Impressions from a real-world High Performance Taildragger pilot.

[FuriousMeow]

I don't have bouncy landings, you have to let the plane settle onto the runway - not throw it into it.

 

Bouncy landing:

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[nevervne]

I really appreciate all the kind words, gentlemen. Maybe I'll work on some more informative-type videos after work tonight.

 

If anyone has anything specific they would like to see, go ahead and shout it out.

Edited November 20, 2013 by nevervne

[303_Kwiatek]

Calm missions. I have (I think) a right rudder pedal toe brake that works via rudder input. The locked tail wheel is a non event as yet. I can hold it straight until it gets down to 50km/hr but anywhere between there and 20km/hr she ground loops no matter how much I play with the brake/rudder combination.

 

Hopefully when the tail wheel lock is operational it will cease to be a problem.

 

And after 10 years of the original ILS, RoF since it was released and hundreds of real life landings, this baby is the hardest I've ever struck. Good challenge though, I'll get on top of it eventually.

 

As you describe slow speed ground loop in Lagg it looks like similar story as with ROF planes. I fly taildragers IRL and never had similar problems with my landings like these one in ROF and like these what you describe with Lagg,  In ROF there was need to give some power at the end of landing run to move straight without ground loop.

 

BOS is based on ROF engine so it looks it copy its some flaws. I suppose if you add some power to Lagg and the end of landing run you will counter ground loop tendency like it work in ROF. Alhough i never need to do it in my RL landings to keep plane straight - rudder corrections and brakes was always enough for me ( even with planes without tailwheel lock)

 

Also looking at some vidoes of landing and taxing Lagg i think that tailwheel is too much jumpy as for me eye.

 

Im also interested how they handle with spin in BOS expecially with entering into spin from stall and dynamic stall but also with recovery from spin casue ROF engine had some problems with it.

 

But i need to wait for my winter version of game to check it

Edited November 20, 2013 by Kwiatek

[FuriousMeow]

I've dead stick landed and not ground looped in BoS, it just requires keeping the plane straight at low speeds and not over-braking to one side.

[Dooga]

Unless you've flown a real life taildragger with a skid or a completely free-swivelling wheel like the LaGG's, I don't think it compares that easily - in a RoF plane the contact between skid and ground gives no directional guidance at all.

 

And - it is completely possible to get the LaGG to stop and roll out straight just with rudder, easier with brakes of course. I manage that 90% of the time by now, a lot better than my ratio of beautiful landings.

[migmadmarine]

 

Nevervne, could you possible have some narration in your vids? Talk through what you are doing? 

 

[nevervne]

Nevervne, could you possible have some narration in your vids? Talk through what you are doing? 

Sure! I'll see what I can whip up tonight before the master server shuts down tomorrow morning.

[69th_chuter]

I like the ground handling, too.  The nose's lateral wobble in 1946 was ... disappointing - lol.  

 

 

I also fly real world taildraggers (mostly biplanes) and I must also commend the developers on outstanding flight dynamics.  In my opinion, however, the ground handling is off.  It ground loops too easily.  Ground looping is a function of how shortly coupled a taildragger is (ie the distance from the main gear to the tailwheel).  In the case of the Lagg 3 the plane is not that shortly coupled and should not ground loop so easily.  Perhaps I'm incorrect and the ground looping is the result the main gear being close together, though looking at the model the main gear don't look unusually narrow to my eye.  I have flown many different taildraggers in real life, from Stampes and Citabrias to Texans and I have never flown anything that comes close to ground looping as easily as the Lagg 3!

 

Ground instability is based on the horizontal distance between the mainwheel axle line and the center of gravity.  The Spitfire's mainwheels were almost under the wing, very close to the CG, minimizing the instability; and while this meant that hard differential braking and frantic rudder action weren't required to keep it straight, nose overs were a huge concern (full throttle runups weren't even possible without holding the tail down).  The 109 had the mains (similar track to the Spit) almost completely in front of the wing (putting a lot more weight on the necessarily large tailwheel) which solved any tendency to nose over* but put a big burden on the pilot to try and keep the tail towards the rear. 

