We are talking to a WW2 P-51 pilot today

[Rjel]

All you have to do is read the book "The Long Reach" for this.

It's compiled reports of many pilots (including George Preddy) that was put together during the war on exactly what you speak of.

Lots of info out there.

 

I have a lot of P51 pilot interviews recorded that I did while researching my book project - some gold there let me tell you.

I interviewed 6 living pilots (living at the time) from the 352nd, including Don Bryan, Alden Rigby and James Wood.

Also Bud Anderson.

 

I've read The Long Reach. It's a good as it happened kind of compilation. What is the title of your book Gambit21? I'm always looking for another good P-51 book.

[Gambit21]

 What is the title of your book Gambit21? I'm always looking for another good P-51 book.

 

It's not completed yet - will be a few years. It's a historical novel and not a P-51 book per se.

I've been working on 3D models of various aircraft (including the Mustang) recently and the writing was set aside.

Picking it back up now, but the book will be a few years out because I'm finishing another non-aviation related book project first.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Gambit21

[Rjel]

It's not completed yet - will be a few years. It's a historical novel and not a P-51 book per se.

I've been working on 3D models of various aircraft (including the Mustang) recently and the writing was set aside.

Picking it back up now, but the book will be a few years out because I'm finishing another non-aviation related book project first.

Even better. I look forward to it. GL.

[Solty]

I'm sorry I am late to the party. Hope I can ask a few questions too:

 

1. What are the main differences in flight dynamics between P-51 and P-40?

2. Which plane felt more responsive and were there any quirks to how they flew?

3. What was the stalling characteristic of the P-51 compared to more traditional airplane desings (laminar flow wing) and was it a problem during dogfights?

4. Did they knew what their enemy was capable of (reports, training etc.)?

5. What did he feel that his P-51 has an advantage in compared to his adversaries?

6. What is his favourie airplane to fly and why?

 

Thank you for this oportunity.

 

o7 S!

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'm sorry I am late to the party. Hope I can ask a few questions too:

 

1. What are the main differences in flight dynamics between P-51 and P-40?

2. Which plane felt more responsive and were there any quirks to how they flew?

3. What was the stalling characteristic of the P-51 compared to more traditional airplane desings (laminar flow wing) and was it a problem during dogfights?

4. Did they knew what their enemy was capable of (reports, training etc.)?

5. What did he feel that his P-51 has an advantage in compared to his adversaries?

6. What is his favourie airplane to fly and why?

 

Thank you for this oportunity.

 

o7 S!

 

Hi Solty

 

We will hopefully get the transcript put together at some point and I think you will find it interesting, he is a really nice guy and seemed to enjoy talking to people who understood what he was talking about.

 

We covered much of what you asked. The P-40N he loved, he described it as an aircraft that was very nice to fly and he loved it. He said that you could do any maneuver in it but then said the P-51 was a much faster aircraft and therefore better to go to war in.

 

Their briefings took around 30 minutes, we asked about how they learnt about the 262, did their commanders tell them and how did they feel about it etc.

 

He felt the P-51 was a great aircraft and loved it but that ground attack in it was very dangerous.

 

We asked many many questions I just don't have time right now to write everything down, we were on coms for 2 hours and we will do a follow up discussion in a month or so. Unfortunately his mic was broken and we were struggling to hear everything this time.

 

You can imagine transcribing two hours of conversation will take a long time....especially with my typing skills, we are going to try and find some audio software to improve the sound quality first. I am going to look for an audio expert to see if they can help out as I don't have the time for that.

 

All I can say is Joe was such a nice guy to talk to and he seemed very enthusiastic to talk about his experiences and we had two amazing hours that we will never forget.

 

I'll share what we have when I can

 

Also a very very big thanks to 6./JG5_Thijs who was the one who organised this. He knows both Joe and knew Walter Schuck, and had organised both of them to join our coms years ago when we were all flying as JG5.

Edited April 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[No601_Swallow]

Hats off, Emil and all involved. Wonderful stuff.

[Solty]

Thank you Emil. I need to work on my timing

 

 

o7

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Wow, this is really great stuff, thanks for putting this together and sharing it with the community - can't wait to read the transcript!

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Don't worry Solty we have most of what you are interested. All of our questions were on very specific things that everyone will be interested and you should get most of what you are interested about.

 

I was just trying to answer some of the questions quickly in this thread but we got very specific answers to many very interesting questions. I was very interested in the torque they experienced for example, or what did it sound/feel like to bit hit by flak.

