Talk me down from the edge...

[GrendelsDad]

Okay I am at a crossroads in my simming life.  I have been playing multiplayer for less than a year.(i tried it a little before but i prefered offline.)  I know I will upset a few people with this but here it goes. 

  I see nothing wrong with shooting people in parachutes and even more shooting a plane who has ditched and is just setting on the ground "disabled" and here is why.

 

1.  I have had my butt saved a few times in my short online career by a friendly who is on the ground sitting in the gunner seat of a bomber that was taken out of the fight.  Now i would not go diving 2000Km to go get a plane but if its close...I am straffing that fool!  They are on the ground telling the enemy your position and even telling the enemy when to break away and which way to go from an attacker!

 

2.  Brings me too the point of someone in a gunner seat shooting at you whilst you are making an attack at a ground target.  I have not been shot down this way but have had an engine damaged by a gunner of a bomber that was also "disabled".  

 

3. I am not a good enough pilot to give the benefit of the doubt in these situations, so I will kill instead of give an advantage too the enemy.

 

These all seem like powerful points for targeting  the threat, especially in these servers where there is a lot of teamwork...

Also I must mention as a fighter these things may not be as important to you but as a guy who used the treetops to get away and hide nothing worse than a guy on the ground giving me up for dead in my slow 110.

 

Please lets discuss and bring me back too the light.  The Darkside is strong within me!

[curiousGamblerr]

I've had wingmen spot for many minutes from parachutes and wrecks on the ground, giving me an advantage, so I say strafe them all!

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Happened to me a few weeks ago, shot down over enemy lines and crashlanded. Someone strafed and killed me. No big deal, I laughed about it and respawned. 

 

Just listen to Lazarus, he knows what he's talking about...

[Lusekofte]

Personally I fail to take this game as serious that it brings me to strafe parachutes , or react if someone do that to me. I might in FNBF where staying alive would bring me another sortie, and I would consider it being a simple act of denying me that.

In servers I have seen a lot worse, I intend no effort talking you to the right side, but if you di that in FNBF it would be talk

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Interesting discussion, it's good to discuss this openly
 

I used to be softer back in the day, but lately I've felt myself be more ruthless than before. So-called 'unclassy' behaviour like ramming an enemy bomber to keep it from eliminating your positions if the ammo is spent becomes a necessity of the front, even if unpleasant. I've had particularly little patience for the 'blink nav lights and wiggle wings' crowd, who only pull such a number after you start catching up on them. Case in point, Hauggy mildly damaged a Bf-109G on Wings of Liberty. The enemy fought a little then tried to run home. I was on my La-5 and with a height advantage so I dived down on the bastard, closed the big cowling flaps and engaged the boost. For the first minute he waved here and there but I was catching up. He tries a turn right and a turn left to see if he can lose him, but I'm stubborn. At about 500m, as I approached guns range, he turns on his nav. lights! You can go, dive down on our group then run away and expect that I play along? As if! I fire a short burst from a distance to signal my intentions. With the lights still on, the Messer pulls straight up and tries to catch me in a barrel roll. His plan was foiled by a hail of 20mm fire that killed the pilot instantly, while Hauggy got the kill - he deserved it, since it was him in the I-16 who prompted the Messer to run away.

 

On the points you raised, I can only agree with you.

 

The whole reason why pilots on their chutes and crashed aircraft are considered exempt from combat is because they are considered unarmed and therefore not dangerous. I a pilot decides to turn a crashed bomber into a machine gun emplacement, that aircraft has re-engaged into combat activities and is thereby a valid target - on top of that, it is one that can has a very limited field of fire, meaning it only takes a turn by the attacker to deliver a clear and unpunished burst at it.

 

About parachutes, I am generally against that sort of stuff. The crew in question escaped a crippled aircraft, fought a good fight and is now descending under white cupolas. Let them! The only situation where I would promptly gun down a chutist would be if the pilot in quesiton has committed some serious banditism (for example, if Pilot A kills my wingman on his chute).

[Trooper117]

It's a game lads... it's not that serious 

[GrendelsDad]

It's a game lads... it's not that serious 

 

It is an interesting discussion.  Take part. I mean no disrespect.  I often agree with many of the things you say.

Edited April 24, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Nightrise]

In my mind as long as your still flying your still a valid target. Even if you are running for home. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

[Asgar]

[MasterBaiter]

I dont shoot at parachutes, crashed planes or damaged planes about to crash land..

