190 vs yak1

[SKG51_robtek]

I really would like to see the results of the duels proposed in this other, now closed, thread.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Since I and some of the BlitzPigs have been flying more, it's really apparent that the folks saying the Yak is some kind of magical device is just so much nonsense.

 

When I fly the F4/G2/190 I feel like a god, when I fly the Yak 1 I feel like a helpless rodent being attacked in an open field by a hawk.

 

Honestly it's just too easy in the German fighters to control, well, everything.  Hence I try not to fly them so much, as there is just no challenge to it.

 

And please don't start with the miracle of the flaps.  I have tried that, sure if you lure a numpty into a low and slow turn fight they help, once, to gain an inside his turn gun solution, but then you are out of energy and cannot gather it back up nearly as fast as the German planes can.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter, the rest of you may carry on as you see fit.

[DeafBee]

Since I and some of the BlitzPigs have been flying more, it's really apparent that the folks saying the Yak is some kind of magical device is just so much nonsense.

 

When I fly the F4/G2/190 I feel like a god, when I fly the Yak 1 I feel like a helpless rodent being attacked in an open field by a hawk.

 

Honestly it's just too easy in the German fighters to control, well, everything.  Hence I try not to fly them so much, as there is just no challenge to it.

 

And please don't start with the miracle of the flaps.  I have tried that, sure if you lure a numpty into a low and slow turn fight they help, once, to gain an inside his turn gun solution, but then you are out of energy and cannot gather it back up nearly as fast as the German planes can.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter, the rest of you may carry on as you see fit.

 

I like the metafor about the helpless rodent in an open field attacked by a hawk.        Pretty much describes how it is to be a Russian fighter in BOS/BOM against the 109's. I know people from my 19te Sqaudron, which for that same reason don't play the game. And they are too proud to choose "the hawk against the helpless rodent". I know this games needs to be realtistic, but when the plane set is this uneven it will in my opinion drive people away from the game. Don't get me wrong I like that the planes have realistic flight models. Just saying that you really have to be som sort of a masochist to play russian fighters in this sim        

Edited April 18, 2016 by 19te.Deafbee

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I like the metafor about the helpless rodent in an open field attacked by a hawk.        Pretty much describes how it is to be a Russian fighter in BOS/BOM against the 109's. I know people from my 19te Sqaudron, which for that same reason don't play the game. And they are too proud to choose "the hawk against the helpless rodent". I know this games needs to be realtistic, but when the plane set is this uneven it will in my opinion drive people away from the game. Don't get me wrong I like that the planes have realistic flight models. Just saying that you really have to be som sort of a masochist to play russian fighters in this sim        

 

Fly the BOM plane set then The Mig-3 is very dangerous and the I-16 is very good

[Ace_Pilto]

For myself, forfeited. It would be a complete waste of time. Out maneuvering anything int he 190 would be like picking up a turd by the clean end.

Edited April 18, 2016 by VA_JimmyBlonde

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Just saying that you really have to be som sort of a masochist to play russian fighters in this sim        

 

You know, I still disagree with this any day of the week. I only fly the Stalingrad-era Soviet fighters and we constantly get great results.

 

The difference in fighting style must be observed, of course. While the Messers have their own fine ways of fighting (Rall's 'sharp knife' comment illustrates that), the Soviet aircraft when attacking require a bit of a bayonet charge mentality.

 

We fly fast, organised, don't hesitate for a second and come down onto the enemy like an avalanche. In other words, fight like Alexander Suvorov taught you and you won't be disappointed.

 

Some bits about that fine Russian chap...

 

 

Suvorov taught his soldiers the "through attack" (or "attack through") with the bayonet for infantry, and the equivalent with lance or sabre for cavalry. The attackers did not stop to trade blows (as is usually portrayed in the movies), but instead tried to rush through the enemy line whether or not they hit their opponents. It is easy to imagine the effect on the enemy's organization and morale.

"The three military arts. First - Apprehension, how to arrange things in camp, how to march, how to attack, pursue, and strike; for taking up position, final judgement of the enemy's strength, for estimating his intentions. Second - Quickness... This quickness doesn't weary the men. The enemy doesn't expect us, reckons us 100 versts away, and if a long way off to begin with - 200, 300 or more - suddenly we're on him, like snow on the head; his head spins. Attack with what comes up, with what God sends; the cavalry to begin, smash, strike, cut off, don't let slip, hurra! Brothers do miracles! Third - Attack. Leg supports leg. Arm strengthens arm; many men will die in the volley; the enemy has the same weapons, but he doesn't know the Russian bayonet. Extend the line - attack at once with cold steel; extend the line without stopping... the Cossacks to get through everywhere... In two lines is strength; in three, half as much again; the first breaks, the second drives into heaps, the third overthrows."

