We are talking to a WW2 P-51 pilot today

[NachtJaeger110]

I didn't mean the volume, more the character and the tune of the 50s in the BoM P40. There is a strange whistling that I just never heard from a real gun..

 

Most of you know this video:

 

I am aware of it that videos never sound like the real thing, but I heard a real M2 and I just can't imagine how they came up with the sound the 50s in the sim are making, both internally from the cockpit and externally.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Thanks for giving us the opportunity, Emil!

 

Here's one: if it's not too complicated, what were in your opinion the most effective tactics the Luftwaffe employed during intercept missions, and what were the best ways the escorts found to deal with them?

 

OK here's the full answer to the question. We already asked how hard or easy it was to spot the enemy fighters and his answer was that single aircraft were hard to spot but that when he was flying over Germany the LW would put up large groups of fighters often 150-200 109s and 100-150 190s so it wasn't too hard to spot them.

 

I asked: What was the most effective tactics that the LW used and how did you counter them. You mentioned that they would send the groups of 109s in first to perform a slashing attack and to try to draw off the fighters and the the 190s would come down afterwards.

 

Joe replied: For the conventional aircraft I thought this was the most effective tactic. I'm sure the Germans were under the same restraints we were [i.e. they had to stick to their mission]....I mean I'm sure the German pilots interests were to increase their score but their primary job was to protect the homeland and shooting bombers down, getting the hell out of there and being able to come back to shoot more down. So I think from their point of view and from our point of view that tactic was the best used. An incidentally that tactic was used by the 262s....the 262s didn't hang around too long either....well except Walter Schuck [chuckled] Their tactic was to hit and run.

The 109s were to draw the American fighters down to the deck and leave the bombers unprotected and the 190s would then attack the undefended bombers....because the 190s had heavier fire power.

 

Which was the better of the 190 and 109.....he felt the long nose 190 (Dora) was almost equal to the P-51.

[Rjel]

OK here's the full answer to the question. We already asked how hard or easy it was to spot the enemy fighters and his answer was that single aircraft were hard to spot but that when he was flying over Germany the LW would put up large groups of fighters often 150-200 109s and 100-150 190s so it wasn't too hard to spot them.

I've read comments like this too. Bud Anderson made mention of large formations of German fighters in a documentary I watched. Could you ask Col. Peterburs how many times in that situation did the USAAF fighters have a numerical superiority within that same airspace? I know that total mission strength sometimes surpassed 1000-1500 fighters but not all of them were on station at the same time. Many people don't understand that part of the escort doctrine. I'd be interested in knowing if it felt to him as if they were outnumbered in those situations?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I've read comments like this too. Bud Anderson made mention of large formations of German fighters in a documentary I watched. Could you ask Col. Peterburs how many times in that situation did the USAAF fighters have a numerical superiority within that same airspace? I know that total mission strength sometimes surpassed 1000-1500 fighters but not all of them were on station at the same time. Many people don't understand that part of the escort doctrine. I'd be interested in knowing if it felt to him as if they were outnumbered in those situations?

 

He basically said that virtually the entire airforce's bombers and fighters would take off and fly together to France/Germany where they would then split up in to smaller groups to go to different targets. I will try to find the section where we talked about that. 

 

I have to admit I wasn't expecting to hear they would see so many LW fighters at one time!

[Gambit21]

An incidentally that tactic was used by the 262s....the 262s didn't hang around too long either....well except Walter Schuck [chuckled] Their tactic was to hit and run.

 

Don Bryan of the 352nd told me that he never saw a 262 fly through a bomber box without taking at least 2 bombers down.

 

Here are 2 answers to me asking about the sound of the .50's from inside the cockpit.

