How do YOU fly the 190.............NOT an FM discussion.

[Wulf]

Well, when they compared the A-2 to the F-4, it's not like they were extremely impressed by the A-2 and the plane was already in mass production by then. The engine (and with that the whole plane) was considered unreliable and inferior in areas like climb performance. Main advantages were better armament, sturdier airframe, lighter controls, faster rollrate. Of course we have the A-3 with better engine, but it's not like that outclassed the 109 either.

 

The 190 was not meant to completely replace the 109. 

 

 

Yes, but the RLM's design spec (i.e. the one the 190 was intended to fill)  wasn't for a stable mate for the 109, was it.  It was for a replacement.  As far as the RLM was concerned, the 190 was expected to replace the 109 over time.  And furthermore, the armament on the pre-production prototypes and even the A-1 was essentially composed of machine guns, not cannon.  The heavy armament everyone goes on about didn't even exist on the fighter when it was being evaluated.  The heavy cannon came later.  And again, it seems a little unusual to take the step of placing an aircraft in full production without having a very good understanding of it's flight characteristics, particularly as those characteristics compare with an existing type, in fact, the very type it was intended to replace.   And lets not forget, these flight characteristics were said, by 1941, to have completely out-class the Mk V Spitfire (except in turn) and be on a par, with the new stop-gap Mk IX Spitfire.  It's also interesting that the RAF claimed that it was the 190 that ran them out of France in '41-42, not the Bf 109 which our experience tells us was by far the more capable fighter.  And although the 190 did have engine teething problems, even after its combat debut, they were certainly no more pronounced than those of the Soviet fighters in met over Russia in '41-'42.   So yeah, weird.

 

I just wonder if maybe the RAF really got it wrong.  I mean sure, they'd been fighting the Luftwaffe since '39 but maybe they just couldn't take it anymore and lost their nerve over France for some reason or maybe it was, in fact, the 109 F series that they were actually afraid of (which they'd been fighting since the end of the BoB) but for propaganda reasons they thought hey, let's say it's really the 190 we're concerned about so the Germans would get all F'd-up and head off down a blind alley.

 

So yeah, I'm just trying to think out of the square here for the moment to try and get my head around this.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Wulf

[MadisonV44]

As I mentioned in the FM section, I made tests with a comrade Yak vs Focke co-energy. The Focke could not dive away nor climb away nor run away in level flight, so your statement for the Focke is not correct.

 

I'm ready to repeat those tests with you if you want.

 

I noticed that it's now quite difficult or even impossible to outrun a Yak at sea level. The FW seems to degrade it's energy much quicker than before.

It is not in phase with the reputation the butcherbird had in my mind (other sim experiences and readings).

Just  a personal feeling, not a debate to state if the fact is wrong or right ...    

Edited April 14, 2016 by MadisonV44

[Turban]

Every single FW I have shot down made very basic mistakes. I couldn't have done it otherwise. The FW is superior in too many ways.

They made mistakes because they thought they were invincible. They fly a FW so they think you shouldn't be able to touch them no matter what.

 

I feel bad shooting down FW, because I know that instead of looking at their own mistakes, they'll complain about the FM.

 

Truth is, most people would need a F15 to be as untouchable as they think they should be. And even then... they might say it underperforms...

 

It's pretty irritating to read "facts" that are completely made up with only one purpose, to create a general feeling that the FW is no good.

 

 

Sadly the good FW pilots aren't as vocal as the bad ones.

[Irgendjemand]

sissor

Dude its "Scissor".

Please do me the favor and try online against one of our just decent YAK pilots, you in an FW. I am sure i will have a good laugh seeing how you try to "sissor" and fall out of the sky after 4-5 banks:P

Every single FW I have shot down made very basic mistakes. I couldn't have done it otherwise. The FW is superior in too many ways.

 

They made mistakes because they thought they were invincible. They fly a FW so they think you shouldn't be able to touch them no matter what.

 

I feel bad shooting down FW, because I know that instead of looking at their own mistakes, they'll complain about the FM.

 

Truth is, most people would need a F15 to be as untouchable as they think they should be. And even then... they might say it underperforms...

 

It's pretty irritating to read "facts" that are completely made up with only one purpose, to create a general feeling that the FW is no good.

 

 

Sadly the good FW pilots aren't as vocal as the bad ones.

And you please too. Get into an FW and fight against a decent YAK pilot in a duel. Please. Another good laugh is always welcome.

 

And btw. Not shooting down broken planes should make you feel bad but rather being succesful in a virtual plane that practically takes NO SKILL to be successful in:P

AKA - YAK-1

Edited April 14, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Turban]

Not everyone lives in your perfect world.

 

If you buy a new car and you notice there's only 3 wheels, i guess you will tell you "must be normal, i have to learn to drive with my car in his current state" ?

 

 

I don't see the problem with the FW having three wheels, it's the historical number.

 

And it's a great plane, if you follow the manual. Some people just never read the manual, then complain about the product being broken.

 

 

Saying the FW is like a car with three wheels is really silly  

 

And yes, you have to learn to fly the FW. Just like every other plane. No, it's not gonna make you invincible without any kind of learning on your side. The FW is a plane not a magic trick.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Turban

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Dude its "Scissor".

Please do me the favor and try online against one of our just decent YAK pilots, you in an FW. I am sure i will have a good laugh seeing how you try to "sissor" and fall out of the sky after 4-5 banks:P

 

And you please too. Get into an FW and fight against a decent YAK pilot in a duel. Please. Another good laugh is always welcome.

 

And btw. Not shooting down broken planes should make you feel bad but rather being succesful in a virtual plane that practically takes NO SKILL to be successful in:P

AKA - YAK-1

Glad you gave me the platform. Last time I flew the 190 two yaks jumped on my 6. After a long scissor fight (thanks sp ), I split one in half and my wingman damaged the other for me to clean up the mess. These two yaks are good pilots that regularly score high kills in wol. I don't even fly it that much. Instead of bitching. Learn to fly the plane.

 

 

As you can see I mostly fly the best russian fighter (no joke) the Lagg.  I had two flights with the 190 because the teams were out numbered.  I always flew the 190 in 1946.  The principles are the same.    