 

* I can only assume the Germans were concerned about rough field use as most of their planes had relatively forward located mainwheels.

 

Oh,  Nevervne (oops, I've done that!) I got a chance to fly a PA-36-285 way back in 1978.    I absolutely LOVED that Tiara motor - but I never had to work with it, just roll on 10hrs break-in (it was a warranty replacement) because Conti didn't trust the operators to do it - lol.  The operator eventually converted it to a 300.  I've never gotten a chance to fly the PA-25.

[nevervne]

Chutter - That's awesome! Pawnees are great airplanes. Unfortunately I've got no time in a Brave but plenty of Pa-25-265 time.

 

It sure is nice flying an airplane that weighs next to nothing with a big motor up front. Surprisingly handles much like an Extra on the ground!

[4H_V-man]

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of sim pilots have trouble landing because they don't quite understand what controls airspeed and what controls altitude. Most assume that throttle controls airspeed and the stick/yoke controls altitude. While understandable, that is absolutely wrong. If you trim an airplane to fly straight and level at a given power setting and then add power (throttle), the plane will initially gain airspeed. However, this is only temporary because the plane will also begin to climb. Eventually it will settle into a climb at the ORIGINAL airspeed. Conversely, if you leave the power setting the same and pull the nose up, the plane will initially climb, but the end result will be a reduced airspeed and level flight again. Hence, throttle actually controls altitude and the pitch of the airplane controls speed.

 

On landing, if you need more speed you should lower the nose, not add power. If you need altitude because you are undershooting the runway, you should keep the pitch of the plane steady and add power. A perfect landing results when the wheels touch the runway at the same instant the wing loses lift (stalls). Most sim pilots carry too much speed on approach and are trying to 'fly' the plane to landing. This is why they end up with a big bounce when the wheels touch down; the wing is still generating lift and there is no way the airplane can land. Of course, there are times where you need a tiny bit of extra speed on landing, such as cross-winds or gusty conditions. That's when you hold the nose high with the wheels just off the ground and let the airplane bleed speed until it settles due to loss of lift.

 

I hope my explanation makes sense and helps those of you having problems.

[Tomsk]

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of sim pilots have trouble landing because they don't quite understand what controls airspeed and what controls altitude. Most assume that throttle controls airspeed and the stick/yoke controls altitude. While understandable, that is absolutely wrong. 

 

A few months ago I learned to land like this (trim for speed, throttle for altitude), and it has improved my landings immensely. It's a shame that trim isn't modeled properly yet in the LaGG, because in other sims I've been finding you find the trim setting for a particular speed (with flaps and gear) and the plane will just fly at that speed if you keep off the elevator. For example, I want to do my final at 180kph, so I put in a certain amount of trim, plane just wants to stay at 180kph, even if I add or reduce power. Looking forward to trying it in the LaGG when I get access in December.

 

 On landing, if you need more speed you should lower the nose, not add power. If you need altitude because you are undershooting the runway, you should keep the pitch of the plane steady and add power. 

 

Yes although if you need more speed, and you don't want to lose altitude you should lower the nose *and* add power. I've also found that if you want to increase altitude it's good to add power and gently pull the nose up a little to help the plane find the new pitch attitude more quickly. Similarly to lose altitude, reduce power and nose down a little. If you don't pull up a little when you add power then it will eventually add altitude, but it will take a long time doing it, which can easily lead to you adding too much power and oscillating. "Hmm too low, add power, hmm nothing's happening, add more power, woah too high now, drop power, hmm still way too high, dump power, gah too low, power on hard!". Easing those transitions with gentle nose movements makes those kind of oscillations less likely, in my experience. It is even better if you can trim for the speed you want, because all you do is when you add power, wait a second or two ... nose gently up, slowly release the elevator back to neutral as speed approaches the trimmed speed. To reduce altitude, reduce power and nose gently down at the same time, then slowly release elevator.

