Case Study: Aerial Combat (Yak v 109)

[ACG_pezman]

Lets discuss this engagement.  What went right, what went wrong, what could have been done better? 

 

Where was the fight won, where was it lost?  How were the performances of each aircraft achieved and what impact did it have on the engagement.

 

We have had some excellent discussions on this forum about tactics and strategy, but they were only words, now lets discuss those same principles and their use (or neglect) and how that effected the engagement.

 

Also, I hope you enjoy the video.  Great flying by both sides and you can see how much of an impact small things have in the overall structure of an engagement.

 

https://youtu.be/gyyN5fggAq8

 

 

[Trooper117]

Can't remember, are the Yak flaps operation, either landing position or  fully up? or are they incremental? Saw them deploy during the fight...

First encounter, got the kill but fired from a long way out.

Later on, could not believe the Yak driver went for  the bomber whilst a 109 was at a height advantage and knew he was there... extremely lucky the 109 didn't cream him then and there, lol!

 

Just a few of my observations...

[ACG_pezman]

Can't remember, are the Yak flaps operation, either landing position or fully up? or are they incremental? Saw them deploy during the fight...

First encounter, got the kill but fired from a long way out.

Later on, could not believe the Yak driver went for the bomber whilst a 109 was at a height advantage and knew he was there... extremely lucky the 109 didn't cream him then and there, lol!

 

Just a few of my observations...

First, flaps are full down or up, airspeed dictates how far out they deploy.

 

There was supposed to be a second Yak (my wingman) who was going to deal with the 109's, but he was downed by the first bandit shortly after the bandit dove away.

 

The main objective is to destroy the bombers since they destroy our ground targets, not following or engaging the second 109 until he came back to the fight was done deliberately to draw him back in to the bombers rather than giving him the victory of driving me away or diverting my attention until the threat he posed was greater than the objective. Was lucky though that the 109 driver was playing it conservative at first.

[SC_Manu653]

Since I was playing conservative and not very good at dogfight I try to stay in advantageous position. I made a tactical error when I lost you, it was to bring you back to the bomber. At least I was hoping to catch you to come in favorable position with the Ju-88...not a nice idea if my task was to protect it.

[GrendelsDad]

I see how the mission for Manu kept him from escaping so to speak as he had to maintain his escort  mission.  I as mainly a bomber guy like to watch how a true escort flys...deflecting attacks, putting themselves between attacking fighters as a buffer knowing they are giving the enemy the advantage.  In desperation even giving up your six to tempt the bad guys away from bombers...in these moments fighter guys get to feel what its like to be a bomber (hopelessly stuck to your mission!).  Hope for a mistake and try to drag them to your wingman for some hot lead.  Manu is very strict about maintaining the cover for his flights, and to this the bomber flights always look forward.  2 weeks ago he flew over 6 enemy fighters, he having a distinct height advantage.  Rather than give up his escort for what could have been a glorious battle, he buffered us from the flight and we all made it too target without a scratch.  On our return not so lucky. Pez you were there for that one also...2 110's, 3 JU88's  and 2 109s vs 3 yaks and a Lagg I believe.   

[Trooper117]

Forgot to say, the filming was pretty good too... it had the ability to portray the story with good and varied camera positions... it kept me interested the whole way through.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Interesting thread, p3zman, thanks for sharing that nice video

 

 

Notes I've made:

 

That first Bf-109 was flying a clean straight line, and from what I've seen it was far away from its wingman as well. I have a habit of conducting escort flights weaving unless we are very low on fuel, and even then there's at least some movement to avoid being caught by surprise as it happened then. Generally speaking the positioning there had a lot of space for the enemy to play with - the Bf-109s are too far apart from each other to provide mutual assistance, while also being too far away from the Ju-88s to cover them from a fast enemy. Creating a tightly-knit 'no-fly zone' close to the bombers would have made the situation more manageable, perhaps.

 

0:58 - Yak-1 got distracted by the possibility of making that kill and overshot the Bf-109. Since you had a speed advantage, you could have gone for a shallow high yo-yo without breaking so hard to keep your nose on the target, which caused you to lose some speed.

5:51 - Minor, perhaps even down to preference. Once you made that pass on the Ju-88, you opted for a chandelle break. I'm partial to leveling the wings and doing a zoom climb to get as much altitude as possible then descend onto the enemy.

