How do YOU fly the 190.............NOT an FM discussion.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I didn't stall her out today. What is easier? Relaxing the stick to prevent or breaking the stall once it is fully developed?

 

And are we talking simple stall or inverted recovery?

 

I mean the high speed departures we are used to, before I felt it was more likely that it would end up turning in to a spin yet as soon as I departed it seemed to recover when I would I release the pressure on the stick for a second. I felt that this would happen even more unexpectedly (than before) yet recovery was also a bit easier. I am a very gentle person when flying LW fighers and never turn (except for a snap shot in the 190)...before the patch a high speed snatch shot by yanking the stick was really quite easy even at very high speeds..

Edited April 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[CUJO_1970]

I didn't want to mention anything after d patch as I was sure it was placebo effect. Glad to see others noticing the same thing. Maybe we all are experiencing the placebo effect.

 

The thing is, I've been using the same cheap Logitech extreme 3d pro joystick (best budget stick on the market) for about the last few years and I can feel precisely the moment the back pressure on the stick produces the stall. I can push it a little beyond that point now. If there has been an unannounced change (I think there has been) then good on 1C for trying to stop the bleeding. It is the second "unannounced" change I've noticed with the FW, the other involving roll rate.

 

I've been demolishing Yaks and Laggs in QMB. Soon may be time to go online and hunt humans.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

OK, we have gone off the rails here. This is specifically a tips and tricks thread and not an FM discussion. I have asked a MOD to come in and clean up the OT stuff.

[Bearcat]

... and it has been done.

 

Look.. I get it... The Fw-190 was apparently such an amazingly complex aircraft.. that apparently no flight sim developer has ever been able to model it correctly .. because if I remember correctly.. even at UBI the one bird that has always been a magnet for just about every kind of criticism leveled at any bird in any sim... has ben the 190. It was in fact the aircaft that caused the coining of the term "Luftwhiner" ...

 

So having said that.. this thread is all about how you fly the 190 .... as it is modeled.. for better or worse.. in this sim. If you cannot do that.. then just don't post in this thread. There are enough threads with details.. charts... anecdotes.... charts... pilot accounts... charts.. and more charts... and more opinions... so this thread does not need them.. This thread is all about how have you as a 190 pilot who has decided that regardless you are going to fly your favorite bird... manged to get the best out of the incarnation of that bird.. in this sim...

 

So let's just keep it on topic shall we gents.

[Holtzauge]

OK, we have gone off the rails here. This is specifically a tips and tricks thread and not an FM discussion. I have asked a MOD to come in and clean up the OT stuff.

 

Good idea: Let's keep this thread on topic. Those who are interested in continuing the Fw-109A3 FM discussion can do so here.

[Bearcat]

Thank you Holtzauge .............. I figured that by now everyone chiming in on this knew where that thread was.. but perhaps some did not..

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

that apparently no flight sim developer has ever been able to model it correctly

bollocks. DCS made it completely right. The creators of the HSFX patch got it also right (no "Developers" however). BoS is the only sim where it behaves weird right now.  I know it is off topic, but you started it with your wrong (also OT) statement in here.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Just flew it against AI Lagg-3s; the trouble I seem to behaving is the change in response between 450kph+ (rock solid, lovely feeling of solidity and precision) and < 300 kph (skittish, about to drop a wing if  not handled carefully).

On the plus side, I am now remembering the: pull up - check contact - roll to create best angle approach to flying.

[WWDubya]

Just want to drop in here to say how I recently got rid of the ballerina dance moves while taxiing the 190. Previously I'd been using toe-breaks, then went to a keyboard function (left and right segregated), then settled on forgetting about left-right and combined both into one keyboard key. Still not good as it took one hand away from the HOTAS. In this configuration, most AC behaved reasonably well on the ground... but the wild-pony 190 would just not be tamed.