 

Bob "Punchy" Powell

"Actually, I do not remember 'hearing' the guns firing although I think I recall

a muffled roar. The cockpits were pretty much airtight or totally so and that is probably the reason.  However, I definitely 'felt' the guns firing, and particularly on

the Jug.  Those eight guns firing at one time had a terrific recoil and you could

feel it shake the plane.  Not so much on my B-Model (4-guns) Mustang and only

slightly more on the D-model.  The fact is that if you were concentrating on a target,

particularly when strafing, you hardly noticed the sound or recoil.  It was something you expected and therefore ignored mentally as you were busy watching where your ammo went and correcting your aim."

 

 

Don Bryan

"You could hear the 50's when you fired them. I don’t recall ever thinking they were loud. As I said, the 51B sounded like a popgun compared to the Jugs. It most likely was that whenever I fired them in combat, the sound really wasn’t important. I don’t recall vibrations but I’m sure there was some. I do know that when you puled the trigger, you slowed down some. Once when going after a 109 in my Jug, I hit compressability. (SP ?) I pulled the trigger and it knocked me out of it instantly. The pilot must have been a "new boy". I got one hit on the right wingtip but he just kept going. I think that was my 4^th."

[Gambit21]

Just looking through my research now

 

Don Bryan on head-on passes

 

"Head on passes are not a very good approach at any time against any A/C. My 1^st victory started as a head on pass. I was in the Jug and it was a FW190. I scrunched down and hoped that R2800 would serve as armor plate. Fortunately he didn’t see me and turned to the side. Makes no difference, I’d never do it if I didn’t have to regardless of the firepower."

 

 

 

28. Did you ever witness or hear about an over-exuberant wingman or fellow squadron member “fire of the shoulder” of another pilot as he was either making a kill, or about to be in position to do so, and in no other danger from surrounding AC?  “Fog of war”, a highly chaotic and fluid situation, I’d be surprised if it never happened due to as I said, over-exuberance, or just good ol fashioned target fixation.

 

 

"Yes, it happened sometimes as two planes would go for the same e/a, often

not seeing the other attacking.  If you observe a lot of combat film you will also

see a friendly plane crossing the field being strafed almost in the line of fire

of the plane from which the film came.  I have seen this numerous times.

In the heat of battle, particularly when the air battle becomes a free for all,

and you suddenly spot a vulnerable e/a, one of your buddies may be going after

him, too.  Yes, I have seen this several times, particularly when ground strafing."

 

That was Bob Powell

 

 

I have so much recorded as well - I still need to go through those interviews and make notes.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Gambit21

[Gambit21]

One thing you'll find too when you interview enough pilots, they often contradict one another, even pilots in the same squadron.

(all my pilots were 352nd except for Bud Anderson)

 

For instance, in regard to the "shooting over the shoulder" question above, here is Don Bryan's answer

 

"shared 3 kills with my wingmen. I was 1^st on in all 3 of them. I have no real objection to wingmen assisting in the action. However, they did NOT fire when I was still on the attack. Had they put me at risk by firing over my shoulder I would really kick his rump. It would probably be a cold day in hell before he flew with me again. I NEVER heard of anyone in the 352^nd doing that."

[seafireliv]

He basically said that virtually the entire airforce's bombers and fighters would take off and fly together to France/Germany where they would then split up in to smaller groups to go to different targets. I will try to find the section where we talked about that. 

 

I have to admit I wasn't expecting to hear they would see so many LW fighters at one time!

Yea. Always annoys me how sims NEVER get the number of aircraft right. Same with BOS\BOM and the original IL2.  I know the Russians faced many aircraft also in their air combats especially early on, but even later around 1944 I saw accounts where like 6 of them faced 50+ fighters.  I think only the really old European Air War and Rowan`s Battle of Britain managed it. In those sims you get a small feeling of what the pilots felt when they saw 60+ enemy aircraft before them. The question always is, `How do we take on that lot?`

Edited April 10, 2016 by seafireliv

[Rjel]

I have to admit, I envy you guys having the chance to chat with these men. So much living history lost when they leave us. I met one gentleman who'd been a B-24 gunner in the CBI. Really nice guy, very quiet and unassuming. He shared a few pictures of his plane and crew. I wish I could've met him when he was a little younger.