6:50 - Firing from far, far away. Would have saved the ammo.

9:05 - Need For Speed: Stalingrad Drift Kings

9:20 - Manu's mistake here in my opinion was going for the reversal so soon with P3zman in close pursuit, offering a steady planiform shot from a decent range. Perhaps if the Bf-109 had ridden that climb all the way up with whatever power was available, adding a slight horizontal element just to make gunnery trickier, P3zman would have either stalled out or refused to climb along. Either of these options would have allowed Manu to dive and quickly gain speed while also getting into a firing position.

9:50 - This is something that caused me a lot of frustration in the old Il-2. I would also go for that nice chandelle Manu entered, but the enemy would always get their nose at me and pew-pew, there I go on fire. While it looks and feels sound when you're at it, the enemy is sitting in the middle of the circle and while they're close to stall speed, it's easy for them to point the nose straight at you because you are flying lazy slow circles around them without changing the distance too much. If you put the enemy into that position while making a chandelle, here's what I learned after doing the same mistake for years: turn the other way and get some distance from them. They will be stalling or lowering their nose to avoid a stall while you are leveling out, regaining combat speed and setting up a good position to attack from above. I clearly remember a drawing of this situation on my first simming notebook with the caption "turn away from the danger" in this specific situation. Worth a try, and it could perhaps have given Manu the kill instead.

 

Overall, both pilots fought extremely well. The Yak-1 did good use of both horizontal and vertical planes of manoeuvring, while the Bf-109 also flew sharply on both and without hesitation. If you'd ask me - and I am no expert so don't ask me - the two last points were the defining factors here. These were moves made by Manu from a position of advantage but which allowed the enemy to get two short bursts, and these sent him home damaged.

It is of utmost importance to note that these details happened nine minutes into the engagement. After a while in a close fight, it starts transitioning from pure tactics into endurance. Your hands start sweating, your arms ache, your breath gets heavy and that's when the minor slips come in and send you packing.

 

Now, from a mission perspective, Manu did a great job since P3zman was wholly concerned by him and had to let the Ju-88s slip away. When protecting bombers even putting yourself in the line of fire is a valid technique so long as it allows the bomber and attack pilots through. Their mission becomes your mission, and if they don't bomb their target and don't come back home, it's on you.

[seafireliv]

Good stuff to view. Will make notes. I will get revenge next time.

Edited April 18, 2016 by seafireliv

[Gump]

you (yak) say that your priority was the bomber but, it appears, that your strategy was to dogfight the (109) fighter escorts. i'd say the escorts won this one, as they distracted you from the real threat to your team - the bomber(s) who, apparently, continued on unscathed and accomplished their goal.

.... from the video, it looks like you had at least two opportunities to get good shots into the bombers, but your trajectories were obviously set to attack the fighter and the bomber wasnt touched. i would suggest that evading the fighter, while attempting to stop the bomber, would have looked much different than that. i dont think its expedient to try and clear the escorts before targeting the bombers, especially if there's only 1 escort left and there are potential clear trajectories for attacking the bomber AND evading the escort.

.

you scored the hits, but it was according to the enemy's plan - they won that battle.

.

it was fun watching the dogfight, though. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Gump

[ACG_pezman]

you (yak) say that your priority was the bomber but, it appears, that your strategy was to dogfight the (109) fighter escorts. i'd say the escorts won this one, as they distracted you from the real threat to your team - the bomber(s) who, apparently, continued on unscathed and accomplished their goal.

.... from the video, it looks like you had at least two opportunities to get good shots into the bombers, but your trajectories were obviously set to attack the fighter and the bomber wasnt touched. i would suggest that evading the fighter, while attempting to stop the bomber, would have looked much different than that. i dont think its expedient to try and clear the escorts before targeting the bombers, especially if there's only 1 escort left and there are potential clear trajectories for attacking the bomber AND evading the escort.

.

you scored the hits, but it was according to the enemy's plan - they won that battle.

.

it was fun watching the dogfight, though.

Yes sir you are right. Spot on to be exact, which is why this is a testament to the LW pilots flying against me. They accomplished their mission and I didn't.

 

Now for the minutia: I wasn't going to allow them to shoot me down, which is why I engaged. When Manu posed a serious threat to me I always engaged. When he would try to lead me away I would go back to (attempt) attacking the bombers.