 

Yesterday, I configured a button on the stick that I could comfortably reach with my thumb while I had it pulled back through my gut and into my spine. This button applies full pressure to both breaks (left and right) when depressed, and removes pressure when released. Since then, I've been able to taxi quite reliably from parking to active by locking the tail (full back pressure on stick), jockeying the throttle back and forth, while pressing and releasing the break button and applying rudder left and right as needed to work my way around the taxi ways. This also helps with the pirouettes I got while landing! I tested this four times in a row, and not once did I burn doughnuts while on the ground! WooT!    

 

I fully realize this is far from historic, but hey, it works on my rig! Now I just need to test this on the other AC that act all squirrelly while earth-bound.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by WWDubya

[ShamrockOneFive]

So I started flying it again last night after some of the guys said there were a few more tweaks to the FM and I'm pretty happy at the moment.

 

I know its probably been hammered in for ages but the FW190 is a great team plane and it works well if you envision the entire attack run from beginning to end of the run. In a 109 or a Yak I tend to fly reactively - I target the enemy aircraft and I position myself for the killing shot but if he changes course then I change course to match and again line up for the killing shot. In a FW190 you don't fly that way (I know it sounds confusing, bear with)... You anticipate two or three possible moves the target could make, position for most of those and go for the shot. If an unanticipated action is made then you break off and position for the next run. In a frenzied dogfight environment the best possible move in the FW190 has always been to play strategically and play the long game.

 

The 109 is like a sharp knife. The 190 is like a hammer. I don't remember where I read that but I've taken that to heart.

 

One more thing... I haven't done this in BoS yet but back in the IL-2 Forgotten Battles days when the FW190A-4 and A-5 were very difficult to fly (even compared to recent patches) and you couldn't see over the nose in any way... I used to fly in a couple of "full real" servers and I'd always team up. One of my best memories was a flight of four FW190A-5s flying as a hunting pack (coordinated on TS). We'd spot a furball and engage at high speed and slight altitude advantage. We flew in a pattern with a kind of kill box in front of us. Anything that flew into that was a target. If you hit then you shot to kill and if you missed you kept going because you always wanted to be with the pack. We were always fast enough that the dogfighters wouldn't catch us and their attention was usually distracted so as to make the attack run more difficult to spot.

 

I see no reason why this kind of strategy won't still work.

 

Stay fast, hit hard, play the long game and never get drawn into prolonged fights. The FW190 is there to destroy planes... Not engage in duels.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

One of my best memories was a flight of four FW190A-5s flying as a hunting pack (coordinated on TS). We'd spot a furball and engage at high speed and slight altitude advantage. We flew in a pattern with a kind of kill box in front of us. Anything that flew into that was a target. If you hit then you shot to kill and if you missed you kept going because you always wanted to be with the pack. We were always fast enough that the dogfighters wouldn't catch us and their attention was usually distracted so as to make the attack run more difficult to spot.

 

You, my friend, are evil.

 

This kind of smart tactical execution brings happy tears to anyone with an interest in fighter aviation

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Manu, I think Bearcat was saying that euphemistically. As in, no matter what a developer does with the Fw there will always be a vociferous few who are unsatisfied with it. I'm not saying our Fw is right or wrong becaue that is not what this thread is about (and we are approaching an FM discussion again) but he wasn't actually saying that no one had, in fact, ever gotten it right.

Edited April 13, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[3./JG15_Kampf]

I saw that some post were deleted (FM?). Difficult to comment as I am flying the Fw 190 without speaking as he is behaving in the game. Moreover every new update fw190 is changing, so what I write today tomorrow can be a lie. Anyway this was my last writing this post thx

[ShamrockOneFive]

You, my friend, are evil.

 

This kind of smart tactical execution brings happy tears to anyone with an interest in fighter aviation

 

Thanks! 

 

It's a lot of fun to fly that way but it also takes a bit of time and to be in the right place with the kind of folks who also are interested in flying that way. When it happens... It's a blast!

[Bearcat]

bollocks. DCS made it completely right. The creators of the HSFX patch got it also right (no "Developers" however). BoS is the only sim where it behaves weird right now.  I know it is off topic, but you started it with your wrong (also OT) statement in here.