 

It's all about honor!

 

And I hate people doing that..

Edited April 25, 2016 by UF_Winterz

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

Depends on the situation at the time of said act of e-dishonor.

 

This internet e-bushido stuff can be VERY serious at times.

 

Speaking for myself, my weekend yacht requires the tears of my enemy's for ballast. So yes, I NEED to chute kill and base camp.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Depends on the situation at the time of said act of e-dishonor.

 

This internet e-bushido stuff can be VERY serious at times.

 

Speaking for myself, my weekend yacht requires the tears of my enemy's for ballast. So yes, I NEED to chute kill and base camp.

 

Interesting point :D

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Well, in the context of the sim ONLY:

 

I fly the IL-2 almost exclusively, with a bit of Pe-2 thrown in.  Needless to say, even with intelligent squad flying and an escort fighter or two, it can be a very, very, very rough ride.  I once looked at a replay of a sortie with just two of us in IL-2s and counted 7-8 enemy 109s and 190s that had been swarming us.  When any of us go down or bail out, we will be strafed guaranteed, no exceptions.  Add to that the fact that a lot of these 'honorable' guys value their virtual life(streak, DED does this well) quite highly and I know what to do.  If I ever, ever see a chute, I'll shoot it or fly into it like a madman.  Plane crashed on the ground? Shoot it, bomb it, rocket it.

 

That said, the best target in the sim is a line of enemy aircraft starting up at the airfield.  All the shocked screaming in chat that military aircraft on the ground at a military target could possibly be targeted and what cowards we are makes the next few beatings tolerable.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Silas

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Well, in the context of the sim ONLY:

 

I fly the IL-2 almost exclusively, with a bit of Pe-2 thrown in.  Needless to say, even with intelligent squad flying and an escort fighter or two, it can be a very, very, very rough ride.  I once looked at a replay of a sortie with just two of us in IL-2s and counted 7-8 enemy 109s and 190s that had been swarming us.  When any of us go down or bail out, we will be strafed guaranteed, no exceptions.  Add to that the fact that a lot of these 'honorable' guys value their virtual life quite highly(DED represents this well) and I know what to do.  If I ever, ever see a chute, I'll shoot it or fly into it like a madman.  Plane crashed on the ground? Shoot it, bomb it, rocket it.

 

That said, the best target in the sim is a line of enemy aircraft starting up at the airfield.  All the shocked screaming in chat that military aircraft on the ground at a military target could possibly be targeted and what cowards we are makes the next few beatings tolerable.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbVZHjfE1lo

 

One of the other missions Custard some how got 7 kills in a single attack lol

[Guest deleted@30725]

I don't shoot people in chutes because they pose no threat, same on the ground unless bomber with alive gunner shooting back. This is game. I play for the challenge. 

 

It's not all about the points yo.

 

But.. did you know there is a war on? People do crazy things in war. There were first hand accounts of german pilots who shot people in chutes. There were probably brits and americans who did it too. 

 

But... ...this things easier games. You don't have to live with the sickening feeling for rest of life knowing you actually killed people and that they're never coming back and to kill them in chutes irl is that honor or sport if peacetime meet that person and probably have beer with them.

 

In game we might smash keyboard or call a name at screen, but we still live, so does it matter? We are civil, we know laws. Do we do in game as we think we would do if real. Or how can we ever tell what we would do. Perhaps we save people in chutes and in real war we'd dehumanize them as targets when in plane or not. Perhaps game is demonstration of your real personality if we were fighter pilots in a real war fighting for our lives. Less planes good, less pilots to use them is also good.

 

Yet it's game... It's game. We do crazy things in game. Hard to tell. I certainly don't run down pedestrians in my car, but in grand theft auto I get reward. In real life I'd get reward. I'd get jail for eternity or death row. In grand theft auto I get women and money and then get my guy gets shot in head and goes to hospital to live again.

 

You think this too much, it's interesting, but I think overthinking is for nothing yet still interesting to see the people who would and would not even in a virtual fantasy playground of realistic sim.

 

For us dying this game has no consequence, player might find it annoying, but game so anything goes. Infinite lives and no pain. Maybe we put pain to joystick we'd avoid shooting each other more Maybe it shock you for mental anguish each time you shoot person in chute. You don't have to re-live that memory every time you sleep, there is no mental anguish, no remorse or regret because game with boundaries and its own rules to enable simulation or real events. 