[Bearcat]

If anyone would like us to ask a question on your behalf post your questions here

 

He flew P-40s and P-51s and shot down a Me262

Is that Roscoe Brown?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Joe Peterburs, Bearcat.

 

But up until they mentioned Peterburs' name I was nearly sure that it was Roscoe Brown as well

 

It would be lovely to hear Brown's experiences as well.

[CUJO_1970]

I've had the privilege of speaking with Bob "Punchy" Powell and hearing some of his wartime experiences. Always great to talk to these guys in person.

[Mysticpuma]

I spoke with Art Fiedler (8 Victory Ace - P51 with 317th FS, 325th FG) and he talked about lining up on an aircraft and getting a lot of hits on it, claimed it as a probable after it disappeared into cloud. Another pilot claimed the same aircraft as his own probable, so they checked the guncam footage from both.

 

Art's showed hits on the aircraft before it went into cloud. The other pilot's guncam showed the enemy aircraft about 1000 yards ahead as he opened fire and Art's aircraft clearly visible between them as he opened fire without regard for Art. Art was fuming and the other pilot never flew a mission with him again.

 

Great to see you recorded the memories of Joe. I met him and his daughter at Camarillo in 2012 and he is a great guy.

 

Cheers, MP

[Gambit21]

He basically said that virtually the entire airforce's bombers and fighters would take off and fly together to France/Germany where they would then split up in to smaller groups to go to different targets. I will try to find the section where we talked about that. 

 

I have to admit I wasn't expecting to hear they would see so many LW fighters at one time!

 

Yeah, although those 'max effort' days where not every day/every mission

Edited April 10, 2016 by Gambit21

[BlitzPig_EL]

I remember when Art would fly on comms back in IL2 '46, when we did a few missions with Monguse's guys.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

On Engine torque

 

Me: When you said that many of the pilots were in the process of converting from the P-38 to the P-40/P-51 you said many struggled because of the torque [that they were not used to it due to the counter rotating props on the P-38] I was wondering....in a big powerful aircraft like the P-51 how much torque do you experience I mean do you find you had to really push on the rudder peddles to counter the torque.

 

Joe: "Well I don't know if this is correct but it sticks in my mind...it's been a long time...we cranked in 7 degrees [left?] on the trim on take off, that was the normal thing and that's a lot....and yes if you tried with no trim it would be very difficult for a very powerful person to hold it straight down the runways without having any trim turned in....at full throttle down the runway...it was powerful!"

 

The day I arrived at [garbled] Cliff a mission of P-51s was coming back...there was six of us in the back of the truck waiting at the end of the runway, waiting for the mission to come in....and number 4 bounced...and we all watched and we were really hesitant and were wondering what he was going to do and we heard his starting to throw the throttle forward and we all shouted no! and he threw the throttle forward and turned like a top, flipped right over and went right in" (killed I believe)

 

"I had a student in Korea I was IPing....he crashed 3 aircraft because of torque, it was a very difficult thing to do (deal with torque or land...or both) especially if you had most of your hours in an aircraft with counter rotating props...because it would come up and bite you every time....every change in engine...in speed you had to compensate for torque"

 

Me: So do you think you were quite gentle with the throttle when you advanced the throttle?

 

Joe: Oh yes....It depends....but by the time I was flying the P-51H I could hold my brakes and full throttle and let the brakes go....but I knew what I was doing and I had over 1800 [or 800] hours in the aircraft...you had to compensate....for the aircraft's characteristics and with the knowledge of what was going to happen [next]. It's not a blanket approach...but it's like combat a better pilot in an inferior aircraft can beat a pilot in a superior aircraft if he is the better pilot...and it's the same as flying."

 

Me: Did you guys do any physical training when flying these aircraft....I imagine it would be like being a race car driver and you would need to be very physically fit.

 

Joe: "Oh yes there was intense physical training....until we got to combat....and then there was non...there was no organised physical training. I don't know why [Laughed] it would have been a good idea....keep us away from the booze [laughed].