 

I started it... ? Did you just come to this thread.. ?

 

Manu, I think Bearcat was saying that euphemistically. As in, no matter what a developer does with the Fw there will always be a vociferous few who are unsatisfied with it. I'm not saying our Fw is right or wrong becaue that is not what this thread is about (and we are approaching an FM discussion again) but he wasn't actually saying that no one had, in fact, ever gotten it right.

 

That is exactly what I meant. You can go on the DCS board right now and find folks complaining about it.. It was the sae way with IL2.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Is there a curve / sensitivity consensus, by the way? I dialed mine right down to c. 80% which seems to make it easier to control.

[Smis]

Hello. Is the FW at sea level slower as LA or does it have something to do with tachometer inaccuracy or automatic engine management?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Depends on engine mode. The Fw-190 on emergency is faster than the La-5 on boost, but the La-5 on boost is faster than the Fw-190 on combat mode. At 3000m, the Fw-190 is faster on emergency mode but on continuous and combat mode the La-5 is faster. From 3000m and up the Fw-190 leaves the Lavka in the dust.

[Smis]

I have test it on emergency mode and i couldn't reach more than 550 kmph at sea level with FW but it was summer map and the LA i had 560 kmph but i think it was winter map so it could be just the differnce of how much was the radiators opened

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Try the Quick Mission in the autumn map, same altitude, weather and so on.

[Willy__]

I have test it on emergency mode and i couldn't reach more than 550 kmph at sea level with FW but it was summer map and the LA i had 560 kmph but i think it was winter map so it could be just the differnce of how much was the radiators opened

 

On winter maps all planes are much faster, they also climb much better. Best way to test is using autumn maps.

[Smis]

Yeah i forgot about it when i was asking becouse it was a while when i was testing LA max and the FW i was testing yesterday. Anyway thank you

[Venturi]

I have found that the model adheres to this flying characteristics report pretty closely.

 

This is an excellent document and should be read by anyone interested in FW190 characteristics. It is it perfect of course but a good relative understanding might be gained. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf

[Avyx]

Is FW 190 A3 better ( generally speaking ) than BF 109 F4 / BF 109 G2 ?

 

[cellinsky]

I have found that the model adheres to this flying characteristics report pretty closely.

 

Thats what I think too. I have "tested" because of this thread in a view campagne-missions. So under "war-conditions". When flown according to this report, wich btw. is close to other reports in books I own, I managed to score frequently. When turn and burn down low with P40s, I stalled out also frequently. Dunno, but I think its not that way off as others suggest... But thats me, and I love this bird in the current iteration.

[Wulf]

So I started flying it again last night after some of the guys said there were a few more tweaks to the FM and I'm pretty happy at the moment.

 

I know its probably been hammered in for ages but the FW190 is a great team plane and it works well if you envision the entire attack run from beginning to end of the run. In a 109 or a Yak I tend to fly reactively - I target the enemy aircraft and I position myself for the killing shot but if he changes course then I change course to match and again line up for the killing shot. In a FW190 you don't fly that way (I know it sounds confusing, bear with)... You anticipate two or three possible moves the target could make, position for most of those and go for the shot. If an unanticipated action is made then you break off and position for the next run. In a frenzied dogfight environment the best possible move in the FW190 has always been to play strategically and play the long game.

 

The 109 is like a sharp knife. The 190 is like a hammer. I don't remember where I read that but I've taken that to heart.

 

One more thing... I haven't done this in BoS yet but back in the IL-2 Forgotten Battles days when the FW190A-4 and A-5 were very difficult to fly (even compared to recent patches) and you couldn't see over the nose in any way... I used to fly in a couple of "full real" servers and I'd always team up. One of my best memories was a flight of four FW190A-5s flying as a hunting pack (coordinated on TS). We'd spot a furball and engage at high speed and slight altitude advantage. We flew in a pattern with a kind of kill box in front of us. Anything that flew into that was a target. If you hit then you shot to kill and if you missed you kept going because you always wanted to be with the pack. We were always fast enough that the dogfighters wouldn't catch us and their attention was usually distracted so as to make the attack run more difficult to spot.