 

 That's when you hold the nose high with the wheels just off the ground and let the airplane bleed speed until it settles due to loss of lift.

 

This was another big thing for me. You cannot force the plane onto the ground if it is going too fast, if you try you will just bounce up back into the air. Much better to hold it there, just off the ground, wait for the speed to bleed ... and it will naturally sink onto the runway and stay there. If you're too fast, and feeling like you don't have enough runway to float above it, power back on and climb away ... You can't force it onto the ground, if you try you'll just overshoot the end of the runway. This has helped reduce my bouncing (and airfield overruns!) a lot

[Quax]

Ground instability is based on the horizontal distance between the mainwheel axle line and the center of gravity.  The Spitfire's mainwheels were almost under the wing, very close to the CG, minimizing the instability; and while this meant that hard differential braking and frantic rudder action weren't required to keep it straight, nose overs were a huge concern (full throttle runups weren't even possible without holding the tail down).  The 109 had the mains (similar track to the Spit) almost completely in front of the wing (putting a lot more weight on the necessarily large tailwheel) which solved any tendency to nose over* but put a big burden on the pilot to try and keep the tail towards the rear. 

 

* I can only assume the Germans were concerned about rough field use as most of their planes had relatively forward located mainwheels.

 

+1

 

 

...and the war proofed them right. Steinhoff is telling how he had to choose a field in Sicilia. All shore fields had been controlled and bombed by allies. They had to land their 109s uphill on an extremely short field.

The strip was covered with rocks. He tried to remove some after he landed with his stork. Then he called in his remaining 109s of his wing.

Three point touchdown at the "threshold" was a must. The youngiest unexperienced pilot burned alive

Edited November 21, 2013 by Quax

[Bearcat]

You should read what real actual Mustang pilots said after trying DCS virtual one 

The DCS Mustang is probably the best one to date ... IMO we really won't be able to do a more valid comparison until we get two aircraft that are as similar as possible. I think BoS is going to be the most immersive sim on the market even if just until something else comes along.

[Fifi]

 I think BoS is going to be the most immersive sim on the market 

 

It's on the right rails indeed...

 

 

 even if just until something else comes along.

 

I'm waiting end of 2014 too 

Edited November 21, 2013 by Fifi

[Dooga]

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of sim pilots have trouble landing because they don't quite understand what controls airspeed and what controls altitude. Most assume that throttle controls airspeed and the stick/yoke controls altitude. While understandable, that is absolutely wrong.

Well... no. It is sometimes too simplistic, but overall that throttle-controls-altitude-pitch- controls-speed is no better. Go read this: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182148-1.html

 

It boils down to basic understanding of energy management, and how an airplane actually works. So any correction/change you make to the attitude and path of an airplane usually requires manipulation of more than one control, in sync with the others.

[Rigsby]

Calm missions. I have (I think) a right rudder pedal toe brake that works via rudder input. The locked tail wheel is a non event as yet. I can hold it straight until it gets down to 50km/hr but anywhere between there and 20km/hr she ground loops no matter how much I play with the brake/rudder combination.

 

Hopefully when the tail wheel lock is operational it will cease to be a problem.

 

And after 10 years of the original ILS, RoF since it was released and hundreds of real life landings, this baby is the hardest I've ever struck. Good challenge though, I'll get on top of it eventually.

 

Maybe nevervna can answer this because I am also having problems keeping the Lagg, going straight down the runway. I might be wrong, but when I looked at the video he made, I don't think he used much rudder to stay straight. I think he just had the stick all the way to the left and was using this to keep it straight. Can someone tell me if he is using lots of left rudder like some people are suggesting you do, or is he just using the stick to keep it straight while going down the runway? Thanks!!

[Sternjaeger]

You should read what real actual Mustang pilots said after trying DCS virtual one 

 

what do they say?

[DD_Crash]

Hello Stern, here is the thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111388

[Sternjaeger]

thanks DD_Crash, I briefly met Stevo Hinton at Legends this year and he's such a nice guy! 

I'll have to give a try to the DCS thing at some point, I personally found the A2A stuff quite impressive as well, if anything procedure-wise.