Edited April 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Me: When you were hit by ground fire...was it really obvious you had been hit by projectiles, was it loud, did you get vibrations, I was wondering what did it feel like, what did it sound like when you were hit.

 

Joe: The day I was shot down on the 10th of April strafing the airfield I had several bullets that had gone through my wings and the fusealge....the only way I knew I had them was when I looked out and saw holes. It didn't affect the performance of my aircraft and I didn't particularly...wasn't looking...but when I went on the FW-200 the Condor I felt thud and then another thud...I got hit by two...at least 20mm or 30mm cannon shells and I absolutely felt those and the engine started burning. My last transmission to my group leader was that I had oil all over my windscreen and that I had probably to head east....but I finally decided to head west." 

 

"Now in Korea the one in the prop....yes I saw a big flash when it hit the prop and there was vibration, but when I was hit in the face...I knew I was bleeding, canopy was exploded and I can a cut across my face but that was all I......that was small arms. So Yes when you were hit by something bigger than a .50 calibre like a 20 or 30mm then you knew it."

 

Me So mostly it was vibration a seat of the pants feel....With the Condor I mean could you hear anything?

 

"Well I couldn't hear the explosion but I could feel I was hit, I felt a thud. There was no vibration coming off the Condor...My engine was burning, I was manipulating the prop and mixture...there's ways you can get the best out of the engine in a situation like that....I was busy doing that and I was able to make it up to 10,000ft where I was able to [garbled best estimation] 'verify where I was...from where I was hit to where I bailed out was about 80 miles....So I was able to make it up to 10,000ft and then make another 80 miles by the time I got {burned?] fortunately my engine didn't freeze...if my engine had froze I would have to had bailed out immediately."

Edited April 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[seafireliv]

Good stuff. Fascinating about torque.

 

Not hearing being fired upon, but `feeling` the impacts makes a lot of sense too. It explains to me why some aircraft in guncam footage seemed to take ages to respond to cannon fire, often too late. Also the shake makes a good case for forcefeedback joysticks to `shake` on guns impacts from `very low` to `heavy` depending on bullet type in war simulaters.

 

My thanks to you guys and the real pilots for their words.

[LLv44_Damixu]

Thank you for sharing these stories witnessed and done by the true WW2 fighter pilots. I appreciate this a lot, thank you.

[SCG_Tzigy]

 

[Trinkof]

Many thanks Emil!

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Good Stuff Emil.

Looking forward to your full transcript or audio.

 

One can spend hours before you know it reading through these but perhaps Joe Peterburs or a squad mate has an E/A report here:  Mustang encounter reports...

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Good Stuff Emil.

Looking forward to your full transcript or audio.

 

One can spend hours before you know it reading through these but perhaps Joe Peterburs or a squad mate has an E/A report here:  Mustang encounter reports...

 

Wow that is a nice link

 

He is obviously famous for shooting down Walter Schcuk but he had a few other clashes with enemy aircraft including 190s and a Mig15

 

We're working on getting that audio fixed and then I'll do the full transcript. 

 

We tried to ask some interesting questions as well

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

Did you get a chance to ask him about what advice he had for combat pilots?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Did you get a chance to ask him about what advice he had for combat pilots?

 

Kind of yeh....we've got a sound guy on the case so we can clean up the audio which was terrible.

 

Having said that he talked a lot about training hard physically, being physically strong and knowing his stuff. That there were many pilots who didn't and met a sticky end for a number of reasons. He did also make a short comment about how governments exploit young healthy guys so they can send them off to war as cannon fodder....I appreciate that that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

 

 

He did also make a short comment about how governments exploit young healthy guys so they can send them off to war as cannon fodder....I appreciate that that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

 

Oh yes and this is what a lot of people don't appreciate between all the propaganda BS and your country pride. At the end of the day these young men were pawns on a chess table. Many servicemen say they only realised the futility and waste of it all when you experienced the reality and brutality of death up close and personal and the sickening realisation that you've been used, only to be thrown aside when you are not worth anything anymore. Such a sad waste of young men and women and their families lives.