"Stab once and throw the Turk off the bayonet. Bayonet another, bayonet a third; a real warrior will bayonet half a dozen and more. Keep a bullet in the barrel. If three should run at you, bayonet the first, shoot the second and lay out the third with your bayonet. This isn't common but you haven't time to reload..."

 

When you go on the offensive, cut off the enemy's escape route and fly confidently, no DB engine can save the enemy. One can choose to become a hawk or a rodent.

[DeafBee]

Fly the BOM plane set then The Mig-3 is very dangerous and the I-16 is very good

 

I do. I like flying the I-16 lately.

 

 

You know, I still disagree with this any day of the week. I only fly the Stalingrad-era Soviet fighters and we constantly get great results.

 

The difference in fighting style must be observed, of course. While the Messers have their own fine ways of fighting (Rall's 'sharp knife' comment illustrates that), the Soviet aircraft when attacking require a bit of a bayonet charge mentality.

 

We fly fast, organised, don't hesitate for a second and come down onto the enemy like an avalanche. In other words, fight like Alexander Suvorov taught you and you won't be disappointed.

 

Some bits about that fine Russian chap...

 

 

When you go on the offensive, cut off the enemy's escape route and fly confidently, no DB engine can save the enemy. One can choose to become a hawk or a rodent.

 

Don't get me wrong I like flying Russian in the game. But I am just saying that not being able to climb with the 109s can be a very frustrating experience at times.   

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It definitely can, I agree with you, but there's always a way around it. Second to clearing the skies of enemy aircraft and making a successful sortie, one of the best feelings in this sim is when you get an enemy group on a public server boxed up and have answer to their every move, so they go on a dive and fly back home at tree top level without getting even close to accomplishing the objective

[DeafBee]

It definitely can, I agree with you, but there's always a way around it. Second to clearing the skies of enemy aircraft and making a successful sortie, one of the best feelings in this sim is when you get an enemy group on a public server boxed up and have answer to their every move, so they go on a dive and fly back home at tree top level without getting even close to accomplishing the objective

 

I agree Lucas. 

[Sunde]

I like the metafor about the helpless rodent in an open field attacked by a hawk.        Pretty much describes how it is to be a Russian fighter in BOS/BOM against the 109's. I know people from my 19te Sqaudron, which for that same reason don't play the game. And they are too proud to choose "the hawk against the helpless rodent". I know this games needs to be realtistic, but when the plane set is this uneven it will in my opinion drive people away from the game. Don't get me wrong I like that the planes have realistic flight models. Just saying that you really have to be som sort of a masochist to play russian fighters in this sim        

IDK Bee, i often find myself bagging several 109's in one flight, when flying the Yak. To me it seems to be the most lethal fighter in the game, not in the sense that i is the best performer, but in the sense that the second you have the upper hand in the yak, your opponent is doomed. They can in some situations run, but not very often, they for sure cant turn or climb. Which leaves them at the mercy of its incredibly high velocity guns.  

On the other hand i often find that i can outmanouver the 109 for so long that eventually backup will arrive. 

[707shap_Srbin]

I really would like to see the results of the duels proposed in this other, now closed, thread.

Well, as ZG pilot, I expected a question about Bf110, but not about anything with less than 2 engines onboard

[Venturi]

I never got a response via PM, so there's your answer.

[Venturi]

Since I and some of the BlitzPigs have been flying more, it's really apparent that the folks saying the Yak is some kind of magical device is just so much nonsense.

 

When I fly the F4/G2/190 I feel like a god, when I fly the Yak 1 I feel like a helpless rodent being attacked in an open field by a hawk.

 

Honestly it's just too easy in the German fighters to control, well, everything.  Hence I try not to fly them so much, as there is just no challenge to it.

 

And please don't start with the miracle of the flaps.  I have tried that, sure if you lure a numpty into a low and slow turn fight they help, once, to gain an inside his turn gun solution, but then you are out of energy and cannot gather it back up nearly as fast as the German planes can.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter, the rest of you may carry on as you see fit.