----------------

 

P.S again if anyone knows any audio experts please get in touch

Edited April 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

P.S again if anyone knows any audio experts please get in touch

I just tried to contact my friend who is very good at that. Will report back when he gives any answer. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I just tried to contact my friend who is very good at that. Will report back when he gives any answer. 

 

Thanks!!

[Jason_Williams]

Thanks to Emil I got to listen in and ask a few questions before I had to go. Joe was very interesting and a super nice guy.

 

The take away for me was that he said small caliber bullets hitting your wings etc. don't really make a sound that can be heard in the cockpit. He said larger rounds like 20mm and 30mm are felt more than heard.

 

He also liked the P-40N a lot as it was easy to fly and maneuverable. He said combat back then was more about surprise and hit and run instead of twisty turny dogfights.

 

I asked him about shooting .50 cal. bullets and he didn't seem to think they were at a disadvantage as far as hitting power.

 

I enjoyed listening to Joe.

 

Jason

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Thanks to Emil I got to listen in and ask a few questions before I had to go. Joe was very interesting and a super nice guy.

 

The take away for me was that he said small caliber bullets hitting your wings etc. don't really make a sound that can be heard in the cockpit. He said larger rounds like 20mm and 30mm are felt more than heard.

 

He also liked the P-40N a lot as it was easy to fly and maneuverable. He said combat back then was more about surprise and hit and run instead of twisty turny dogfights.

 

I asked him about shooting .50 cal. bullets and he didn't seem to think they were at a disadvantage as far as hitting power.

 

I enjoyed listening to Joe.

 

Jason

 

It was really amazing wasn't it

 

Yep I was really curious to know about how loud a flak hit would be, or even if you could hear it. He was shot down over German, was hit in the prop by a .50 cal over Korea and also has his cockpit shattered by small arms fire and was injured.

 

Thanks for your questions and I'm glad you enjoyed it even though we had the coms issues.

 

We are still trying to process everything we were told but we will try to share what we can soon as possible.

If you read this it covers the first part of the talk which I guess he must have given many many times.

 

Once we got on to the Q&A everything really got fun though

 

http://www.goldengatewing.org/proptalk/speaker.cfm?ID=131

[=362nd_FS=Ikarus]

I'm an audio engineer. Send me a link to the file in a PM and I'll see what can be done.

 

Thanks,

Ik

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'm an audio engineer. Send me a link to the file in a PM and I'll see what can be done.

 

Thanks,

Ik

He's the man !

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'm an audio engineer. Send me a link to the file in a PM and I'll see what can be done.

 

Thanks,

Ik

 

I'll be in touch soon

[=362nd_FS=Ikarus]

Sounds good. Just make sure to send the full resolution file and don't try to compress it to mp3 or anything. Doesn't matter if the file is huge. If it's already compressed, I'll still see what I can do.

Ik

Edited April 9, 2016 by [JG2]Ikarus

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Sounds good. Just make sure to send the full resolution file and don't try to compress it to mp3 or anything. Doesn't matter if the file is huge. If it's already compressed, I'll still see what I can do.

 

Ik

 

We have two recordings both are wavs. Mine was recorded in TS and Vade recorded his in Audacity. His is 600 Meg and Mine is around 1.3 Gig.

 

I'll get you a dropbox link tomorrow.

 

Thanks

 

Emil

[seafireliv]

Ironically, actual WWII pilots don't always have the best/most accurate picture of the abilities of their aircraft vs the enemy in all cases.

Example - it might not be a great idea to turn with a 109, or go head to head with a 190. The pilots that did it and got away with it

are here to tell you it worked for them. The pilots that got killed because it wasn't a good idea are dead. I could go on.

This is very true. Which is why we mustn`t think that because one pilot says (for example) `X plane was the best turner ever!` That it actually was. he was just best able to utilise his aircraft in certain conditions this best way.

 

Still one should never disregard any real life pilot`s testimony - the trick is to get it all together and compare.

[Gambit21]

Still one should never disregard any real life pilot`s testimony - the trick is to get it all together and compare.

Yep

Edited April 10, 2016 by Gambit21

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

This is very true. Which is why we mustn`t think that because one pilot says (for example) `X plane was the best turner ever!` That it actually was. he was just best able to utilise his aircraft in certain conditions this best way.

 

Still one should never disregard any real life pilot`s testimony - the trick is to get it all together and compare.