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sorties/2603/12.OIAE_Snake9/?tour=8

Edited April 14, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Snake9

[Ace_Pilto]

I just wonder if maybe the RAF really got it wrong.  I mean sure, they'd been fighting the Luftwaffe since '39 but maybe they just couldn't take it anymore and lost their nerve over France for some reason or maybe it was, in fact, the 109 F series that they were actually afraid of (which they'd been fighting since the end of the BoB) but for propaganda reasons they thought hey, let's say it's really the 190 we're concerned about so the Germans would get all F'd-up and head off down a blind alley.

 

 

Well, the RAF weren't playing air quake at 3,000 meters where you get a free respawn when you die, they were up against two expert Jagdgruppen who had to stack every advantage they could in their favour since the rest of the Luftwaffe was off pummeling Russia. (I think JG 1 and JG 26 were the two units left behind in the west) Since the RAF changed its' tactical doctrine to one of offense in 1941, the German Jagdgruppen were pretty much at liberty to choose where and when they wanted to attack. This meant a lot of low-mid-level attacking for the RAF and this basically gave Germans the luxury of choosing when and where they wanted to intercept them so they usually concentrated their force and attacked when they had the advantage of height and position. Obviously height played a key part here and this contest pushed the operating altitudes higher and higher to where the 190 has a clear advantage over the Spit Mk V. (And the lol Hurricane) In order to combat this the RAF adopted the "Beehive" method for dealing with this where they basically stacked formations of fighters around a small group of bombers to lure the Jagdgruppen into a fight where they had a numerical disadvantage. The bombers came in at around 15,000ft typically (since they needed to be that low to hit anything smaller than a large city, no Norden bombsight in those days) and formations of fighters were stacked at various altitudes from 15-35,000 ft to protect them. 

 

Obviously this kind of shin-dig was hard to organize. You can't expect massed squadrons of RAF fighters operation from various bases in varying weather to run a sortie like this and have everything go like clockwork. There were inevitable gaps, formation isolated from the main force, bombers that got lost, people having to turn back because the winds meant they burned more fuel etc etc. The Luftwaffe typically probed for just those kids of weaknesses and capitalized on them. Sure, there were probably situations where they were caught off guard also but you can see how they were in a favourable situation. They were operating from a much stronger position with better performing aircraft, more coherent tactics and more experienced leaders so the 190 would have seemed like a very big problem to the RAF who were on the back foot fighting it in almost every regard. The situation in Russia was totally different, the Luftwaffe were forced to play an attacking role and they didn't have the opportunity to use their Jagdgruppen with the finesse that was achievable in the West. They were torn out of their preferred tactical role and thrown in willy-nilly in a slugging match against an opponent who just cranked up the production line and stamped out another 20 el-cheapo wooden planes for every one they lost. 

 

Remember also, and most importantly, that the Luftwaffe weren't suicidal egoists like us who wanted to press every engagement to the bloody end. If things didn't look good for them they just flew away, especially in the West they were specifically ordered to be careful due to the limited number of aircraft that they had available. They didn't need to prove themselves on some virtual scoreboard or unlock fancy paint schemes and so you should see why the Fw-190 is perfectly set up over the Spitfire Mk V in this regard.

[BlitzPig_EL]

No aircraft from any country in WW2 had a big red WIN button on the control panel that you could push and magically get out of whatever trouble you got into.

Yet somehow I feel that is what the fans of controversial sim planes, like the 190 in this sim, and the P 51 in IL2/46 are/were constantly asking for.

 

Do you really think that if you are co altitude and co E (how you would know you are at equal energy is beyond me as there is no way to quantify that), that simply by pushing the throttle forward all the way and putting the nose down will instantly teleport you out of harms way?  It sure sounds like that is what many of you are really asking for here.

 

The historical accounts are full of faster, better armed, stronger aircraft being shot down by lighter, slower, more poorly armed opponents.  P 47s being bagged by Ki 43s, Corsairs being shot down by Zekes, Spits falling victim to Mc 200s, etc...

 

The issue is that we as sim pilots have no fear for our lives, we have MONSTER egos, and no matter how big your monitor or how good your TiR settings are, we do not have situational awareness of real pilots in real planes.  Yet we think because we have the "better" plane we should always win, even if we are the lessor pilot.

 

It doesn't work that way.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Got my butt handed to me today by KVL, ~S. But as others have stated it was mostly due to my tactical mistakes and the last one was even due to ego which preceded the tactical mistake (effit, I'll take the head on - stupid, stupid, stupid). On the other hand I cleaned house as part of a dedicated flight using coordinated attacks on comms this week.

 

So the question remains, What do you DO to find success in the Fw as she is presented in game. NOT an FM or ego discussion. In game tactics and how they compare to the real world are fair play as this is the heart of the matter.

 

There is some good info here. It is a good place for people struggling with her to gain some knowledge. Try not to derail it for the second time this week.

Edited April 14, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Ace_Pilto]

Sadly the good FW pilots aren't as vocal as the bad ones.

 

ZeHairy has some pretty good videos of him showing off in the Fw-190, I'd look at them if I were you. Although I'd stick to more conservative tactics until you know the flight model well enough to try the kind of things he does. 

 

Setting up the control curves is important in the 190, add some "S" curve to the elevator and rudder to decrease the initial sensitivity or you'll be wobbling and flopping all over the place. Defensively, you can out-maneuver any Russian plane into an overshoot pretty easily so long as you aren't caught low and slow. If you are caught low and slow then you're a prize tit and you deserve what's coming to you.

 

The timing and technique of dogfights differs in the 190 to more traditional horizontal, one circle noobfighting, you're not reaching for the flaps and pulling that extra 5 degrees of alpha for an angle to shoot in the 190 so much as you're looking for opportunities to gain an energy (height or speed) advantage. You can reverse into a turn or change the 3 dimensional plane of a fight a lot quicker but you can't pull as hard on the stick without losing all of your airspeed so you're using more space to perform maneuvers. Most importantly, learn how to use a hint of rudder and elevator to get that famous rate of roll (Just breathe on the appropriate pedal and use a hint of back pressure on the stick) this takes a lot of practice but when you can use a lure like the scissor maneuver to turn your horizontal fight into a vertical one you'll have more luck in turning a defensive situation your way. No Russian plane in this game will beat any German one in a vertical contest, they're too under-powered.