 

At the end of the session we log off and do our normal lives and we need not feel bad for many of our actions while following rules of the game.

 

Yet feel free to play the way you want to, there is no rule against it. Only a rule in your mind that maybe you question yourself.

 

At some point though you will be the guy in the chute getting shot and you will either laugh about it or get annoyed by it or an eye for an eye. It was... ...inevitable. What goes around comes around.

Edited April 24, 2016 by deleted@30725

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I never shoot anyone in parachutes. That is rude.

Instead, I shoot their actual parachute, and watch them fall to death. It adds some spice to the saltiness.

EDIT: Hi Grendel!

Edited April 24, 2016 by 6./ZG1_milopugdog

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I never shoot anyone in parachutes. That is rude.

Instead, I shoot their actual parachute, and watch them fall to death. It adds some spice to the saltiness.

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Some next-level evil sh-- right there

[Monostripezebra]

Speaking for myself, my weekend yacht requires the tears of my enemy's for ballast. So yes, I NEED to chute kill and base camp.

 

Liquid ballast is dangerous, as it shifts CoG, mass wise dense fixed materials like lead are 100% more efficent. So here is my solution: catch more bullets and you´re need to chutekill is evaporized!

 

 

 

PS, I like crashing, so I let people do that in peace.

[seafireliv]

The way I`ve always seen it is if it happened in the real thing, it should be possible in the sim. Now I`m not the kind of guy to shoot someone in the chute, and I higly doubt I would, but I would have no problem shooting enemy aircraft taking off or landing. I know in game terms it`s frustrating and unfair (I`ve been vulched myself), but that`s war, even if simulated. Real life fighters don`t get to restart, we do.

 

I am always amazed when people play war games then get upset when someone does an act that is part of what happened almost routinely in war.

 

So if a guy shot me in the chute, I`d be annoyed, even angry, but I wouldn`t ask for it to be stopped, I`d probably just shoot him when he`s hanging in his chute.

[Wulf]

When I saw the thread title I just assumed this was about the FW 190.  Unfortunately not.

 

Couple of quick points:

 

1) "Ditching" is to go down into the sea or a lake.  So ... you don't "ditch" on land, okay; and

 

2) Shoot as many people in chutes as you like.  Your call.  Just don't get your knickers in a bunch if those self same people call you a 'see you next Tuesday' over the chat.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Wulf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I still don't know how it feels to be on the receiving end of a chute kill, and fortunately I have not had to perform one just yet.

 

The main reason for the former is a habit of flying in a group and aboard Lavochkin designs. Aboard a LaGG-3, you are rarely forced to bail out. Most of the time the aircraft gets you home. If not, it lets you crash land at least. You're probably dead if the LaGG-3 becomes uncontrollable. Flying in a group also helps because there's always a wingman to scare off a hungry buzzard so they won't latch onto you and shower you with bullets. Instead you have to deal with the result of a burst or two, but nothing critical.

Edited April 25, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

i love how people are justifying chute kills. It is cowardly and unsporting. This is a game and it is just douchey behavior. I did it once in a fit of rage and regretted it for weeks. I assure you I am no delicate flower either. I wouldn't p!$$ on you if you were on fire after seeing you do this. To do such a thing shows your character or absolute lack thereof.

 

Strafe and bomb, however, a military target all you want. That is an entirely different discussion.

Edited April 25, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[216th_Peterla]

I've been killed hanging in a chute several times, mostly on normal servers and the enemies always flying axis side. I will not target chutes unless I know that the guy hanging is the guy that killed me in the same way before, but this is still for happening.

About the FNBF's, chute killing and vulching are not allowed as per the RoE.

About the planes that force landed, if they don't de-spawn they could become viable targets due to their tactical nature as observers.

Edited April 25, 2016 by 216th_Peterla

[Feathered_IV]

I don't like it. I take it as a calculated insult from the other player and an indicator of their low character.