 

Also, I would like to say that despite making hits on Manu and damaging him, I did not shoot him or his partner down. I was only able to make them less combat effective and drive them back to their base.

[SC_Manu653]

I was very lucky to bring it back home, I would say that technically it was a kill because I was now useless. At this point since P3zman wasn't vectored directly toward the bombers, his mission was a fighter sweep at this point. So whatever he shot or disable a bomber or a fighter is mission is accomplished. Should be different like Gump said if the bomber was your primary objective. 

[ACG_pezman]

9:05 - Need For Speed: Stalingrad Drift Kings

 

I see you noticed that too.  I actually credit that as the point where I gained the advantage.

 

Being that we were both so very low on energy I knew that if I dumped it at the top Manu wouldn't possibly be able to turn tight enough to get back on the offensive.  If he had tried to turn back around onto my 6 o'clock and continue the maneuvering, well... you saw how fast that Yak's nose turned at the top of that climb.  I would have been able to get on his 6 o'clock with co-energy or better in a matter of seconds.  Instead he chose the only option he could - extend away from the fight.  However, we were both still very low on energy and I gambled that I would be able to gather enough speed to either successfully thwart is next attack or stalemate the fight.  When Manu started to climb earlier than I had expected it was a lucky break for me.  I was able to gain an offensive position and maintain it for the rest of the engagement.

 

But if nothing else, that move looked really cool from that camera angle.

[SC_Manu653]

Very nice movie ! Love it and I'm afraid to do some because everytime I record my game crash. So in multiplayer I didn't.

When someone do some like Coconut by exemple or you I appreciate very much thanks. And to take the time to analyse it with the community show us that you are a guy who is a serious one  !

[curiousGamblerr]

First of all, a case study featuring two of SNBF's best pilots only serves to make me more jealous I had to miss this week! It's been a long few days traveling and I can't wait to get at the stick tomorrow.

 

As far as the engagement, the big takeaway I have was when p3zman dropped his flaps to stick with Manu and get the crucial shot to send him away smoking. I think I give up too easily in those situations, just assuming a 109 will out climb me and I'll end up dead, especially in a left hand turn. Lucas, I appreciate your comments on that situation as well. I may have given up some good chances in the past!

 

Anyway, great video and awesome idea- I would love to see more of these threads so we can all continue learn from each other!

[PeterZvan]

The fight for the 109 was lost from 6:21 to 6:31 -> 6:27 to 6:28 to be more exact. This continuation of roll and continuation of the dive is what gave all the altitude energy away and the Yak suddenly had the height and also quite good speed - if the dogfight in the vertical continues from a situation like this the 109 will loose as the Yak does have better energy conservation and tighter turns + the flaps safety at the slow / tight bits.

 

At 6:27 the 109 should not have rolled and tried to follow to get another shot, but rather leveled up and away from the Yak and continued to climb - the energy state would than be at least equal to the start of the engagement => the 109 would have much more energy than the Yak which had to drop energy to avoid getting shot and was now droping altitude.

From here on if the 109 goes immidiatly into a tight climb to go after the Yak, than the Yak can go from a dive into a tight climb and get a shot - because of the tighter turning radius - or if missed / avoided than the energy states will change again - the 109 lossing advantage.

Therefore the way to go in the 109 is to continue the climb away from the Yak and getting back into a good position above the Yak. Here with the 109G one needs the patience for this.

If it was an F4, than the 109 could be more agresive, however by no way should the mistake at 6:27 be done.

If I was the Yak, than I would go about it in a simmilar way as done in this case, however I would have made a more shot orientated pass at the Ju-88 (less deflection) to give it at least a few leaks. Probably also going at another pass at the Ju with high speed and a dive to make the 109 follow me at speed -> getting a simmilar E state at the point where he would get a posibility for a shot - this would make the following fight happen at a more simmilar E state and more advantagus for the Yak for the continuation of the fight.

Edited April 19, 2016 by PeterZvan

[StG2_Manfred]

This video is really nicely edited 71st_AH_p3zman 

Edited April 19, 2016 by StG2_Manfred

[ACG_pezman]

First of all, a case study featuring two of SNBF's best pilots only serves to make me more jealous I had to miss this week! It's been a long few days traveling and I can't wait to get at the stick tomorrow.