 

Tl;dr:

 

Keep it trimmed, keep the ball centered, keep it fast and keep your AoA inside the drag/departure limits for your given airspeed and climb whenever you can. It's easily the most survivable aircraft in the game and can out-manuever any opponent within the correct parameters. If you're getting caught out and can't escape it's because you screwed up, not because the plane is bad.

[Wulf]

Got my butt handed to me today by KVL, ~S. But as others have stated it was mostly due to my tactical mistakes and the last one was even due to ego which preceded the tactical mistake (effit, I'll take the head on - stupid, stupid, stupid). On the other hand I cleaned house as part of a dedicated flight using coordinated attacks on comms this week.

 

So the question remains, What do you DO to find success in the Fw as she is presented in game. NOT an FM or ego discussion. In game tactics and how they compare to the real world are fair play as this is the heart of the matter.

 

There is some good info here. It is a good place for people struggling with her to gain some knowledge. Try not to derail it for the second time this week.

 

 

Well Murf, I'd have thought that was pretty well understood by now.  When fighting in a 190 you must always and I mean always start with an altitude advantage.  Then either you fight as a team and somehow attempt to maintain that advantage as long as you can (couple of minutes in ideal circumstances) before buggering off, or, when fighting on your own, you once again start from an altitude advantage (because that's the only way the 190 can fight) and then you make a diving attack on an enemy aircraft (yes, I know, you can do this with any fighter in the game but please, one issue at a time), then repeat the sequence if you're sure no one is above you (and no I don't know how you can ever be sure of that) and then as your energy starts to fade (i.e. after one or two passes), you bugger-off out of Dodge at the first sign your enemy is about to go co-E or co- alt.   Hmmmm ... better make that one pass just to be sure.

[Wulf]

ZeHairy has some pretty good videos of him showing off in the Fw-190, I'd look at them if I were you. Although I'd stick to more conservative tactics until you know the flight model well enough to try the kind of things he does. 

 

Setting up the control curves is important in the 190, add some "S" curve to the elevator and rudder to decrease the initial sensitivity or you'll be wobbling and flopping all over the place. Defensively, you can out-maneuver any Russian plane into an overshoot pretty easily so long as you aren't caught low and slow. If you are caught low and slow then you're a prize tit and you deserve what's coming to you.

 

The timing and technique of dogfights differs in the 190 to more traditional horizontal, one circle noobfighting, you're not reaching for the flaps and pulling that extra 5 degrees of alpha for an angle to shoot in the 190 so much as you're looking for opportunities to gain an energy (height or speed) advantage. You can reverse into a turn or change the 3 dimensional plane of a fight a lot quicker but you can't pull as hard on the stick without losing all of your airspeed so you're using more space to perform maneuvers. Most importantly, learn how to use a hint of rudder and elevator to get that famous rate of roll (Just breathe on the appropriate pedal and use a hint of back pressure on the stick) this takes a lot of practice but when you can use a lure like the scissor maneuver to turn your horizontal fight into a vertical one you'll have more luck in turning a defensive situation your way. No Russian plane in this game will beat any German one in a vertical contest, they're too under-powered.

 

Tl;dr:

 

Keep it trimmed, keep the ball centered, keep it fast and keep your AoA inside the drag/departure limits for your given airspeed and climb whenever you can. It's easily the most survivable aircraft in the game and can out-manuever any opponent within the correct parameters. If you're getting caught out and can't escape it's because you screwed up, not because the plane is bad.

 

 

Sorry, um, so you fly the 190 do you Jim, and you fly it online?  Is this something you've just started doing cos I'm having difficulty remembering you flying it in the recent past.  I haven't been on in the last few months so I assume it's in that time is it???

 

And if indeed you are flying it (and I assume from your comments you must be) I'd really like to see some video clips of you "easily" out maneuvering all those Russian planes and sucking them into over-shoot situations where you gun them out of the sky.  Man, that sounds like a lot of fun Jim.

 

Seriously, I didn't know you were a 190 guy and I've seen you online numerous times.  Wow, that's really cool.

 

So yeah, let's see those vids Jim.  Sounds like you're a real ace.

[Ace_Pilto]

Well Murf, I'd have thought that was pretty well understood by now.  When fighting in a 190 you must always and I mean always start with an altitude advantage.  Then either you fight as a team and somehow attempt to maintain that advantage as long as you can (couple of minutes in ideal circumstances) before buggering off, or, when fighting on your own, you once again start from an altitude advantage (because that's the only way the 190 can fight) and then you make a diving attack on an enemy aircraft (yes, I know, you can do this with any fighter in the game but please, one issue at a time), then repeat the sequence if you're sure no one is above you (and no I don't know how you can ever be sure of that) and then as your energy starts to fade (i.e. after one or two passes), you bugger-off out of Dodge at the first sign your enemy is about to go co-E or co- alt.   Hmmmm ... better make that one pass just to be sure.

 

This is how it goes when you start flying the 190 but it's a mistake to say that it's the only way to fly it. I had the same misconception myself and it has been demonstrated to me that, with experience, the 190 has more tricks than one pass haul ass tactics. Take a look at this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9HGk8avhM

 

I don't get to fly it that much, generally I like to fly on the team with less numbers so I end up in a Russian plane but I do prefer it to the 109 when I get the chance to fly it online. I'm not interested in being baited by "ace" comments but I have done well enough in it in duel servers where you're forced to fly more aggressively. It definitely is more capable than people give it credit for and it deserves its' reputation.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VA_JimmyBlonde

[Turban]

Got my butt handed to me today by KVL, ~S. But as others have stated it was mostly due to my tactical mistakes and the last one was even due to ego which preceded the tactical mistake (effit, I'll take the head on - stupid, stupid, stupid). On the other hand I cleaned house as part of a dedicated flight using coordinated attacks on comms this week.

 

So the question remains, What do you DO to find success in the Fw as she is presented in game. NOT an FM or ego discussion. In game tactics and how they compare to the real world are fair play as this is the heart of the matter.