 

I see no reason why this kind of strategy won't still work.

 

Stay fast, hit hard, play the long game and never get drawn into prolonged fights. The FW190 is there to destroy planes... Not engage in duels.

 

 

Interesting.

 

So how would you say '190 tactics' differ from say, the tactics used by any other fighter aircraft with an initial altitude advantage attacking an enemy formationl- aside from not turning of course?

 

And what advice would you give to one or more 190 pilots caught at a lower level by enemy fighters with an altitude advantage?  And how would you go about attempting to assist your wingman if he was forced to turn by bandits attacking from a higher altitude?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

 

Is FW 190 A3 better ( generally speaking ) than BF 109 F4 / BF 109 G2 ?

 

It has not many advantages over those 2. The roll rate is better which only becomes significant at high airspeed and it is (should) be faster at < 2000m.

 

What used to be an advantage was it's ability to disengage and escape from any fight due to good dive acceleration and the ability to pull sharper manouvres than other fighters at high airspeeds. This advantage however somewhat diminished with the latest update causing quite a bit of frustration among players who were used to and rely on this tactic.

[Venturi]

You don't give enough information in your first question to be able to provide meaningful advice. However I would suggest you try doing what real fighter pilots did in similar situations, that is keep your speed up, conserve E, and be patient. "Speed is Life." Now, is the 190 a fast bird, hmm? Does it retain energy in a dive, hmm? Then stop complaining and use that. It's not a turn fighter.

 

And to answer your second question, you are hosed if you're bounced low. You have committed a grave sin against the combat aviation gods, and now you believe you should be let off? You are in a low energy state with no escape, and even if you could turn like a Yak, it wouldn't save you now. Guess what, that's the case for everybody in that situation regardless of plane, if you're up against a good opponent. Your only chance is to equalize E by making them burn their E advantage, and then using your better speed and superior climb rate to regain the advantage. That's an advantage no Russian plane hasl, but both the 109 and 190 are fast and good climbers. See what I'm getting at?

 

There is no easy button just because you're flying a great bird. It's not a turn fighter. Read the report. And guess what, dogfighting actually wasn't the way most pilots got their kills. Getting low and slow was a recipe to get picked off. Fast attacks with a heavy punch allowed a quick entry and quick exit, and kept pilots alive. The 190 was fast and it should be able to change direction well at high speed. In real life, that kind of directional change is much harder to follow and a much better evasive move than in the sim. But imagine the complaining if pilots in the sim actually blacked out fairly quickly at 5G... although you'd see a lot more successful evasive split S maneuvers.

 

Fly smart, fly with disciplined friends, and you'll always have more success.

[Venturi]

Thats what I think too. I have "tested" because of this thread in a view campagne-missions. So under "war-conditions". When flown according to this report, wich btw. is close to other reports in books I own, I managed to score frequently. When turn and burn down low with P40s, I stalled out also frequently. Dunno, but I think its not that way off as others suggest... But thats me, and I love this bird in the current iteration.

There is no doubt the P40 was outclassed by the FW190. But it wasn't outclassed by as much as people like to believe. In fact, just like the Allison engine, it has been maligned by many others who simply were less knowledgable. I can give you a few firsthand replies to that subject by Erik Shilling if you need further convincing. But that's another thread.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

5G isnt too massive tbh and shouldnt make a pilot black out if only pulled for a few seconds.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[StG2_Manfred]

.....

Now, is the 190 a fast bird, hmm? Does it retain energy in a dive, hmm? Then stop complaining and use that. It's not a turn fighter.

.....

.....

..... That's an advantage no Russian plane hasl, but both the 109 and 190 are fast and good climbers. See what I'm getting at?

 

 

As I mentioned in the FM section, I made tests with a comrade Yak vs Focke co-energy. The Focke could not dive away nor climb away nor run away in level flight, so your statement for the Focke is not correct.