[Crump]

+1

 

 

...and the war proofed them right. Steinhoff is telling how he had to choose a field in Sicilia. All shore fields had been controlled and bombed by allies. They had to land their 109s uphill on an extremely short field.

The strip was covered with rocks. He tried to remove some after he landed with his stork. Then he called in his remaining 109s of his wing.

Three point touchdown at the "threshold" was a must. The youngiest unexperienced pilot burned alive

 

Yes it did prove them right.

 

The state of Luftwaffe pilot training in the last year of the war was atrocious.  The Bf-109 was a pilot's airplane and did not suffer mishandling from inept hands. 

[CIA_Yankee_]

So, to be clear: what precisely is the best way to prevent ground looping in "normal" conditions (no crosswind)?

 

Is it a question of applying some throttle power to give the rudder more authority? Differential braking is not an optionon the LaGG-3, at least.

[Sternjaeger]

keep your wheels down and your tailwheel locked, that should do it. Once you've bled your airspeed and need to taxi out of the runway, you can then raise your flap and unlock your tailwheel.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[CIA_Yankee_]

keep your wheels down and your tailwheel locked, that should do it. Once you've bled your airspeed and need to taxi out of the runway, you can then raise your flap and unlock your tailwheel.

 

Isn't the tail wheel lock nonfunctional right now?

[Dooga]

So, to be clear: what precisely is the best way to prevent ground looping in "normal" conditions (no crosswind)?

 

Is it a question of applying some throttle power to give the rudder more authority? Differential braking is not an optionon the LaGG-3, at least.

You can keep her straight without throttle - it has 'automated' differential brakes, i.e. as you push the pedals, the air to the pneumatic brakes is automatically distributed to the side you're pushing. The same system as e.g. in the Spitfire, but the brakes of the LaGG are really bad...

As mentioned above you just need to be very quick on the rudder on rollout, to catch her before she can swing in any direction. And you only can relax once the plane has come to a complete stop.

[AndyJWest]

Well... no. It is sometimes too simplistic, but overall that throttle-controls-altitude-pitch- controls-speed is no better. Go read this: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182148-1.html

 

It boils down to basic understanding of energy management, and how an airplane actually works. So any correction/change you make to the attitude and path of an airplane usually requires manipulation of more than one control, in sync with the others.

 

Yup. As it says in the article you link, "Everything Controls Everything". A classic example, for anyone who's ever flown the RoF Felixstowe - try controlling the rate of descent with the throttle alone, and you'll run into problems if you are at all ham-fisted. Why? Because the high-mounted engines result in an initial pitch-up when you throttle back, and a pitch-down when you open the throttle. Anticipate this, and give a little nudge in the appropriate direction on the elevator as you move the throttle, and everything is hunky-dory.

[Sternjaeger]

Isn't the tail wheel lock nonfunctional right now?

 

I don't know, I don't use it 

[CIA_Yankee_]

You can keep her straight without throttle - it has 'automated' differential brakes, i.e. as you push the pedals, the air to the pneumatic brakes is automatically distributed to the side you're pushing. The same system as e.g. in the Spitfire, but the brakes of the LaGG are really bad...

As mentioned above you just need to be very quick on the rudder on rollout, to catch her before she can swing in any direction. And you only can relax once the plane has come to a complete stop.

 

So are you saying that if I apply brakes, then push left rudder, the rudder AND the brakes will "favour" the left side?

[nevervne]

Maybe nevervna can answer this because I am also having problems keeping the Lagg, going straight down the runway. I might be wrong, but when I looked at the video he made, I don't think he used much rudder to stay straight. I think he just had the stick all the way to the left and was using this to keep it straight. Can someone tell me if he is using lots of left rudder like some people are suggesting you do, or is he just using the stick to keep it straight while going down the runway? Thanks!!

 

The stick is to the left for crosswind correction. Ailerons into the wind will help you track straight on the initial rollout.