 

Thanks Emil for the amazing content and hats off and HUGE respect to the men and women who died in service of their countries, even though in most cases it was probably all for nothing.

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

Kind of yeh....we've got a sound guy on the case so we can clean up the audio which was terrible.

 

Having said that he talked a lot about training hard physically, being physically strong and knowing his stuff. That there were many pilots who didn't and met a sticky end for a number of reasons. He did also make a short comment about how governments exploit young healthy guys so they can send them off to war as cannon fodder....I appreciate that that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

I understand the futility of war my dad flew in Vietnam,and I hope I get to avoid it honestly,I have no desires for glory just to do my job, I will go to war if I'm ordered to,like everyone else in the military,but have no desire see the horrors of it and I'm thankful I won't be on the ground.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I understand the futility of war my dad flew in Vietnam,and I hope I get to avoid it honestly,I have no desires for glory just to do my job, I will go to war if I'm ordered to,like everyone else in the military,but have no desire see the horrors of it and I'm thankful I won't be on the ground.

 

I doubt he was saying he would be against people joining the military. It just stuck in my mind, we were talking about how he felt when he was over Germany and whether he got nervous at all.....I was slightly surprised when he said "no" he then thought about it and said no again and then he made that remark....so what he was really saying was that young people fear death far less or just don't even think about it.....when he got to Korea he said that by that time he had a wife and two children so was much more conservative and careful. Honestly he sounded like he was quite fearless to me.....especially when you think he made 3-4 consecutive strafing runs on that airfield with all the ferocious flak and continued even after seeing his leader shot down.

 

He did talk about training a lot but we need to get the audio levelled out, I also asked about how physically fit they were and they were very very fit and would train a lot. It sure sounds like they took their training very seriously and they also sounded like they had very good training and by the time they got to the UK they really knew what they were doing. We should have asked how many hours they had in training before deploying overseas.

I understand the futility of war my dad flew in Vietnam,and I hope I get to avoid it honestly,I have no desires for glory just to do my job, I will go to war if I'm ordered to,like everyone else in the military,but have no desire see the horrors of it and I'm thankful I won't be on the ground.

 

He also made some interesting comments about when he was with the Russian infantry, he clearly saw some of the horrors of war and he mentioned that it was very sobering compared to being in the air but the audio was really bad at that point and I'll wait to see what can be done with the files first.

[Frequent_Flyer]

I didn't mean the volume, more the character and the tune of the 50s in the BoM P40. There is a strange whistling that I just never heard from a real gun..

 

Most of you know this video:

 

I am aware of it that videos never sound like the real thing, but I heard a real M2 and I just can't imagine how they came up with the sound the 50s in the sim are making, both internally from the cockpit and externally.

My God that is the best looking aircraft ever designed, bare metal finish really sets her off.  Those .50 sound ferocious.

[Rjel]

Careful!!!! You'll be accused of being a homer. Another Muricun..... as if we should be ashamed of that.

 

All kidding aside, to me it is the best looking WWII fighter in NMF especially. Maybe it's because I've seen so many photos of them that way but nearly any other fighter for the era just looks odd without camo or OD paint slapped on it. We simmers, real pilots and other enthusiasts have argued endlessly about how good it looked, performed and its impact on the air war. One thing is certain to me, it did the job it was asked to do. I doubt there was a single Air Force anywhere else in the world at that time that wouldn't have wanted the blend of qualities it possessed in its own fighter aircraft.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Rjel

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I doubt there was a single Air Force anywhere else in the world at that time that wouldn't have wanted the blend of qualities it possessed in its own fighter aircraft.

The Soviet Air Force brushed it off in 1942 after testing some P-51As delivered to them - probably because it had no cannon and the armament wasn't in the nose

[Rjel]

Honestly, comparing the Allison powered P-51 with the later versions is like comparing apples and oranges. Pilot reports I've read make it sound like there was little to compare the two other than general appearance.