 

I'm ready to repeat those tests with you if you want.

[KaC_Furias]

The 109 is like a sharp knife. The 190 is like a hammer. I don't remember where I read that but I've taken that to heart.

 

 

Günther Rall  said in a interview .

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It has not many advantages over those 2. The roll rate is better which only becomes significant at high airspeed and it is (should) be faster at < 2000m.

 

What used to be an advantage was it's ability to disengage and escape from any fight due to good dive acceleration and the ability to pull sharper manouvres than other fighters at high airspeeds. This advantage however somewhat diminished with the latest update causing quite a bit of frustration among players who were used to and rely on this tactic.

Yes, the ability to seperate from a co-E situation has been diminished. That is clear. It is much harder to find the advantage now and she must be flown within a fairly narrow envelope. Within that envelope, however, she is still very good.

 

The biggest surprise for me was not the stall characteristics but the lessening of the elevator authority at high speed. It is much tougher to bring the nose around at all airspeeds now.

 

I'd be surprised if the Dev's didn't revisit her again with some minor tweaks. I honestly don't think it is that far off. Minor tweaks will make her dominant within a slightly broader envelope. Gotta keep hammering them and providing data though. It has proven to be the only way they move the needle - as it should.

Edited April 14, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Irgendjemand]

HerrMurf' timestamp='1460645348' post='349451'] It is much harder to find the advantage now

Id rather say impossible. No matter against wich russian plane (OK i exclude the I16). Co alt and E and somewhat equal pilotskill and youre toast if you do anything but keep flying in a straight line and hope youre already fling in direction "home":P

Edited April 14, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Wulf]

I wonder if it's possible the 190 just slipped through the cracks when it came to testing?  I mean, it just seems odd that the RLM  approved the mass production of a fighter that wasn't even as good as the 109, which by 1939 had already been in service for several years.  Just seems really strange that's all.   I mean, old Jerry usually has this reputation for thoroughness but in this case it looks like the RLM officials were all sleeping at their posts.  Weird but there it is...

[Matt]

Well, when they compared the A-2 to the F-4, it's not like they were extremely impressed by the A-2 and the plane was already in mass production by then. The engine (and with that the whole plane) was considered unreliable and inferior in areas like climb performance. Main advantages were better armament, sturdier airframe, lighter controls, faster rollrate. Of course we have the A-3 with better engine, but it's not like that outclassed the 109 either.

 

The 190 was not meant to completely replace the 109. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It never could have replaced the 109 because the later was already declared germanys main fighter type. Kurt Tank was not too impressed by it though, for him the 109 seemed to be more of a "racer" than a true fighter. Good in performence but weak in armarment and armour and equped with a flimsy engine. The concept of the 190 was to compensate for all the 109s lacks in pilot comfort, safety, armour protection and firewpower. The sacrifise in performence (which was no longer relevant in late war when 109s became heavier) was the price Tank payed for all that.

 

As much as pilot accounts differ it's impossible to say which one effectively was the better design.

[Venturi]

The Db6xx series were used for many A/C, were in high demand - the biggest advantage the 190 had over the 109 was that it used a totally different BMW engine, and thus freed up production of the Db engines for other airframes... which were badly in shortage after BoB and the Med/N Africa.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Fw-190 v Bf-109 case is one dilemma all major air forces faced in WW2: big, well-armoured and armed, heavy fighters against flimsy, more fragile and under gunned but nimbler fighters. P-47 v P-51, LaGG-3/La-5/La-7 v Yak-1/7/9/3 and so on. In the end they complement each other.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Reading this makes me wonder have people forgotten how to sissor. That's what you do in co E fight. The yak rolls horribly. Which is what most people fly. (Not I ) Granted sissors become more difficult if facing la or lagg. If you can't turn the table in a sissor you can at least buy about five minutes and hope for a friendly or wingman to clear your 6.

 

Good Lord, if you give a shoebox and big guns to some pilots they can come back with 3 kills. Lol