 

I'm using plenty of rudder to keep going straight, and once I get slow enough I start to use -safe- differential braking. Lots of left rudder isn't always needed on the landing roll. You just need to play it by ear and see what the airplane is doing and counteract it.

[Dooga]

So are you saying that if I apply brakes, then push left rudder, the rudder AND the brakes will "favour" the left side?

 

Yes. 

 

But it's hard to notice initially because as mentioned already, the brakes on the LaGG suck. Good thing is, you won't nose over unless you try really hard!

 

Once BoS gets the flight recording feature, I'm going to be interested to watch my legwork on rollout from the outside. Can post that, too, if there's still interest at that point in time

Edited November 21, 2013 by Dooga

[CPSWolff]

Last night was the first "clean" landing I made. Really looking forward to using my Combat Pro rudder pedals to full advantage on stopping. Also the wheel lock will be a real help on take off.  Lot of fun to learn all over again.

[Siegfried]

You, in IRL, you can keep the aircraft in balance using the brakes and lever forward?

 

This is at 0 kph and I can balance indefinitely and take off without touching the ground with the rear wheel. And even make the taxi with some practice.

 

[Crump]

If it has realistic taildragger physics, holding the stick back is key to a good landing.

[RAF74_Winger]

If it has realistic taildragger physics, holding the stick back is key to a good landing.

 

That's the one, as soon as the tailwheel touches, get the stick hard back against the stop to pin it there.

 

W.

[Siegfried]

I have noticed that if you hold the lever in the center relaxed during taxiing runway or deceleration, the rear wheel bounces less than if you keep it back. Also to avoid that 360 ° you have to get gas when you're about to stop.

 

I liked the experience of feeling that you are actually inside the cabin. Probably for the structure of crystals and scratches. And also the feeling of speed thanks to the sound of the wind with both closed and open cockpit. And the damping of the tail wheel that compresses or extends to the movements of the elevator.

 

Sorry for bad english.

[=38=Tatarenko]

I agree, centre stick gives a smooth ride along the runway but back stick bumps the tail like crazy.

[Chill31]

As you describe slow speed ground loop in Lagg it looks like similar story as with ROF planes. I fly taildragers IRL and never had similar problems with my landings like these one in ROF and like these what you describe with Lagg,  In ROF there was need to give some power at the end of landing run to move straight without ground loop.

 

BOS is based on ROF engine so it looks it copy its some flaws. I suppose if you add some power to Lagg and the end of landing run you will counter ground loop tendency like it work in ROF. Alhough i never need to do it in my RL landings to keep plane straight - rudder corrections and brakes was always enough for me ( even with planes without tailwheel lock)

 

Also looking at some vidoes of landing and taxing Lagg i think that tailwheel is too much jumpy as for me eye.

 

Im also interested how they handle with spin in BOS expecially with entering into spin from stall and dynamic stall but also with recovery from spin casue ROF engine had some problems with it.

 

But i need to wait for my winter version of game to check it

I fly both wwi and WWII aircraft and my experience with RoF was that the friction on the tail skid on the ground is not as strong as it is in real life. My guess is that there may be a similar problem with BoS, though I have yet to try BoS. Hopefully very soon!

[4pg_inferno]

wa... Nice review...Thanks

[pixelshader]

I used to hold the rudder until I saw the plane react, then I read that that was a big rookie mistake..

 

http://youtu.be/MAWa9uxtZj4

"When I pull off the power, the plane pulls to the right, as you will see. But then I broke the golden rule. . . I applied opposite rudder, but waited until I felt the tail swinging before I got off of it. Big mistake. Just glad I didn't do anything but flatspot the tailwheel."

 

 

After I started using quick flicks of the rudder I had no problem avoiding ground loops.

Edited November 22, 2013 by pixelshader

[Lone_WolfKuru]

Thanks for share the info nevervne!!

[Gort]

Makes me wonder what sort of runway contamination is modeled, as in ice slicker than frozen snot on a doorknob.

 

You could try fanning the rudder a bit during takeoff or landing- some think it keeps the pilot from letting the yaw go divergent.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Victory205