 

There is some good info here. It is a good place for people struggling with her to gain some knowledge. Try not to derail it for the second time this week.

 

 

You fly on the official "normal" server ?  Do they have icons ?

 

If I'm asking it's because all tactics might become less effective of just plain different if icons are used. Making the enemy easy to spot at all time changes the odds quite a lot in WWII dogfights.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Turban

[Wulf]

This is how it goes when you start flying the 190 but it's a mistake to say that it's the only way to fly it. I had the same misconception myself and it has been demonstrated to me that, with experience, the 190 has more tricks than one pass haul ass tactics. Take a look at this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9HGk8avhM

 

I don't get to fly it that much, generally I like to fly on the team with less numbers so I end up in a Russian plane but I do prefer it to the 109 when I get the chance to fly it online. I'm not interested in being baited by "ace" comments but I have done well enough in it in duel servers where you're forced to fly more aggressively. It definitely is more capable than people give it credit for and it deserves its' reputation.

 

 

Hahahaha ... okay Jim thanks for that.

[Turban]

Sorry, um, so you fly the 190 do you Jim, and you fly it online?  Is this something you've just started doing cos I'm having difficulty remembering you flying it in the recent past.  I haven't been on in the last few months so I assume it's in that time is it???

 

And if indeed you are flying it (and I assume from your comments you must be) I'd really like to see some video clips of you "easily" out maneuvering all those Russian planes and sucking them into over-shoot situations where you gun them out of the sky.  Man, that sounds like a lot of fun Jim.

 

Seriously, I didn't know you were a 190 guy and I've seen you online numerous times.  Wow, that's really cool.

 

So yeah, let's see those vids Jim.  Sounds like you're a real ace.

 

Tip

 

At high speed the russians have less maneuverability. Their trajectories will be wider. By definition, they overshoot.

 

It won't last forever, but at that point you have a few seconds to decide what's your next move

[Wulf]

Tip

 

At high speed the russians have less maneuverability. Their trajectories will be wider. By definition, they overshoot.

 

It won't last forever, but at that point you have a few seconds to decide what's your next move

 

 

Tip:  When I was young we were taught that, if you had no particular experience of something, your best bet was to just STFU about it to avoid looking foolish.

 

So, if you don't actually fly the 190, it's probably going to be a mistake to come on here and advise those people who do, how to fly it.

[Turban]

Tip:  When I was young we were taught that, if you had no particular experience of something, your best bet was to just STFU about it to avoid looking foolish.

 

So, if you don't actually fly the 190, it's probably going to be a mistake to come on here and advise those people who do, how to fly it.

 

 

The fact that you  so easily dismiss the stiffening of the russian plane at high speed I mention shows that you know a lot less about dogfighting than you pretend .

 

 

So I'm not impressed.   To say the least 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Turban

[NooneYouKnow]

I

And it's a great plane, if you follow the manual. Some people just never read the manual, then complain about the product being broken.

 

 

 

 

 How would you know? Much stick time in it?

[Ace_Pilto]

Tip:  When I was young we were taught that, if you had no particular experience of something, your best bet was to just STFU about it to avoid looking foolish.

 

That's genuine wisdom right there Wulf, lost on a feckless sheep-shagger like you obviously.

 

Banter aside, since you seem to be struggling with the 190 maybe you ought to be the one listening? Turban is right, above 650KPH you're having a hard time keeping anything Russian going where you want it to go. You run out of elevator trim in most cases and are at the whim of physics until you can bleed off some speed. At 650-750 kph+ in the 190 you're in a golden paradise of magical turning performance that beats anything short of a P-51. I think it has something to do with the dimensions, positioning of the elevators as well as the merits if fabric covered control surfaces opposed to aluminium skinned ones. (Fabric ones distort and lose effectiveness)

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You fly on the official "normal" server ? Do they have icons ?

 

If I'm asking it's because all tactics might become less effective of just plain different if icons are used. Making the enemy easy to spot at all time changes the odds quite a lot in WWII dogfights.

I find it odd that you are dismissive of everything posted about this aircraft. Even when I posted my positive experiences and kudos to an opposing pilot when bested. You are moving rapidly into troll territory. Yes I fly normal. I'm much more interested in enjoying the maneuvering fight than the simple bounce most common in expert and real life. I'm reasonably successful in the 190. It should also be noted spotting with icons does, in fact, work both ways.

 

Now, back on topic shall we?

Edited April 15, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Turban]

I find it odd that you are dismissive of everything posted about this aircraft. Even when I posted my positive experiences. You are moving rapidly into trill territory. Yes I fly normal. I'm much more interested in enjoying the maneuvering fight than the simple bounce most common in expert and real life. I'm reasonably successful in the 190. It should also be noted spotting with icons does, in fact, work both ways.

 

Now, back on topic shall we?

 

I though that clearly mentionning why I was asking would prevent you from taking it as an offensive attack, obviously I was wrong.

 

My point was that, as a matter of fact icons do change tactics. As you imply yourself, icons will make the general tactics differ from "real life" tactics. From there all comparison to real life becomes edgy.

 

This sim is trying to be closer to real life. It's not about who gets an advantage with icons, it's how it influences the tactic. 

 

You say you enjoy the "maneuvering fights" that occur with icons on, but it's a fact that those fights won't always be the ideal scenario, and clearly not something the FW 190 was built for. 

 

So discussing tactics is good , but obviously the fact that icons are on is a very important factor to the discussion.

 

Anyway. Hope I'm not offending you it's not the point, I'm just trying to say things the way they are.

[Wulf]

That's genuine wisdom right there Wulf, lost on a feckless sheep-shagger like you obviously.

 

Banter aside, since you seem to be struggling with the 190 maybe you ought to be the one listening? Turban is right, above 650KPH you're having a hard time keeping anything Russian going where you want it to go. You run out of elevator trim in most cases and are at the whim of physics until you can bleed off some speed. At 650-750 kph+ in the 190 you're in a golden paradise of magical turning performance that beats anything short of a P-51. I think it has something to do with the dimensions, positioning of the elevators as well as the merits if fabric covered control surfaces opposed to aluminium skinned ones. (Fabric ones distort and lose effectiveness)

 

 

 

Jim, this isn't something I tell just anyone,  cos people tend to look at me like I'm some kind of 'gamer-geek' or something, but I've  done thousands of hours behind the stick of the bos 190  Thousands!!!