 

Interesting point, of course these guys thought their aircraft were the best because they got them home safe....hence the X aircraft won the war type discussions. It's easy to understand that that held their planes in high regard once the conflict was over. Joe said several times that pilot skill was the main factor in combat not the aircraft, what we all don't realise is that these guys were like race car drivers, super fit and very young. Everyone is obsessed by the performance of the plane and seems to forget the pilot. You and I could have a race in identical cars but one of us would be better because we were stronger, had better reactions etc

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Listening through the files now....

 

Regarding being hit he doesn't seem to think he heard or felt when he was hit by small calibre bullets....he just saw the holes.

 

When he attacked a FW-200 on the ground and was hit by 20mm cannon fire he felt a 'thud' and then 'another thud' and knew he was hit "Absolutely felt those" and the "engine started burning"

 

Being hit by a .50 cal in Korea he saw a big flash when the round hit the prop.

 

"So yes when you were hit by something bigger than .50 cal you knew it" 

 

I asked if you could hear being hit by cannon fire I think he does not remember hearing anything....it was all 'feel'

[216th_Peterla]

Very interesting information here. Looking forward to the transcript. Good job guys.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I asked about free roam/hunting after they were cut free from the bombers

 

Their flight leaders would just go searching for rolling stock and airfields....they weren't told where to go or what to target  on their free hunting missions.

 

After Jason's questions....

 

P-40N - "I loved flying it"

 

"to me it was a large Stearman (laughed)"

 

"I could do anything in that aircraft....I could put in on a point and spin it....and if I wanted to recover in 5 and a quarter turns I could smack that thing down right and stop in 5 and a quarter turns....it was really good...and we used to dogfight with the P-51s all the time....and like I said earlier a better pilot could beat a better airplane....I did have a lot of fun beating the P-51"

Edited April 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[6./ZG26_Emil]

"anyone with a faster aircraft is dumb to try and dogfight with a slower aircraft...you're going to out maneuver them all the time"

 

"That's how it was in Korea....I had an encounter with a Mig-15 and instead of Yoyo'ing

 we tried to turn with them....unfortunately I didn't get him but by the time he realised he understood that he was running out of fuel it was too late to start yo-yoing (laughed) and he took off....short answer is yes I loved the P-40"

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Jason - "that the P-40 would handle well at low altitudes and low speeds but with increasing altitude and speeds the P-40 starts to fall behind"

 

Joe agreed and then said "I would much rather have a P-51 over Europe that a P-40 and then laughed" and so did we LOL!

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Best range to open fire.....

 

 

"I can't remember but....get in close as possible.....If you are chopping on his tail when you are firing it would be fine" LOL "There was a preferable distance"

 

hilarious and then Jason said I know I know but these are the kind of things that my customers obsess over so that's why I'm asking 

 

And Joe replied "I know I know" laughing....

 

and Joe said "Next question how many rounds do they carry [the 50 cal I guess]....I have no idea [Laughed]" clearly had that question a couple of times at air shows

 

Well it's a good job I drank all my tea because it would have been all over my monitor at that point 

 

********************

I'm off to bed now

 

Might post the odd snippet tomorrow as I listen to it again

Edited April 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[Gambit21]

I tried to pin a few pilots down (Bob Powell and Don Bryan I think) about going head to head with the 190.

Some of you remember in the old sim the ineffectiveness of the .50 cals pretty much ruled this out (never-mind the wisdom or lack thereof of going head to head anyway)

The Mustang pilots didn't fear the 30mm of the 190's since they could put so many bullets in the air, they felt they had the advantage in those encounters. Especially since

they were not saddled with Oleg's impotent .50 cals!

 

Now, take that for what it's worth. They're goal was protecting the bomber stream and disrupting the attacks of the 190's so

in any case going head to head was more or less a necessity given the job. You also can't argue with the firing rate and destructive power of those 6 Brownings.

That said, going back to my earlier point, I'm sure more than one pilot ate a bunch of 30mm and isn't here to interview and tell me that going head to head with a 190 shouldn't be

taken lightly.

[Venturi]

Jason - "that the P-40 would handle well at low altitudes and low speeds but with increasing altitude and speeds the P-40 starts to fall behind"

 

Joe agreed and then said "I would much rather have a P-51 over Europe that a P-40 and then laughed" and so did we LOL!

 

Really looking forward to the interview! Agreed with the P51 sentiment. But I'd rather have the lighter and faster P51A below 15,000', than the P51D...

 

And taking off from a dusty airfield all the time is really hard on the Merlin-engined a/c - that underside air intake!

I tried to pin a few pilots down (Bob Powell and Don Bryan I think) about going head to head with the 190.