 

As far as the engagement, the big takeaway I have was when p3zman dropped his flaps to stick with Manu and get the crucial shot to send him away smoking. I think I give up too easily in those situations, just assuming a 109 will out climb me and I'll end up dead, especially in a left hand turn. Lucas, I appreciate your comments on that situation as well. I may have given up some good chances in the past!

 

Anyway, great video and awesome idea- I would love to see more of these threads so we can all continue learn from each other!

Yes, but at what point was that advantage gained to make that shot?  Moments before I made that shot Manu and I were face to face in the vertical scissor passes.  On the last pass we made I dumped all my energy to achieve what?  The energy states we both had after that maneuver were both low, him higher than me obviously (which is usually a deadly mistake), so how was the offensive taken?

 

The fight for the 109 was lost from 6:21 to 6:31 -> 6:27 to 6:28 to be more exact. This continuation of roll and continuation of the dive is what gave all the altitude energy away and the Yak suddenly had the height and also quite good speed - if the dogfight in the vertical continues from a situation like this the 109 will loose as the Yak does have better energy conservation and tighter turns + the flaps safety at the slow / tight bits.

 

At 6:27 the 109 should not have rolled and tried to follow to get another shot, but rather leveled up and away from the Yak and continued to climb - the energy state would than be at least equal to the start of the engagement => the 109 would have much more energy than the Yak which had to drop energy to avoid getting shot and was now droping altitude.

From here on if the 109 goes immidiatly into a tight climb to go after the Yak, than the Yak can go from a dive into a tight climb and get a shot - because of the tighter turning radius - or if missed / avoided than the energy states will change again - the 109 lossing advantage.

Therefore the way to go in the 109 is to continue the climb away from the Yak and getting back into a good position above the Yak. Here with the 109G one needs the patience for this.

If it was an F4, than the 109 could be more agresive, however by no way should the mistake at 6:27 be done.

If I was the Yak, than I would go about it in a simmilar way as done in this case, however I would have made a more shot orientated pass at the Ju-88 (less deflection) to give it at least a few leaks. Probably also going at another pass at the Ju with high speed and a dive to make the 109 follow me at speed -> getting a simmilar E state at the point where he would get a posibility for a shot - this would make the following fight happen at a more simmilar E state and more advantagus for the Yak for the continuation of the fight.

Yes, there were key points that the 109 committed to attacks when extending and exacerbating the performance differences would have put him in a more advantageous position.  However I also know that the 109 can be a lethal and agile opponent that can take you by surprise.  All in all I was of the impression that he was actually gaining an energy advantage on me in the vertical scissoring we were doing moments before he took damage.  In the previous two passes our aircraft were further apart, by the third pass he nearly had a gun solution on me.  I figured if we kept going at that pace I would be dead on the next pass because he could gain more energy in the dives than I could.  I was able, however, to reduce the amount of time that the nose of the aircraft flips over, greatly reducing the time he had to extend after a pass.  This forced both him (and I) into a much lower energy state that usual for this type of engagement.  A great example of how fast I was able to flip the nose over is at 9:02 in the video, my aircrafts nose is point earthward even as the aircraft is still climbing vertically.  Kind of like that Cobra move the Russian air force acrobatic team does at airshows.

 

You're right about how I really should have tried to attack that Ju-88 more, but I had a reasonable expectation that I was engaging with Manu and, well, I was more cautious in attempting to keep him off my six.  Manu has a bad habit of killing you if you let him.  As I am starting to realize, I didn't intend on really engaging the Ju-88's it seems, I was more into using them to keep Manu plying by my terms.  I can't catch him in level flight, a climb, or a dive, but I can make sure he doesn't get away by attacking his precious bombers and forcing him to engage me.  Maybe this would lead to an opening for me to engage him. 

 

This video is really nicely edited 71st_AH_p3zman 

Thanks Manfred, it took me about 13 hours to make this 11 minute video.  It wouldn't have taken me that long but I was having some real annoying issues with NVidia shadow play.  I ended up switching to MSI afterburner for the recordings, which sucked, because using my Thrustmaster T.A.R.G.E.T. software actually corrupted the original footage I took.  I wish I knew that before I recorded all my footage