 

And yes, thanks for the advice about the way the thing behaves at speed (which I assume you picked up from somewhere or other on this forum) but actually, as it happens, I' m well aware of it and have been since the day after the 190 was released. 

 

So sorry if I don't seem all that grateful but these 'pearls of wisdom' of yours are actually already very well known to those of us here who actually fly the thing.  What's more, because we do fly it,rather than just talk about it, we're actually in a better position to judge the true extent of their usefulness. 

 

And just finally 'm8',  what I do with sheep in the privacy of the bedroom is entirely my own affair.  But thanks for the expression of interest. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Wulf

[Ace_Pilto]

Icons don't change the tactics so much as they chance peoples' mindset. In icon servers people rush to the merge without thinking for the most part and then they conga line each other to death. Icons also don't change the way the 190 flies.

 

Maneuvering fights in icons servers are still winnable in the 190. It has a powerful engine and it flies cleaner than the Russian aircraft if handled well but you can't get on the other guys' tail by out-turning him like in a Yak or 109F. The key is to move through the critical part of the turn (where he is reversing and turning into you and your closure speed is highest) faster rather than he does instead of trying to make your arc smaller overall by attempting to turn faster at a sustained rate. This means you have to delay turning until you can achieve the maximum amount of turn in relation to your opponent by quickly changing plane on him rather than by pulling raw alpha (AoA). The best way I can describe it is like you're trying to slingshot yourself through his turns like you would in a race car instead of matching them and reeling him in slowly by brute force. Imagine that the 109 and Yak have better traction, they can hold a hard turn but the 190 will drift into the barrier if it tries to do the same thing so you have to judge your timing to thread the corner more precisely. Now perform that maneuver on a racetrack where you're inside a giant pipe and the 109/Yak stays on the bottom of the track but you go up the side and over to win the race by coming behind him...

 

Clear as mud right?

 

Anyone who has done Aikido will understand what I mean, you use the other guys' momentum against him. The problem is that, at the critical moment its' very easy to get yourself in trouble and stall and this is why a lot of people give up. That's why I recommend adding some "S" curve to your elevator to get a better "feel" for how hard you can pull at that critical moment and this is why it is so important to understand when it is time to have the nose above the horizon and when to have it below.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Jimmy, we don't always see eye to eye but I completely agree with you on these tactics.

 

Edit: My mates and I never proceed directly to the merge except when we are driving 109's and know we will get the height advantage, either at the start of a round or from a rear base. Otherwise, you should climb obliquely regardless of AC. 

 

I rarely go into the furball either, unless I know I can drive cleanly out the other side. Until you know the 190 very well you should not follow an Allied bird through more than about 270 degrees either. It can absolutely do it but you have to know how, and just as importantly, when to do it.

Edited April 15, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Ace_Pilto]

Jim, this isn't something I'd tell just anyone,  cos people tend to look at me like I'm some kind of 'gamer-geek' or something, but I've  done thousands of hours behind the stick of the bos 190  Thousands!!!

 

And yes, thanks for the advice about the way the thing behaves at speed (which I assume you picked up from somewhere or other on this forum) but actually, as it happens, I' m well aware of it and have been since the day after the 190 was released. 

 

So sorry if I don't seem all that grateful but these 'pearls of wisdom' of yours are actually already very well known to those of us here who actually fly the thing.  What's more, because we do fly it,rather than just talk about it, we're actually in a better position to judge the true extent of their usefulness. 

 

And just finally m8,  what I do with sheep in the privacy of the bedroom is entirely my own affair.  But thanks for the expression of interest. 

 

I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, far from it. If you want to fight me I'll make time and let the gods decide but I do have enough experience to try and clear up some misconceptions and provide a bit of information for people who are interested in the 190. It has been said in this thread that there isn't much in the way of explanation of how to do well in the 190, by way of the fact that not many people get their head around how to fight with it and that is why I'm posting here, not to make myself seem as though I know it all but to share my experience that I inherited from my pedigree of people who taught me.

 

So many people give up on the 190 and go back to the conga-line noobfest of making ever diminishing circles at 0 ft with the flaps out in Yaks and 109s. It was the same in RoF with Camels and Dr-1s and it was the same in old Il-2, CFS2, CFS 1, Air Warrior etc. This is the lowest common denominator of combat flight simming which is a problem for people who just spent 40 odd dollarmonies on a fancy new Fw-190 and now feel gypped because they are getting their butts handed to them. They don't know that 190 isn't a plane for the the lowest common denominator so they fly it according to their intuition and fail, but they can't really be blamed for misunderstanding it. Short of joining an actual airforce or being such an obsessive geek that you actually study this kind of thing (like we do), it's almost impossible to understand any kind of ACM beyond "TURN TIGHTERER THAN THE OTHER GUY" by learning it through trial and error against people who are better than you. If you're dying after 1 or 2 turns/passes all the time you're not learning anything except that it's better to fly a plane that at least gives you 5 or 6 turns/passes until you die and that you should cancel your VISA order for the 190 because it's "obviously" rubbish. This is what happens to most new guys in the 190 because they are clueless as to how to fly it. I know this because I've been through the process of being clueless in a variety of sims that date back to the bad old days of dial up internet (<jk>Which was last month in Australia </jk>) and I have seen many others go through it as well. I've had the benefit of coaching and coached a few people myself because this theoretical aspect interests me more than just killing planes, I want to understand how the process works. 

 

That said, energy fighting is still the same in BoS as it was in any previous title with the exception that the FM's have more fidelity and the graphics are nicer these days. My experience is transferable and has served me well enough in BoS, even though I still have to I contend with the little quirks that the 190 has on this platform. (Negative AoA departures, dropping like a brick on final approach, working the stabilizer, understanding the engine limits, can't see shit until it's on top of you, etc etc etc)

 

Then either you fight as a team and somehow attempt to maintain that advantage as long as you can (couple of minutes in ideal circumstances) before buggering off, or, when fighting on your own, you once again start from an altitude advantage (because that's the only way the 190 can fight) and then you make a diving attack on an enemy aircraft (yes, I know, you can do this with any fighter in the game but please, one issue at a time), then repeat the sequence if you're sure no one is above you (and no I don't know how you can ever be sure of that) and then as your energy starts to fade (i.e. after one or two passes), you bugger-off out of Dodge at the first sign your enemy is about to go co-E or co- alt.   Hmmmm ... better make that one pass just to be sure.