I'll add to that, that I have personally done a ten duel series using a 109E vs a Yak-1 with a very good Yak driver in the duel server, and it went 9-1, 109E. There is precious little to be done against a 109 with a good driver who has lots of patience. Same holds for the 190...

[Venturi]

Fly the BOM plane set then The Mig-3 is very dangerous and the I-16 is very good

Well although I agree these are two very different fighters but also the best the Sovs have ATM, the Mig really is just good because it approaches the 109s in some aspects, however it still does not climb as well, is not as fast, is heavier, and she is also a very tricky b*tch to fly on the edge.

 

The I-16 I have not flown in MP yet, but she rolls and turns well and seems to have a good "combat speed" as well as good armament with the two cannon option. Would not want to tangle with one down low in a dogfight. Don't know about the climb, really - I suspect it will be much less than the 109, so again that advantage comes again.

 

In reality, really fast dives were a no-no for 109s and this limited how the super climb / dive routine could be used. Their elevators locked up at high speeds, and it was very nasty for the 109 pilot if he was too low. Right into the ground. Of course they could use the trim wheel to get out of the dive, but it took too long for that if one started the pull out too low. Not like the insta-trim in the sim right now, where one goes from full down to full up in a second..

[Irgendjemand]

I'll add to that, that I have personally done a ten duel series using a 109E vs a Yak-1 with a very good Yak driver in the duel server, and it went 9-1, 109E. There is precious little to be done against a 109 with a good driver who has lots of patience. Same holds for the 190...

how can one person alone talk so much trash. ROFL

I am sure manfred will come back to you. You know some people actually have a life beside the computergames:P

[DeafBee]

IDK Bee, i often find myself bagging several 109's in one flight, when flying the Yak. To me it seems to be the most lethal fighter in the game, not in the sense that i is the best performer, but in the sense that the second you have the upper hand in the yak, your opponent is doomed. They can in some situations run, but not very often, they for sure cant turn or climb. Which leaves them at the mercy of its incredibly high velocity guns.  

On the other hand i often find that i can outmanouver the 109 for so long that eventually backup will arrive. 

 

True. The Yak is also one of my favorite for the same reasons. But lately had much succes in the I-16 too. Had 6 kills the other night, which 3 was 109's on the Wings Of Liberty server.  

Edited April 18, 2016 by 19te.Deafbee

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The last guy who accepted Manfreds challenge went 0-10 in the 190. I didn't get to see it but I understand he is a heck of a pilot. I too await the outcome.

[Venturi]

how can one person alone talk so much trash. ROFL

I am sure manfred will come back to you. You know some people actually have a life beside the computergames:P

Not talking trash. I usually fly Sov birds, although I used to fly 109s and 190s... Does this mean I get shot down more? Yes, it does. After routinely getting multiple kills per sortie on this game with the German birds, I found them personally too easy to be good in, so I switched.

 

I also have over 400hrs in CLOD on 109s, and those are essentially 190s in this game. So I know what I'm talking about re tactics.

 

I do not care about winning or losing per se, I am sure Manfred is a good pilot. My point is that the 190, even if it were modeled perfectly, requires different tactics than are found used by 80% of online pilots.

 

So flame away at me, I don't care. Also, he'd better hurry as I too have commitments, and my free time is quickly ending.

[Turban]

Well although I agree these are two very different fighters but also the best the Sovs have ATM, the Mig really is just good because it approaches the 109s in some aspects, however it still does not climb as well, is not as fast, is heavier, and she is also a very tricky b*tch to fly on the edge.

 

The I-16 I have not flown in MP yet, but she rolls and turns well and seems to have a good "combat speed" as well as good armament with the two cannon option. Would not want to tangle with one down low in a dogfight. Don't know about the climb, really - I suspect it will be much less than the 109, so again that advantage comes again.

 

In reality, really fast dives were a no-no for 109s and this limited how the super climb / dive routine could be used. Their elevators locked up at high speeds, and it was very nasty for the 109 pilot if he was too low. Right into the ground. Of course they could use the trim wheel to get out of the dive, but it took too long for that if one started the pull out too low. Not like the insta-trim in the sim right now, where one goes from full down to full up in a second..