Some of you remember in the old sim the ineffectiveness of the .50 cals pretty much ruled this out (never-mind the wisdom or lack thereof of going head to head anyway)

The Mustang pilots didn't fear the 30mm of the 190's since they could put so many bullets in the air, they felt they had the advantage in those encounters. Especially since

they were not saddled with Oleg's impotent .50 cals!

 

 

I remember reading a report done by the USAF, I believe it was immediately post war, which determined the most effective attribute of any air-to-air gun was 1. rounds per minute, and 2. muzzle velocity. IIRC this was the reason they maintained the .50s on the Sabrejet.

 

Obviously this was known to the Russians and even the Germans - in their case it was more important to have weight of fire to bring down big targets, quickly - else get shot out of the sky

Edited April 10, 2016 by Venturi

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I tried to pin a few pilots down (Bob Powell and Don Bryan I think) about going head to head with the 190.

Some of you remember in the old sim the ineffectiveness of the .50 cals pretty much ruled this out (never-mind the wisdom or lack thereof of going head to head anyway)

The Mustang pilots didn't fear the 30mm of the 190's since they could put so many bullets in the air, they felt they had the advantage in those encounters. Especially since

they were not saddled with Oleg's impotent .50 cals!

 

Now, take that for what it's worth. They're goal was protecting the bomber stream and disrupting the attacks of the 190's so

in any case going head to head was more or less a necessity given the job. You also can't argue with the firing rate and destructive power of those 6 Brownings.

That said, going back to my earlier point, I'm sure more than one pilot ate a bunch of 30mm and isn't here to interview and tell me that going head to head with a 190 shouldn't be

taken lightly.

 

 

They were escorting about 1400 B-17s to targets in the Berlin area, when the armada was hit by about 150-200 Me-109s and Fw-190s. Peterburs says a common tactic was for the Luftwaffe to send Me-109s flying through the formation, expecting the escort fighters to chase them and leaving the bombers as prey for the Focke Wulfs. On this day, the activity turned into a melee.

"Engines were falling. Parachutes were in the air. Wings were flapping down and it seemed the debris in the air seemed to be more dangerous than the enemy fighters.

"I spotted a 190 coming right at me and I gave him the ‘chicken’ approach. We were head-on, and we both started firing. I could see the guns blinking on his bird and he could see them blinking on mine, I’m sure. I saw some hits and we came within 15-20 feet of each other - - I went underneath and he went over the top.

"Fortunately, my flight leader, Captain Fruechtenicht was in a position… he wasn’t able to fire because I was in the way. He was on the guy’s tail and as soon as I passed under him, he gave a blast and he got him. I got a ‘damaged’ on it and he got the kill.

[seafireliv]

Excellent stuff. I`ve listened to old war guys in the past. I`ve always listened attentively even as a kid. You`d never find me saying, `Oh that was a long time, ago, grandad! I`m bored!` I have total respect for these brave men. I`d give pretty much anything to be as lucky as you guys to hear a real ww2 pilot 1st hand experience.

Edited April 10, 2016 by seafireliv

[Solty]

 

They were escorting about 1400 B-17s to targets in the Berlin area, when the armada was hit by about 150-200 Me-109s and Fw-190s. Peterburs says a common tactic was for the Luftwaffe to send Me-109s flying through the formation, expecting the escort fighters to chase them and leaving the bombers as prey for the Focke Wulfs. On this day, the activity turned into a melee.

"Engines were falling. Parachutes were in the air. Wings were flapping down and it seemed the debris in the air seemed to be more dangerous than the enemy fighters.

"I spotted a 190 coming right at me and I gave him the ‘chicken’ approach. We were head-on, and we both started firing. I could see the guns blinking on his bird and he could see them blinking on mine, I’m sure. I saw some hits and we came within 15-20 feet of each other - - I went underneath and he went over the top.

"Fortunately, my flight leader, Captain Fruechtenicht was in a position… he wasn’t able to fire because I was in the way. He was on the guy’s tail and as soon as I passed under him, he gave a blast and he got him. I got a ‘damaged’ on it and he got the kill.

 

It is from here right?

http://www.goldengatewing.org/proptalk/speaker.cfm?ID=131

[6./ZG26_Emil]

It is from here right?

http://www.goldengatewing.org/proptalk/speaker.cfm?ID=131

 

Yes sorry I thought I posted that link.

 

So the first 30 minutes Joe gave his talk, one that he has probably given many times which covered all the main events of his career and you can get all of that from that link. It's obviously a condensed summary of his career and one that lasted 30+ years.