 

 

It's not the only way the 190 can fight, that's garbage. It's just the best way to use it like the best way to chop wood with an axe is with the sharp edge. I don't understand why you're contradicting yourself here since you confidently claim to have such a vast amount of hours on the 190 (which I don't doubt is true). Are you being sarcastic? Having a bad day? Or have you never actually won a fight from a defensive start in all this time flying it?

 

Of course it's best to have the advantage, of course it's best to have a wingman, it's also best to have two arms and two legs and two eyes, it's best to have a pulse! Nobody denies that doing these things stacks the odds in your favour but plenty of people manage to screw up even with these advantages. You don't have to throw your hands up in defeat if you are forced to fight from the defensive. You can go looking for trouble in the 190 solo and be successful, you can go looking for trouble in the 190 at any height and be successful so long as you remember this:

 

"You can be low, you can be slow but you can't be both unless you're trying to land."

 

If you're at cruising speed (450kph or so) you have a fighting chance against any Russian plane whether you're defending or not so long as you don't panic, don't yank the stick around and fart away all your energy. You want to make him to match speed with you because, provided you see him coming and provided you know how to defend against a guns pass, he'll usually miss and either overshoot or climb away (OK, some people just don't miss, they're capable of predicting the future like that and they make your life miserable and then go and laugh about it with their rich athletic friends over sirloin steaks and caviar because they are assholes who won at the genetic lottery). But most people will miss if you know how to complicate their shot so they climb back up and you're at a stalemate.

 

At this point, in order to kill you he has to:

 

1) Match speed enough to get behind you for an easier shot

2) Disengage

3) Keep making fruitless runs at you until his mates arrive.

 

Option 1 is what most will eventually try

Option 2 lets you escape but be wary of tricks

Option 3 is what the smart kids on teamspeak do.

 

You can't afford any mistakes in defending against option 1 but there's no reason you can't turn the tables on even a well flown Yak fresh from Area 51. If you know how to exploit his weaknesses (heavy under-powered engine, bad high speed handling, overconfidence, over-reliance on MUH TURNING RADIUS and MUH FLAPS) then you can build an advantage for yourself and either kill him or escape. I have seen it done, done it and had it done to me over and over. You're on a knife's edge in this situation and most people who fly the 190 the first few times don't even have a firm grasp on the knife's handle. 

 

Anyway, this kind of negative propaganda is what gives the 190 a bad name which it doesn't deserve it at all, it's a capable "dogfighter" in its' own way but like any tool it should be used according to its' purpose for maximum effect. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is on this. (Albeit I'm a bit rusty and will probably have to spend an hour or so figuring out why trackIR is being silly, why my pedals are configured backwards, where I left my cool flying scarf or how come various other simming peripherals aren't working properly)

[Wulf]

 

I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, far from it. If you want to fight me I'll make time and let the gods decide but I do have enough experience to try and clear up some misconceptions and provide a bit of information for people who are interested in the 190. It has been said in this thread that there isn't much in the way of explanation of how to do well in the 190, by way of the fact that not many people get their head around how to fight with it and that is why I'm posting here, not to make myself seem as though I know it all but to share my experience that I inherited from my pedigree of people who taught me.

 

So many people give up on the 190 and go back to the conga-line noobfest of making ever diminishing circles at 0 ft with the flaps out in Yaks and 109s. It was the same in RoF with Camels and Dr-1s and it was the same in old Il-2, CFS2, CFS 1, Air Warrior etc. This is the lowest common denominator of combat flight simming which is a problem for people who just spent 40 odd dollarmonies on a fancy new Fw-190 and now feel gypped because they are getting their butts handed to them. They don't know that 190 isn't a plane for the the lowest common denominator so they fly it according to their intuition and fail, but they can't really be blamed for misunderstanding it. Short of joining an actual airforce or being such an obsessive geek that you actually study this kind of thing (like we do), it's almost impossible to understand any kind of ACM beyond "TURN TIGHTERER THAN THE OTHER GUY" by learning it through trial and error against people who are better than you. If you're dying after 1 or 2 turns/passes all the time you're not learning anything except that it's better to fly a plane that at least gives you 5 or 6 turns/passes until you die and that you should cancel your VISA order for the 190 because it's "obviously" rubbish. This is what happens to most new guys in the 190 because they are clueless as to how to fly it. I know this because I've been through the process of being clueless in a variety of sims that date back to the bad old days of dial up internet (<jk>Which was last month in Australia </jk>) and I have seen many others go through it as well. I've had the benefit of coaching and coached a few people myself because this theoretical aspect interests me more than just killing planes, I want to understand how the process works. 

 

That said, energy fighting is still the same in BoS as it was in any previous title with the exception that the FM's have more fidelity and the graphics are nicer these days. My experience is transferable and has served me well enough in BoS, even though I still have to I contend with the little quirks that the 190 has on this platform. (Negative AoA departures, dropping like a brick on final approach, working the stabilizer, understanding the engine limits, can't see shit until it's on top of you, etc etc etc)

 

 

It's not the only way the 190 can fight, that's garbage. It's just the best way to use it like the best way to chop wood with an axe is with the sharp edge. I don't understand why you're contradicting yourself here since you confidently claim to have such a vast amount of hours on the 190 (which I don't doubt is true). Are you being sarcastic? Having a bad day? Or have you never actually won a fight from a defensive start in all this time flying it?

 

Of course it's best to have the advantage, of course it's best to have a wingman, it's also best to have two arms and two legs and two eyes, it's best to have a pulse! Nobody denies that doing these things stacks the odds in your favour but plenty of people manage to screw up even with these advantages. You don't have to throw your hands up in defeat if you are forced to fight from the defensive. You can go looking for trouble in the 190 solo and be successful, you can go looking for trouble in the 190 at any height and be successful so long as you remember this:

 

"You can be low, you can be slow but you can't be both unless you're trying to land."

