanese plane, however, circled and approached very close to Baggett to make sure he was dead.^[30] Baggett raised his M1911 pistol and fired four shots into the cockpit, hitting the pilot;^[31] the Zero stalled and crashed. Later reports from a Japanese officer indicated that the Zero pilot died from a single bullet wound to the head. Baggett became legendary as the only person to down a Japanese aircraft with a M1911 pistol.^[32]

[GrendelsDad]

Awesome read Harry...if not true it would make a nice sequel to Memphis Belle.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Here is an old unedited line from the 2009 Code of Conduct for the squad I flew with in IL2-1946.  I am sure others flew under the similar rules.  This is why you see resistance to acceptance of chute killing by a segment of the community.

 

* Never shoot down allied/axis parachutes.

(This is one of the basic rules throughout the entire IL2 Community, WE DO NOT PERMIT IT!)

 

So knowing a significant portion of BOS community flew and now fly still abiding by this convention, why go out of your way to piss people off?  It's like shoulder shooting and kill stealing, just not done by upstanding pilots.

 

Unfortunately there was a huge gap in WW2 sims (CLOD obviously) which fractured the community and meant there was a young generation being raised on the likes of WT....thats not to say WT is bad it's just that we cannot hold some people to the same standards (and obviously anyone who acts like  retard isn't necessarily a WT player).....having said that if everyone keeps to our conventions and codes we will keep this going....

 

I will also update our rules to ban chute killing and other dumb behaviour on our server but we're never going to be main stream and actually we don't want to be

[Venturi]

The other thing to say is, get help for your chute shooting problem if you still feel like doing something stupid.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Why can't we hold people to standards? And it's also not the standards of 'a few, it is of the many/most. It's why they are called standards of conduct in the first place. Even dogs have standards for the pack. Not many but they have them.

Edited April 26, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[I./JG62_froNt]

I like to hang on my chute and just watch the other planes flying against each other. It also helps me chill out after a intense fight. Never got shot fortunately.  

 

You can decide if you want to be either a douche and shoot the one hanging there helpless or be a sportsman, fly by and wiggle your wings for a good fight.

[Feathered_IV]

Shooting someone after they've bailed "to stop them talking" is just a weak excuse for being a dick. The other person would still have use of TS or the chat menu and you would have to disconnect them from the Internet or go to their home for a more permanent solution.

[Cybermat47]

I honestly don't really care if chute-shooting happens in a game. I won't do it because it's a waste of time, and I could be doing something more fun in the game, but neither will I get upset if somebody shoots pixels at another set of pixels that can't fire pixels back. I just have more important things to worry about.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Cybermat47

[GrendelsDad]

Shooting someone after they've bailed "to stop them talking" is just a weak excuse for being a dick. The other person would still have use of TS or the chat menu and you would have to disconnect them from the Internet or go to their home for a more permanent solution.

Again with the "knowing my motives already"  and again try to call me a name in a sideways manner.  Lame.  Also if i shoot you, you lose your view of the action to a large degree so I dont think it is as weak of an excuse as you so Bravely put over the internet.  Way to try to be a bully.   We have another tough guy on page 3!

Edited April 26, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[seafireliv]

Sorry one more post as to the type of player I am(Seafire struck a cord with his post)...I will spawn at an airfield under attack because I like the aspect of taxing under pressure...Sirens blaring, AA guns going off.  To me this is a great part of the game.  I do not mind putting my virtual life at risk as I think it makes for great drama.

Wasn`t meant at you, m8. I was kinda joking. Sorry if I offended.

[GrendelsDad]

No I was just stating you made me think of how much I like that aspect of the game...taking off under duress.(I thought it showed how I like too play the game and give insight to those that think I am a chute killing maniac.) No harm intended or interpreted.

Edited April 26, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Feathered_IV]

Again with the "knowing my motives already" and again try to call me a name in a sideways manner. Lame. Also if i shoot you, you lose your view of the action to a large degree so I dont think it is as weak of an excuse as you so Bravely put over the internet. Way to try to be a bully. We have another tough guy on page 3!

Well you did ask. I'm one of those old timers who have been a keen member of the community for the last fifteen years and sees this behavior as one of the lowest things you can do online.

[GrendelsDad]

I asked for a discussion, I thought it would go without saying that we wouldn't call each other silly names in the process. Not a big deal, just an awkward way to have a discussion that is all.

To be fair Feathered your last comment I am on board with. Nice delivery.

Edited April 26, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[curiousGamblerr]

a chute killing maniac.

 

I've been reading this thread all day and I'm convinced that's what you are 

 

Also appreciate the astute Harper/Gossage reference earlier

 

I will refrain from sharing my opinion, lest I give some 1946 old timer a stroke... Oh wait, I played 1946... but still, keeping my mouth shut in this thread!

 

Edit: I'm also with you on the taking off while under attack! Lots of fun to get caught on the tarmac with enemy bombers overhead. Vultures, less fun, but there's always other airfields if it gets too bad.

Edited April 26, 2016 by curiousGamblerr

[WokeUpDead]

Chute-shooting: put me in the "who cares, not a big deal, it's only a game" camp.  Team-killing, shoulder-shooting, kill-stealing, verbal abuse in chat, joining the team that already greatly outnumbers the opponent, disconnecting when about to get shot down, those are all much, much bigger sins in my book.  Getting shot while in a chute doesn't deprive you of anything except a streak on your stats page, and that's avoided easily enough by hitting the "finish sortie" button as soon as you've bailed.  

 

On the other hand, I don't really see a point to it from the shooter's perspective either, I think GrendelsDad is exaggerating the tactical benefits of chute-shooting.  So go ahead, shoot me in my chute, maybe it will distract you from noticing my wing-man maneuvering onto your tail, or maybe you'll just run out of ammo at a critical time later.

[GrendelsDad]

Woke up dead, before I read your post I want to tell  you Atom Heart Mother is an underated album...hope that makes sense too you.  Good day.

 

After reading I again agree with you...wasting ammo is a bad thing but as terrible pilot I tend to not have that problem.  Good insight as many others have had as well.  And too show my case and point...on SNBF Spektre crash landed  his 110 and was spotting for us on the ground quite effectively I may add as I was able to get home safe with no flak damage.  So I do think the attacking the guys in bombers that have set up a lookout base/AA gun. is a bit more of a valid target which I stated early in the discussion.

Edited April 26, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[GrendelsDad]

The numbers 666 in game chat have effectively saved my virtual life a few times as well I would like too add.  Spektre was also in my gunner seat a while back and told me just when to cut my throttle so this P40 would over shoot us and he sure did...right into my guns...One of my first kills, so the comms have played a pretty significant role in my gaming experiences thus far.

Edited April 26, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[WokeUpDead]

Woke up dead, before I read your post I want to tell  you Atom Heart Mother is an underated album...hope that makes sense too you.  Good day.

 

After reading I again agree with you...wasting ammo is a bad thing but as terrible pilot I tend to not have that problem.  Good insight as many others have had as well.  And too show my case and point...on SNBF Spektre crash landed  his 110 and was spotting for us on the ground quite effectively I may add as I was able to get home safe with no flak damage.  So I do think the attacking the guys in bombers that have set up a lookout base/AA gun. is a bit more of a valid target which I stated early in the discussion.

 

Haha, of course that makes sense to me, that's not my cow...

 

Your reply to me is more about the benefits of strafing a crash-landed plane than chute-shooting, I agree with the tactic there.  In the old 1946 not reflying as soon as you crash landed was a no-no as it would deny your opponent the kill if he landed or died before you reflied, so I don't think any of the "old-school" players here will have a problem with that.

Edited April 26, 2016 by WokeUpDead

[GrendelsDad]

See these are all things I find interesting and I did not know either.  Thanks for the info.

[[TWB]Pand]

Team-killing, shoulder-shooting, kill-stealing, verbal abuse in chat, joining the team that already greatly outnumbers the opponent, disconnecting when about to get shot down, those are all much, much bigger sins in my book.  

 

Well stated, and I 100% agree... Everyone should read those and let them sink in.  

[Pharoah]

I play sims because I love watching/reading about WW2 combat and 'experiencing' it as best can be via games.

 

Having said that, I'm still human and have human emotions including honour.

 

My view has always been:

 

- ANY a/c in a combat zone is fair game. its a war. The whole 'no vulching' is just plain B/S. airfields shouldn't be in view of each other and if one has enemy a/c overflying it...DON'T SPAWN THERE! (simple). unfortunately its the lazy sods who scream blue murder (ie. vulching) because they're too lazy to spawn at an airfield further afield.

- I don't condone shooting defenceless pilots in parachutes. Yeah its a game I know but I don't shoot pilots in parachutes. Simple. Just the same as I don't crash my burning fighter into a bomber because I know I can respawn and get points for the kill (not intentionally anyway).

- you get shot down by someone better than you (in that fight), S! (ie. salute) them.

 

That's it.

[GrendelsDad]

Right on Pharoah.  I like your convictions.

[unreasonable]

There may be some tactical or legal justification for shooting people dangling helplessly in chutes in MP, just as there was in WW2. As for people using comms while in a chute I have no idea, but while the convention of not shooting parachuting pilots was widely adhered to (in the west at least) there was a school of thought in WW2 that interpreted the shooting down of parachuting pilots to be legally justified, provided that they were descending into their own territory and hence not liable to be made POWs. So a parachuting pilot over enemy territory was in effect in the act of surrender and not fair game, while those falling into their own territory were in effect running away and still a fair target, just as an infantryman who has discarded his rifle and is running from the battlefield can be - and should be - shot in the back. After all, he is just going to come back in the next battle if he is allowed to get away. edit - obviously this does not work in MP as we all rise from the dead...

 

Quite apart from the validity of these tactical and legal claims, the trouble with allowing chute shooting, or other questionable practices, by using these justifications is that it will inevitably lead to reprisals and eventually a new standard, where every chute is shot at regardless of circumstances. While the younger generation of sim pilots may think this is OK - or even funny - the majority of the older players clearly do not. As MP is a social event that needs to avoid angering the player base to thrive, it would seem to me that behaviour that a large segment of the players find intensely annoying and bad manners should be avoided.

 

As to the argument that there are more important issues - well yes, global warming is a huge problem, but I still smile and say hello to my maid when she arrives to do the housework. Deliberate team killing is worse - it put me off BoS MP for good - but that does not mean that chute shooting is OK.

Edited April 26, 2016 by unreasonable

[GrendelsDad]

Unreasonable, you do not live up to your name as I find what you say reasonable.

[Cybermat47]

As to the argument that there are more important issues - well yes, global warming is a huge problem, but I still smile and say hello to my maid when she arrives to do the housework. Deliberate team killing is worse - it put me off BoS MP for good - but that does not mean that chute shooting is OK.

Hmm, fair point.

 

Also, you have a maid?! I don't think I've even seen one in my whole life

[GrendelsDad]

Holy crap I missed the maid line...that's great...as good as my life is right now I still have to do the damned housework.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Honestly, I feel like shooting someone in a chute could be comparable to kicking a guy you just beat the shit out of while he's on the ground.

I've shot a few parachutes before though.

I'd say two maybe? One was an AI, so I guess that wouldn't count, but the other was a friend I was screwing around with.

I'd never do it to another person. While all of you guys talk about how there's always the opportunity to, how many people playing this game stay in a chute long enough for an enemy pilot to turn around? How many people just blow past the bailed pilot and don't look back?

I think it's kinda funny how threads like this make something seem like a huge problem. Yeah; the guy that does it is a dick wad, but from what I can read, most of this just people's commentary on it.

Since I've done it a few times, I'll say, it's a really annoying task to perform. You've gotta shoot the guy down, find the chute before he disappears, turn around, line up the guns on the rapidly approaching target, fire, and finally hit the pilot, whom isn't the largest target in the world.

So at that point, why go through all that effort to piss someone off when they get just as verbal for something as simple as strafing spawns?

[Trooper117]

I have never shot at anyone in a parachute, it may be a game, but it's something I just won't do... However, below is a conversation that was had between Churchill and Hugh Dowding over dinner in 1940.

Below that is a talk between Adolf Galland and Goering... food for thought.

 

During the Battle of Britiain, RAF Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding dined with Prime Minister Winston Churchill at Chequers. After dinner, they discussed the topic about the morality of shooting parachuting Luftwaffe pilots. Dowding suggested that German pilots were perfectly entitled to shoot RAF pilots parachuting over Britain as they were still potential combatants (i.e., going back to a new aircraft to conduct another military mission) while RAF pilots should refrain from firing at German pilots as they were out of combat and would eventually become prisoners of war once they landed on British soil. Churchill was appalled by this suggestion, arguing that shooting a parachuting pilot "was like drowning a sailor".

 

On the German side, Luftwaffe commander-in-chief Hermann Goering asked Luftwaffe fighter ace Adolf Galland about what he thought about shooting enemy pilots while in their parachutes, even over their own territory. Galland replied that, "I should regard it as murder, Herr Reichsmarschall. I should do everything in my power to disobey such an order". Goering—who had been a fighter ace himself during World War I—said, "That is just the reply I had expected from you, Galland"

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The one pilot that I, from the top of my head, openly said that he started chute-shooting was Aleksandr Pokryshkin, but for reasons I wouldn't question.

 

Background story: Pokryshkin never even considered shooting parachuting airmen as an option, for they were unarmed and this constituted banditism. Everyone who bailed out of an aircraft was considered out of combat, even if over their own lines. One day in 1943, his adopted son Junior Lieutenant Nikolay Ostrovskiy was flying as his wingman on an escort mission. Ostrovskiy saw his P-39 was experiencing some engine trouble but carried on. Over the front, the engine started smoking and Pokryshkin said enough, sending his wingman back home. When the group returned from the combat, Ostrovskiy wasn't there.

 

A day passed, 16 GIAP rang all airbases and divisions nearby, but nobody had heard a thing. It was only two days later that some villagers communicated the tragedy to an army regiment, which then rang 16 GIAP - a pilot from the 16th Guards made it over to Kubanskaya on a smoking aircraft when two Bf-109G ambushed it and set the P-39 on fire. The pilot, however, managed to jump out and opened his parachute on time. It was a matter of seconds until the Bf-109s came around and both shot at him. The pilot landed dead.

 

When the news hit 16 GIAP the whole regiment was downright traumatised by the inhumanity, but of course Pokryshkin was particularly hit by it - his son, whom he had adopted because all his relatives were executed by the German army near Moscow, was killed by some bandits. After that he, with the support of the regiment, swore that there would be no mercy for German airmen who bailed out, in revenge for Ostrovskiy. To my knowledge this was only factually enforced once, when Pokryshkin cut through a Ju-88 formation and brought three down. He saw the parachutes of two whole crews who bailed out and hesitated, but then his consciousness said 'remember Ostrovskiy' and in he went.

[seafireliv]

Chute-shooting: put me in the "who cares, not a big deal, it's only a game" camp.  Team-killing, shoulder-shooting, kill-stealing, verbal abuse in chat, joining the team that already greatly outnumbers the opponent, disconnecting when about to get shot down, those are all much, much bigger sins in my book.

Agreed, except maybe for the verbal chat. You`re always going to get someone saying something stupid and censorship is dangerous. The Xbox, I hear, has a sort of bann-censorship of this which is wrong in my view.

 

Not that I chat abuse! I don`t think I`ve ever sworn in chat, it`s most likely to come out while on TS!

[SharpeXB]

Why bother shooting at the parachutes in the game?

You've already been given credit for the victory when the enemy bails out.

You're just wasting ammo and flying low and slow making yourself a target for no reason.

[=EXPEND=Capt_Yorkshire]

Shooting chutes is not cool, end of

[GrendelsDad]

Seems like a good amount of people agree chute killing is lame for the community sake...on this I do agree. Im not telling people what to talk about but I would still be interested in the views of of people on the "meat" of the OP...if the bomber becoming a lookout-AA post after belly landing is a target? Especially once they open fire right?

[Trooper117]

For me, stats never meant anything... winning never meant anything. It's all about being in the WWII environment, working with others and using tactics, trying to achieve an objective, but not being worried if we didn't achieve it.

If people are sending info whilst in a chute, so what?

If people are sitting in a downed aircraft sending info, so what? 

 

I certainly don't get all bitter and twisted about it, all it means is that they have different morals to me, and they are simply playing with a different viewpoint on how to enjoy the game.

If they cheat, they are simply cheating themselves as much as the rest of us, plus I suspect that is how they approach every single online game they play. You will not change them, so don't worry about it...