[Elem]

It does look nice with red stars though....

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Mustang I that the VVS got from the RAF did indeed have some guns in the nose.  2 .50 Brownings mounted in the lower engine cowling firing through the propeller arc.  It also had 2 .50 Brownings in each wing.

 

As delivered to the RAF it could achieve 390mph at 20,000ft.

[Venturi]

Honestly, comparing the Allison powered P-51 with the later versions is like comparing apples and oranges. Pilot reports I've read make it sound like there was little to compare the two other than general appearance.

Lol....

 

The P51 A was lighter than the D and faster below 15,000'...

It does look nice with red stars though....

Pure sex, no doubt!

[Frequent_Flyer]

Careful!!!! You'll be accused of being a homer. Another Muricun..... as if we should be ashamed of that.

 

All kidding aside, to me it is the best looking WWII fighter in NMF especially. Maybe it's because I've seen so many photos of them that way but nearly any other fighter for the era just looks odd without camo or OD paint slapped on it. We simmers, real pilots and other enthusiasts have argued endlessly about how good it looked, performed and its impact on the air war. One thing is certain to me, it did the job it was asked to do. I doubt there was a single Air Force anywhere else in the world at that time that wouldn't have wanted the blend of qualities it possessed in its own fighter aircraft.

I have traveled extensively for my work, no better country on this planet than the US , Never ashamed to admit it. Regarding the Mustang, best looking, best performing aircraft of WW II. What gets lost in all the nonsense when the goofs whip out their  performance charts, is the US fought a strategic air war against both the Germany and  Japan in the later stages . They attacked and annilaited the war making capacity of their adversaries from high altitudes over a great distance of unfriendly territory. No better aircraft in WW II for this task. It was an engineering marvel. The Mustang weighted roughly 4,000 Lbs more, was 73 mph faster  about double the range of a the Spitfire V with the identical power plant. Range and speed were the most significant factors for a fighter aircraft, with both it dictated the terms of the engagement. While the Luftwaffe was heading back to base to refuel the P-51 dropped down from its escort duties with enough fuel to tear up ground targets on its return to base. If your interested the second best fighter of WW II was the Corsair , it could carry more ordnance then the IL-2, did not need an escort plus could fight from a carrier. Not as good looking as the Mustang, but good looking in a brutish way.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Sticking to good old Europa

 

Would pick the Tempest over the Corsair any day of the week, but again it's all about taste. I'm partial to the school of tactical fighters, I would trade all of these aircraft for the La-7. Agile, clean-looking bastard.

 

But here we are off-topic.

[Venturi]

Basically, it boils down to relative plane capability, does it not??

[Frequent_Flyer]

Sticking to good old Europa

 

Would pick the Tempest over the Corsair any day of the week, but again it's all about taste. I'm partial to the school of tactical fighters, I would trade all of these aircraft for the La-7. Agile, clean-looking bastard.

 

But here we are off-topic.

You are certainly entitled, would that be a Tempest II ?  Did the La-7 make it to Korea ?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Good old Tempest V would do. Firepower, resistant, great speed and climb rate... The La-7 is just a comfortable, fast beast, which in its La-9 and -11 iterations did in fact make it to Korea

 

Venturi put it right though - relative capacity is what it's all about. In a P-51 you are likely to be flying long-range missions in support of strategic bombers, and it was perfect for that.

 

In a Tempest you are dropping the goodies yourself, and in an La-7 while you might drop a pair of bombs here and there you are mostly flying cover for tactical attack and bomber aviation, nearly always taking off from ill-prepared fields right by the front lines, shifting from airbase from airbase as the cavalry rolls through enemy territory. In that case, protecting an attack flight that is flying at 350km/h and at 800m, you won't get much done flying at 750km/h, whereas manoeuvrability and a decent cannon armament are very important.