 

If you're at cruising speed (450kph or so) you have a fighting chance against any Russian plane whether you're defending or not so long as you don't panic, don't yank the stick around and fart away all your energy. You want to make him to match speed with you because, provided you see him coming and provided you know how to defend against a guns pass, he'll usually miss and either overshoot or climb away (OK, some people just don't miss, they're capable of predicting the future like that and they make your life miserable and then go and laugh about it with their rich athletic friends over sirloin steaks and caviar because they are assholes who won at the genetic lottery). But most people will miss if you know how to complicate their shot so they climb back up and you're at a stalemate.

 

At this point, in order to kill you he has to:

 

1) Match speed enough to get behind you for an easier shot

2) Disengage

3) Keep making fruitless runs at you until his mates arrive.

 

Option 1 is what most will eventually try

Option 2 lets you escape but be wary of tricks

Option 3 is what the smart kids on teamspeak do.

 

You can't afford any mistakes in defending against option 1 but there's no reason you can't turn the tables on even a well flown Yak fresh from Area 51. If you know how to exploit his weaknesses (heavy under-powered engine, bad high speed handling, overconfidence, over-reliance on MUH TURNING RADIUS and MUH FLAPS) then you can build an advantage for yourself and either kill him or escape. I have seen it done, done it and had it done to me over and over. You're on a knife's edge in this situation and most people who fly the 190 the first few times don't even have a firm grasp on the knife's handle. 

 

Anyway, this kind of negative propaganda is what gives the 190 a bad name which it doesn't deserve it at all, it's a capable "dogfighter" in its' own way but like any tool it should be used according to its' purpose for maximum effect. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is on this. (Albeit I'm a bit rusty and will probably have to spend an hour or so figuring out why trackIR is being silly, why my pedals are configured backwards, where I left my cool flying scarf or how come various other simming peripherals aren't working properly)

 

 

 

Hmmm... yeah, I think I remember you from the old War Clouds server when I flew under the Terrorfleiger (sic) nik.  I used to fly the 190 exclusively back then as well.  And I think I remember you from my time on ATAG when, as I recall,  I flew as Lonewulf.

 

I don't think I've ever seen you in a 190.

 

And for what it's worth, my comments to Murf were facetious - he would have understood that even if you didn't.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Wulf

[Ace_Pilto]

Terrorflieger! Of course I remember you from Warclouds. We've certainly crossed sabers plenty of times and had more than a few good fights. I usually stuck to the P-51 in those days since I started out with the 328th FS before moving on to VA. Both of those outfits tended to be allied squadrons but I did like getting into the D-9 when Blue needed pilots. I've had some of the most beautiful dogfights against the 190 on Warclouds, ones that just went on and on. I never had much to do with ATAG but I know a few of the guys from before ATAG was a thing. You used to lone wolf a lot on Warclouds IIRC right? I'd fight my way through all the CIA guys, escape by the hair of my teeth and there's bloody Terrorflieger on my 6 again.

 

You probably wouldn't have seen me in a 190 very often unless it was in a duel server since, when I get onto WoL and its inevitably 20 Luftwaffe aces vs half a dozen Russkis so I generally try to play on the side that needs numbers. It's a shame because the 190 is my favourite plane in BoS, nothing comes close to it. 

 

It's good see another familar face around anyway, cheers!

[Irgendjemand]

I think your post demonstrates very well the level of your argumentation. And the credibility of this whole topic.

 

What is your experience of multiplayer by the way ?

Hundreds of hours. Only because i lack the "Tags" doesnt mean i dont know the game and forums very well:P

Edited April 15, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Irgendjemand]

This is how it goes when you start flying the 190 but it's a mistake to say that it's the only way to fly it. I had the same misconception myself and it has been demonstrated to me that, with experience, the 190 has more tricks than one pass haul ass tactics. Take a look at this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9HGk8avhM

 

I don't get to fly it that much, generally I like to fly on the team with less numbers so I end up in a Russian plane but I do prefer it to the 109 when I get the chance to fly it online. I'm not interested in being baited by "ace" comments but I have done well enough in it in duel servers where you're forced to fly more aggressively. It definitely is more capable than people give it credit for and it deserves its' reputation.

This vid is from 2015. Everyone that complains complains about the FW since the RECENT patch.

I repeat. If they would have just fixed the climbrate and left the rest as it was (i believe) NOONE would complain!

[Grancesc]

The problem isn’t with the quality of the BOS/BOM FW190 per se. It is its worsened stall and energy retention behavior since the 1.201d patch that distresses many vpilots.

[Ace_Pilto]

Bah, everyone has complained about the 190 since there has been a 190 to complain about. If it's not one thing it's another, the canopy bar is too big, the seat is wrong, the cup holder is too small for my Stein, it's too slow, it's too fast, there's no in-flight movie, there is an in-flight movie but it stars Adam Sandler, mummy my feet hurt ad nauseum.

 

Some of these complaints are justified but that's for FM discussion threads so, no matter what the quirks of this months' FM are you still have to fly it basically the same unless the devs completely borked it but maybe this month you have to be more careful.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VA_JimmyBlonde

[Irgendjemand]

the canopy bar is too big

 

FACT. Refraction cannot be modeled in engine so the bar being visible like that IS not simulating reality well. Its simple as that. Poor designdecision has been made IMO. And that applies nto just to the FW but all planes that have thick panzerglas.

 

Just imagine YOUR favorite plane would be messed up bigtime. woudnt you raise your hand and say what you dont like?

I mean arent the forums there for expressing your opinion on things?

 

I really feel YOU VVS jockeys only want your oponents be be easy kills and THATS why you always say everything is fine. Because from your POV it IS fine. At leas when i read Turbans and your posts i really cant do anythign but get that impression. Your thoughts in my imagination when you fly online and encounter an FW: "Ah an FW - awesome. If the dude does anything but run away its an easy kill for me - i really love this plane".

 

The FW is not good to fly. It stalls all over the place, cant run cant dive, is toast against almost all VVS planes in a co alt/E situation (equal skill assumed) if it tries to do anything but run away. Would you be OK if your favorite plane would be (in your opinion) messed up like that? I guess not.