 

+1

[ACG_pezman]

Ya'll should check out that video I posted in another thread, it is a case study in engaging a 109 with a Yak.  I'm trying to get the community talking about what maneuvers were used, why, and what effect they had on the fight.  A lot of people (myself included) have become jaded with the VVS because they are, at best, competitive but not better.

 

With this current plane set in the game, if you get into an engagement that both pilots are flying perfectly, you should lose in a VVS aircraft.  Lucky for us we all make many mistakes in an engagement and if you can spot them you can learn to harness them.

 

Just check out the video:

 

https://youtu.be/gyyN5fggAq8

[Venturi]

Typical 109 engagement at 7:15 onwards..

 

7:22 you pull too hard (buffeting increases E loss from turn)

8:18 he is diving at over 500kph indicated, it takes him a good turn to pull up but elevators should lock and cause much more alt loss - obviously trim use

8:42 he should have extended, as his violent turning has burned much of his E advantage... pulling up here gives you a shot at him

8:58 should have kept level to make you stall out, then dropped on your tail, as it is he allows you to use a very tight flaps turn at the top of your loop to get immediate position advantage, and now you are higher than him as well - this is the critical mistake

9:23 again he makes the same mistake but this time you have enough speed to pull a guns solution, he is damaged, and now you have both position and energy

10:00 you get the kill shot but if you had missed, even at this late stage with all his mistakes, he would have outclimbed you if he had stayed in the climb and you would have stalled -- and again he would have had the advantage.

 

BnZ takes more than vertical turn n burn.

[Gump]

...

With this current plane set in the game, if you get into an engagement that both pilots are flying perfectly, you should lose in a VVS aircraft.  ...

...

.

unless the german is flying the current 190... that's an easy kill now.

[Turban]

.

unless the german is flying the current 190... that's an easy kill now.

 

Not true. FW are easy kills if the FW pilots makes mistake after mistake. It takes a lot of mistakes to get killed when flying a superior aircraft as the FW.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Turban

[Venturi]

Correctly flown, single combat in a FW vs VVS anything would be very boring to watch and very frustrating for the VVS pilot.

[ACG_pezman]

10:00 you get the kill shot but if you had missed, even at this late stage with all his mistakes, he would have outclimbed you if he had stayed in the climb and you would have stalled -- and again he would have had the advantage.

 

BnZ takes more than vertical turn n burn.

 

I wouldn't have pursued him past what I did.  That shot I took with the flaps, hits or no hits, was ending after that burst.  If he had kept climbing I still would have leveled out and attempted to gain as much forward velocity as possible so that I could jink his next attack.  As it happened though, I was able to land the shots and wasn't as concerned with a vigorous offensive attack from him.  I know if it had been me that was hit I would be looking to egress back home, which is exactly what he did.

 

That comment about BnZ, that is a very shrewd and candid statement.  What my opponent was doing with me was energy fighting, which can look a lot like BnZ, except the difference comes with the extensions.  My opponent did very minimal extensions, instead opting to try and deplete my energy by making my poor Yak play in the vertical.  Had he been preforming BnZ attacks on me he would always have extended away to a safe distance, regained the lost altitude, and then made another attempt.  Lots of people confuse the two fighting styles.

[Venturi]

Yes, and that is foolish as the Yak retains energy better even than the 109 in a turn.

Doing vertical turn and burn, I mean.

[Wulf]

I'll add to that, that I have personally done a ten duel series using a 109E vs a Yak-1 with a very good Yak driver in the duel server, and it went 9-1, 109E. There is precious little to be done against a 109 with a good driver who has lots of patience. Same holds for the 190...

 

 

Fantastic.  Really looking forward to the video I must say.  To think, finally, Manfred's going to get what's coming.

 

Some time ago (4 or 6 iterations of the 190 back in the dim dark past) I took it upon myself to show young Manfred that, by demonstrating a bit of 'colonial pluck' and by taking the fight right to the enemy's front door, I could give him and his nasty little Yak a sound thrashing.  Unfortunately, things didn't go quite to plan and after some very bad luck and an unearthly succession of 'lucky shots' I was forced, reluctantly, to retire from the field of battle, bloodied and somewhat broken but not entirely bowed.  

 

I've since had time to reflect on what went wrong and it occurs to me that in addition to some basic skill deficiencies, I just didn't have the underlying fervor necessary to win the day.   However, I see that confidence and fervor in you Venturi and that gives me heart.  Finally, I think the 190 has the champion it needs.  Someone who can finally break it free from the defeatist mind-set of those on the forum who insist on peddling fiction about it's so-called performance limitations and in so doing, can restore the otherwise sullied reputation of this fine fighter.  Excellent..  