[GrendelsDad]

I guess I play to win.  That has always motivated me in athletics and in games.  I do not have a win at all cost mentality, but i do see if someone is calling to team mates my position, than it becomes a valid tactic to take the person out where ever they are.  Again I think many fighter pilots are against this method for the most part.  As I said I spend most of my time 200km or lower attacking with little or no ability to run away when attacked.  As it stands now I do not attack airfields unless the mission calls for it, Nor do I chute kill.  I do however look for any advantage in a game or sport I am playing.  I have been chute killed, and I think its a valid tactic.  If pilots in WW2 had radios and where calling to the enemy positions of your buddies you would waxxx that guy!!!  So I think if you take your ability to run away out of the picture, your outlook and tactics will tend to change on some things. 

 

For the record I have never gotten my knickers in a bunch on the internets

 

To associate character traits with a tactic in this game is a bit of a stretch I would think.  

[Wulf]

I guess I play to win.  That has always motivated me in athletics and in games.  I do not have a win at all cost mentality, but i do see if someone is calling to team mates my position, than it becomes a valid tactic to take the person out where ever they are.  Again I think many fighter pilots are against this method for the most part.  As I said I spend most of my time 200km or lower attacking with little or no ability to run away when attacked.  As it stands now I do not attack airfields unless the mission calls for it, Nor do I chute kill.  I do however look for any advantage in a game or sport I am playing.  I have been chute killed, and I think its a valid tactic.  If pilots in WW2 had radios and where calling to the enemy positions of your buddies you would waxxx that guy!!!  So I think if you take your ability to run away out of the picture, your outlook and tactics will tend to change on some things. 

 

For the record I have never gotten my knickers in a bunch on the internets

 

To associate character traits with a tactic in this game is a bit of a stretch I would think.  

 

 

You can shove a pig in a dress and put lipstick on it if you want (and yeah, sure, I've been there) but it's still a pig.  So lets just cut the crap.  Chute-shooting is the flight sim equivalent of gamer teabagging.  [Edited]   I'm no expert but maybe it's time to confront the obvious.  Just sayin..........  

 

Really?

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bearcat

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Not everyone flew the original IL-2 but back then chute killing was pretty much forbidden on nearly every server and was considered one of the worse things you could do.

 

I can see why some people (not the OP) started doing it and it's because of the introduction of stats....killing the pilot ends his streak. As much as the stats look really nice it was bound to lead to this.

[GrendelsDad]

Hey WULF...I have made a habit of rocking jaws loose. Come see me tough guy.lol. See how silly trying to be tough on the Internet looks? Stay on topic and don't call people names. It really deflates what your saying, even if you have valid points. Just so you know I have a beautiful,skinny, sexy wife who is years younger than me. Looks like those *athletics* paid off. Oh yeah, I stay home with my kids for a living? What do you do that makes you angry?(knickers bunched much?)

Edited April 25, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I propose you square off in a flare gun duel. Both take I-16s and fly towards each other, no firing in the first pass. First one to run out of flares or die, loses.

[Brano]

I don't shoot at parachutes. As Emil wrote,it is something that I learned in the days of old sturm. Such behavior was not tolerated on majority of serious servers leading to bans (even permanent) or simply folks kick-voted such individual out of the game. I try to fly with relaxed and mature audience. Guys from ZG26,216SAD/55IAP,JG52... Thanks to Emil and Coconut for providing us with servers and missions where the last thing to take care of are stats and chute killing.

[GrendelsDad]

Do as you want: if someone thinks you're an ass for it, then you either care or don't.

 

Sitting in a downed aircraft for a tactical advantage for others means you're fair game to be shot up though. Personally I enjoy crash landing and trying to stay alive, but log out straight away.

 

Trying to kill someone else's stats by a chute kill is part of online play I'd just rather avoid.

 

And your actions online to other humans (not AI) are part of your personality, even if you convince yourself of an alter-ego. You know your actions are towards a human. You may judge things differently to them but they have feelings you either respect, consider or ignore.

 

Chief I respect you on these forums and I agree with your post.  I just want to ask do you not think that if someone is calling too their mates and giving away positions that they are a target in the scope of the game.  If they would just float to the ground I would let them live no problems.  This is more directed to the squads and people using teamspeak and I should have made that clear in the OP.  Not everyone comes into these games understanding all the rules, so I think discussions like these are a part of people learning to navigate the game.(pun intended)  Just for perspective like many in this forum my first real game was Chess.  This is where a lot of my GAME mentality comes from.  There is no mercy in Chess!  It is a strange concept to grasp for some who do not value their virtual stats or lives either.(like a 15 year old who just logged off Call of Duty)  I fly in squad and chat often, my mates can attest I do not chute kill or otherwise act like an idiot.  Thanks to everyone for your input, even if you are upset, I like that 99% of us express ourselves with respect. 