The FW in BOS right now does no good job in simulating the plane we all read so much about and learnd to love because of what we read.

 

And thats not because i want all german planes to be uber. I know there are issues with other german planes that need adressing. And if some plane is overperforming (on german side) i am just as much against it as i am against one underperforming.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

We don't want easy kills, we just think some people overreact big time to any change that is made to the Fw-190. Seeing you chaps complain that a fighter with four cannons, good roll rate and excellent maximum speed is useless after fighting three 109s with a single LaGG-3 and landing in one piece is... cute, really.

[StG2_Manfred]

If the 190 is so good like people here constantly say I invite you to fight against me and you demonstrate it's capabilities. You take the 190 and I'm gonna take one of the inferior VVS planes, ok. 

 

My invitation is meant serious !

Edited April 15, 2016 by StG2_Manfred

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The 190 has higher wing loading though so while the Lagg-3 can actually manouvre well given you keep the speed up the 190 quickly burns 200 kph in a sharp turn you you wont recover as soon as prior the patch.

 

Statements about how unflyable the 190 is are of course over the top. You can still do well within a smaller error margin this update imposed and the increased rate of climb is very benefitial. But I agree it feels less fun to fight with because you feel forced to run big time when earlier you still had some "card" you could play to suprise your opponent.

 

Of course from a FM point this discussion and opinion is all irrelevant. The FM obviously changed which already indicates sth must have been wrong either with the new or previous FM. If it is found to be wrong it must be fixed, no matter if to the better or worse.

[Wulf]

If the 190 is so good like people here constantly say I invite you to fight against me and you demonstrate it's capabilities. You take the 190 and I'm gonna take one of the inferior VVS planes, ok. 

 

My invitation is meant serious !

 

 

JimmyBlonde will want a piece of that action for sure.  Jim can easily out-maneuver Russkies in a 190 - he told us so.

 

Jim, m8.   JIMMMMMMM!, I just volunteered you to fight Manfred.  Jim where are you m8??

 

Jim's in the 'bathroom' at present but he'll be along directly.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Wulf

[Ace_Pilto]

FACT. Refraction cannot be modeled in engine so the bar being visible like that IS not simulating reality well. Its simple as that. Poor designdecision has been made IMO. And that applies nto just to the FW but all planes that have thick panzerglas.

 

Just imagine YOUR favorite plane would be messed up bigtime. woudnt you raise your hand and say what you dont like?

I mean arent the forums there for expressing your opinion on things?

 

I really feel YOU VVS jockeys only want your oponents be be easy kills and THATS why you always say everything is fine. Because from your POV it IS fine. At leas when i read Turbans and your posts i really cant do anythign but get that impression. Your thoughts in my imagination when you fly online and encounter an FW: "Ah an FW - awesome. If the dude does anything but run away its an easy kill for me - i really love this plane".

 

The FW is not good to fly. It stalls all over the place, cant run cant dive, is toast against almost all VVS planes in a co alt/E situation (equal skill assumed) if it tries to do anything but run away. Would you be OK if your favorite plane would be (in your opinion) messed up like that? I guess not.

The FW in BOS right now does no good job in simulating the plane we all read so much about and learnd to love because of what we read.

 

And thats not because i want all german planes to be uber. I know there are issues with other german planes that need adressing. And if some plane is overperforming (on german side) i am just as much against it as i am against one underperforming.

 

Hey, I hear you man. Like I said, some of these issues are justified. I'm not belittling any specific argument about FM or modelling, it's just that this isn't an FM complaint thread, it's meant to be about about how each of us do well in the 190 as it is.

 

When you say YOU VVS jockeys remember that the 190 is my favourite plane in BoS too. I just don't get to fly it much online since the blue team usually has more players than the red team. I'm not judging anyone, it's just my personal quirk that I feel obliged to join the smaller team. The best I can get is a few sneaky sorties here and there when nobody is around or occasionally when red has more pilots.

 

I'm not qualified to raise my hand about any aspect of the 190's performance and modelling. I know very little about what makes aircraft work and I don't really care about the more academic technical stuff. All those charts and formulae make me feel inadequate and give me the uncomfortable feeling that I've wasted my life chasing romantic notions, that I should have listened to my parents and teachers and applied myself and that I will never be half as clever as I think I am. If those clever guys prove that the 190 is broken with their university level mathematics then I'll go along with it because arguing the point with them is plain silly. I've tried it and made a fool of myself in the past. All I know is how to turn things on, turn them off and what to do with my hands and feet, I work with the tools I am given and that's that. 

JimmyBlonde will want a piece of that action for sure.  Jim can easily out-maneuver Russkies in a 190 - he told us so.

 

Jim, m8.   JIMMMMMMM!, I just volunteered you to fight Manfred.  Jim where are you m8??

 

Jim's in the 'bathroom' at present but he'll be along directly.

 

If Manfred is patient enough to oblige me the time required to plug in all my sim gadgets I'll gladly oblige him.

[Kurfurst]

The 190 has higher wing loading though so while the Lagg-3 can actually manouvre well given you keep the speed up the 190 quickly burns 200 kph in a sharp turn you you wont recover as soon as prior the patch.

 

Statements about how unflyable the 190 is are of course over the top. You can still do well within a smaller error margin this update imposed and the increased rate of climb is very benefitial. But I agree it feels less fun to fight with because you feel forced to run big time when earlier you still had some "card" you could play to suprise your opponent.

 

Of course from a FM point this discussion and opinion is all irrelevant. The FM obviously changed which already indicates sth must have been wrong either with the new or previous FM. If it is found to be wrong it must be fixed, no matter if to the better or worse.

 

Agreed and as personally aI see it most of these FW 190 FM discussions have just degenerated into ego boosting trips for some very frustrated people, each of whom seem to think that he - and, more importantly nobody else - is the sole holder of the Ultimate Truth on Fw 190 FM.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VO101Kurfurst

[StG2_Manfred]

 

If Manfred is patient enough to oblige me the time required to plug in all my sim gadgets I'll gladly oblige him.

 

Of course Jimmy, I don't wanna urge you. You can PN me when you are prepared.