 

 

For myself, forfeited. It would be a complete waste of time. Out maneuvering anything int he 190 would be like picking up a turd by the clean end.

 

Shame on all of you who believed an Australian was simply  incapable of raising the tone.

[Irgendjemand]

requires different tactics than are found used by 80% of online pilots.

 

We can agree on that and NOONE minds that.

What people mind is that !!!IMHO!!! AND int he opinion of many, many many people i know. The FW got just flat out porked in the last patch.

It was not turner before and noone expects it to be an awesome turner.

But what we have right now is just not bearable.

 

Last FM with corrected climbrate was everything people wanted. But instead we get the climbrate fixed and the rest broken.

Thats what people complain about. Not that it cant turn with a YAK.

That and maybe that the LA5 rolls liek an LA5-FN and not like the early type we have ingame, rendering the supposedly (in comparison) awesome rollrate of the FW underpowered.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Irgendjemand]

Edit. No need to announce. Can do that quietly:)

Edited April 19, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Feathered_IV]

Fw-190 threads are rather like the number nine bus.

[Nightrise]

Another 190 thread. Time to grab some popcorn 

[Turban]

 

That and maybe that the LA5 rolls liek an LA5-FN and not like the early type we have ingame, rendering the supposedly (in comparison) awesome rollrate of the FW underpowered.

 

 

Do you have a comment to do on the roll rate of any other aircraft ? I'm curious.

[KoN_]

Not true. FW are easy kills if the FW pilots makes mistake after mistake. It takes a lot of mistakes to get killed when flying a superior aircraft as the FW.

Do you fly the FW-190 .?

Since last patch the 190 has become very sluggish , You now have to fly more carefully and the flip stalls come with no warning .

Its now a boom -  zoom fighter with long extends `regain the hight and reengage by that time your foe might of  long gone . 

In the dog fight server hardly anyone is flying the 190 and when they do they don't last long . Not that they /  we did in the first place , as its a dog fight server .

Like i said its slashing attacks and extend and reengage ,  its takes time .

[Willy__]

 

 

Do you fly the FW-190 .?

 

I think its a hobby to him... to comment about planes he dont have and dont fly.... 

[Turban]

I think its a hobby to him... to comment about planes he dont have and dont fly.... 

And yet asking me that question never invalidates my claim 

 

Basically asking that question is all you have. No argument on the horizon. 

[JtD]

Certainly the Fw190 still is superior if handled properly. However, with the current FM, in combat, it takes 10 times the skill to handle it properly compared to a Yak-1.

Edited April 19, 2016 by JtD

[Turban]

Certainly the Fw190 still is superior if handled properly. However, with the current FM, in combat, it takes 10 times the skill to handle it properly compared to a Yak-1.

 

That doesn't mean much. You mean the yak is easier to fly without getting in a stall for example ?  That would still not make the FW a lesser aircraft and still doesn't make the FW an easier kill. And still doesn't prove there is anything wrong with it.

The Yak porbably is easier to fly (as it should be), but the capabilities aren't great. So .. 

[Irgendjemand]

Certainly the Fw190 still is superior if handled properly. However, with the current FM, in combat, it takes 10 times the skill to handle it properly compared to a Yak-1.

To clarify. It is in levelspeed (only if flown in combatpower at the heights most encounters take place in) and firepower. Nothing else.

As soon as you even think about maneuvering in an engagement while not having a huge energyadvantage - youre basically ... toast. I hear all the time when talking to my friends.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[StG2_Manfred]

I never got a response via PM, so there's your answer.

 

Did we have an appointment? I don't think so, at least not yet.

 

Jimmy wanted to PM me and I didn't get his message, so there's your answer.

 

I have a small surgery in front of me, which keeps me busy at the moment but as soon as it's done I'm gonna PM you, ok. Which time zone do you have?

[KoN_]

I fly both sides and i personally think bring down LW is far more easier ` a few hits and its over , some thing to do with damage modelling  , but i do fly 80% LW.

It can be frustrating but i prefer to fly than sit here arguing  with people ill never meet . !!!

There are some great pilots on the servers , some times i just sit and watch and think wow ` wish i could do that . !!

Edited April 19, 2016 by II./JG77_Con