​Brings me to my next point.  I propose we have a forum sanctioned HIT LIST!!!!

what is this you say.  Any one who acts like a jerk on the forums or in game, we will have a thread and that person can be place on your parachute kill list.  you can only have a max of 5 people on this list at any given time.  You must give 24 hour notice to the person on the forum in said thread and via personal message...WULF you are number one on my hit list good sir.(slaps with leather glove). 

[Asgar]

-snip-

​Brings me to my next point.  I propose we have a forum sanctioned HIT LIST!!!!

what is this you say.  Any one who acts like a jerk on the forums or in game, we will have a thread and that person can be place on your parachute kill list.  you can only have a max of 5 people on this list at any given time.  You must give 24 hour notice to the person on the forum in said thread and via personal message...WULF you are number one on my hit list good sir.(slaps with leather glove). 

yes, and next week we start chasing them to the market place and start throwing spoiled vegetables at them! i love that idea 

Edited April 25, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[GrendelsDad]

Forgive me as I am a very satisfied person. You must read most of what I type with bit of levity and light-heartedness.

[GrendelsDad]

It's a game lads... it's not that serious 

 

I totally underestimated this comment!

 

 

I remember flying a He 111 on the russian kupikolesa-server in Il21946.At some point of the mission I was attacked by a fighter and I had to take the chute.The fighter pilot took the effort to shoot all 5 chutes of the whole crew down just to get me killed.And what shall I say,I respect every hard working man!

 

You sir are a funny man.

 

Chief, Thanks again for bringing reason too this forum good sir.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Chief I respect you on these forums and I agree with your post. I just want to ask do you not think that if someone is calling too their mates and giving away positions that they are a target in the scope of the game. If they would just float to the ground I would let them live no problems. This is more directed to the squads and people using teamspeak and I should have made that clear in the OP. Not everyone comes into these games understanding all the rules, so I think discussions like these are a part of people learning to navigate the game.(pun intended) Just for perspective like many in this forum my first real game was Chess. This is where a lot of my GAME mentality comes from. There is no mercy in Chess! It is a strange concept to grasp for some who do not value their virtual stats or lives either.(like a 15 year old who just logged off Call of Duty) I fly in squad and chat often, my mates can attest I do not chute kill or otherwise act like an idiot. Thanks to everyone for your input, even if you are upset, I like that 99% of us express ourselves with respect.

​Brings me to my next point. I propose we have a forum sanctioned HIT LIST!!!!

what is this you say. Any one who acts like a jerk on the forums or in game, we will have a thread and that person can be place on your parachute kill list. you can only have a max of 5 people on this list at any given time. You must give 24 hour notice to the person on the forum in said thread and via personal message...WULF you are number one on my hit list good sir.(slaps with leather glove).

Sure, but at the end of a competitive chess match do you then spit on your opponent? I suspect not. This is not the equivalent of hooking a guy as you cross the blueline (hockey) for positional advantage. This is akin to spearing a guy in the balls after you score in overtime. It is childish in the extreme and not tolerated in "sport."

 

This is a game no matter how you cut it. It is not war and doesn't actually "simulate" war in any real way. There are no actual good guys or bad guys to defeat. To pretend otherwise is either immaturity or psychosis. There is no justification for chute kills in a game.

 

As it is a game, it is a social event. We all come together here as a pastime to enjoy the game, the history and for most of us to compete a bit.

 

Chute killing is nothing more than an EFF U and that is just about the least social thing you can do without physical contact. There really is no justification for it, sporting or social.

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Parachutes or what I like to call them... great target practicing 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

There is no justification for being upset by chute kills in a game.

 

-snip-

[Jade_Monkey]

I personally dont shoot chutes but i dont see the big deal either.

 

I dont feel any connection with the pilot, just with the plane.

 

If i shoot down an enemy plane thats a win for me (regardless of whether i killed the pilot).

 

If my plane gets shot down that's a loss, regardless of whether i manage to bail out.

 

Also, no mercy for navlights. After all the hard work to get you, you cant take away the satisfaction of shooting you down.