 

The next 1 1/2 hours was a Q&A session where we just asked questions or asked him to expand on certain things we were interested, like what was the torque like in an aircraft in the P-51, how did you spot enemy aircraft, what were the pre-flight briefings like, how fierce was the flak over the airfields they strafed etc and obviously what did he think about the P-40

 

If we get an opportunity to do a follow up we can just focus on more specific things and spend more time thinking about our questions. I think we were all a bit nervous and forgot to ask some questions but he was very patient and enthusiastic. When he first started talking I found it quite surreal, at first it was a bit like I was just watching a documentary on youtube or the history channel....and then when he started talking about his experiences over German it really sank in that we were talking to someone who had experienced some quite shocking events. 

 

As you can see in the link he witnessed Walter Schuck destroy the last two of Schucks 4 B-17 kills he made that day. I guess as flight sim fans we are all interested in the air combat but I can't even imagine how it must feel to see those big bombers full of young men blown apart in mid air....obviously we didn't questions like this, everyone was rightly very respectful.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Excellent stuff. I`ve listened to old war guys in the past. I`ve always listened attentively even as a kid. You`d never find me saying, `Oh that was a long time, ago, grandad! I`m bored!` I have total respect for these brave men. I`d give pretty much anything to be as lucky as you guys to hear a real ww2 pilot 1st hand experience.

 

Absolutely. I've always been the same. Even for people who are not interested they should still have the common courtesy to listen if grandad wants to tell his stories but not everyone is like that. 

 

My wife's grandfather served in France in the RAF, has just finished building his RDF station when he was told to blow it up as "the Germans were coming", they had to get out of France sharpish. He then went on to be posted in Scotland where he was involved in relaying radio messages from the Navy who were involved in an action with one of the German battleships (I cannot remember which). Later he went to Singapore and was on an airfield that was over run by Japanese paratroops. He got out of Singapore by the skin of his teeth but his stories were fascinating and I always took the opportunity to ask him questions and listen when he wanted to talk.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Later he went to Singapore and was on an airfield that was over run by Japanese paratroops. He got out of Singapore by the skin of his teeth but his stories were fascinating and I always took the opportunity to ask him questions and listen when he wanted to talk.

This sounds like something I could spend evening listening to. Singapore  

[6./ZG26_Emil]

This sounds like something I could spend evening listening to. Singapore

 

Sadly he has passed away now but I will take to my brother in law as I think he did some research on him.

 

I can tell you that at first they saw the planes and he thought they were DC-3s until the parachutes started opening above them. Within minutes there were Japanese troops landing all around them, his description was horrific and didn't pull any punches when he talked about how they were gunning them down while they were hanging in the trees...nasty stuff.

 

He had a runner who he sent back and forth to the command post for orders and the last time he came back he said "they've all gone!" so he got his lads together and they got out of dodge...I believe they managed to get on the very last ship out of Singapore before it fell.

 

Incidentally he was quite well known amongst historians and societies who were interested in the life of TE Laurence (Laurence of Arabia) as he knew him and served with him in Palestine iirc.

 

I'll see what I can dig up when I can

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'll see what I can dig up when I can

Sure Emil, thank you very much 

[NachtJaeger110]

Probably too late now, but I would like to hear his opinion about the sound of the 50 cals in our P40... I still find them very much underwhelming.

[Saurer]

Probably too late now, but I would like to hear his opinion about the sound of the 50 cals in our P40... I still find them very much underwhelming.

 

I stood 1m away from a Browning M2 firing and the sound wasn't that impressive, I can't imagine it beeing very loud in the Cockpit honestly.

 

The 7.62mm MG 74 was quiet a bit louder and more agressive sounding

Edited April 10, 2016 by Saurer

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Probably too late now, but I would like to hear his opinion about the sound of the 50 cals in our P40... I still find them very much underwhelming.

 

I stood 1m away from a Browning M2 firing and the sound wasn't that impressive, I can't imagine it beeing very loud in the Cockpit honestly.

 

The 7.62mm MG 74 was quiet a bit louder and more agressive sounding

 

I'm not even sure you would hear anything over the sound of the engine and wearing a headset etc.

 

Note the same question but I did specifically ask whether he could heard or feel anything when he was hit by the larger flak rounds, (I think they were 20mm although he said 30mm) and they exploded in his wing. Anyway he said he didn't hear them but he sure felt it. He also said he didn't even notice mg rounds hitting his plane, he just saw a few holes when he looked at his wing.

 

If we get the chance I will ask that question.

Edited April 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil